D
dcdurel
Guest
Moondweller wrote:
[QUOTERom 11:29 “…the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”]He’s not going to teach the opposite to the Corinthians. Nor did he. Salvation is “a GIFT of God…,” hence, irrevocable.
You are assuming Salvation means going to heaven. Salvation come from the word save, which means to be set free from evil. Jesus came to save us from our sins, which means to free us from the evil of sin. He does this by His grace which takes away our inclination to sin.
The Church teaches that Salvation is** “this great gift of God which is liberation from everything that oppresses man but which is above all liberation from sin and the Evil One, in the joy of knowing God and being known by Him, of seeing Him, and of being given over to Him.”** (Evangelization in the Modern World)
So it is true, that the gift of salvation that we receive, when we are baptized is irrevocable, that is, God will not take it back. BUT, salvation is liberation from the slavery of sin. It is not forcing us NOT to sin. After we have been freed from the compulsion, or slavery to sin, by grace, received through the sacraments and prayer, merited by Jesus, then we still have a free will to sin or not so sin. Thus, if we still choose to sin, after having been freed from the compulsion to sin, then we are worse off than before. And if we die unrepentant, then we ill end up in hell.
Protestants don’t really know the definition of salvation. They think it is going to heaven, or the assurance of going to heaven, or the right to go to heaven.
The Church defines it salvation as ** “this great gift of God which is liberation from everything that oppresses man but which is above all liberation from sin and the Evil One, in the joy of knowing God and being known by Him, of seeing Him, and of being given over to Him.”**
I have to repeat this over and over because this is the correct definition, the same definition the the apostles handed down to their successors, the Pope and the bishops of the Catholic Church. This definition fits all of St. Paul’s writings, who often referred to the Christians as having been saved, yet they could still end up in hell if they did not repent of the sins they were committing.
In other words, just because they have been set free from their compulsion to sin, does not mean they have lost their free will. Thus, all Christians who have been saved, still have a free will, and they can still choose to give into mortal sin, (such as fornication, adultery, promoting abortion, promoting sex outside of marriage, drunkeness, drug abuse, etc.) and if they die unrepentant, they are dying in rebellion against God, and thus they will reject heaven when they die, and thus will end up in hell. Even if they have received the grace of salvation at one point in their lives, then can still end up in hell. Grace is the favor of God’s life in our souls. When we give into mortal sin, we are in opposition to God and thus we reject His life in our soul. We reject His grace. He does not take it back. God will never take back His gift, but we can reject it, and thus end up in hell.
I started this thread, because I wanted to show that all that if all that is necessary to enter heaven is to repent of our mortal sins, then the primary reason Jesus founded a Church was to free us from the slavery and misery of sin, so that we can be happy here and now. In other words, before Jesus came, the Jews did not have salvation. They were not freed from their slavery to sin. That is why even the greatest and best Jews, such as Moses committed murder and David, who God called a man after my own heart, adultery and murder. Yes they repented and ended up in heaven, but their lives on earth were miserable because they were slaves to sin. They had the Law, but they didn’t have the grace to keep the Law. They could repent everytime they sinned, but they could not help sinning most of the time, so they were miserable. That is why Jesus said he came so set us free. He wanted us to be free from the slavery of sin, so that we could love Him and our neighbor the way we should, and thus have happiness on this earth.
Since all that is necessary to repent of our mortal sins, then all the rest of the Catholic faith, all the teachings and all the sacraments are not directed primarily to getting us to heaven, but they are primarily directed to our salvation, that is, directed to freeing us from the slavery of sin, so that we can start living holy and thus happy lives here and now.
Thus, Jesus became man primarily to free us from the misery and slavery of sin. So the whole Church was founded by Jesus to continue His work, of proclaiming the Gospel of salvation (liberation from the slavery of sin), and to make available the grace that saves us.
Thus while grace is a free gift that we cannot earn, we can reject this gift by mortal sin, and if die unrepentant we are dying in rebellion against God and thus we will reject heaven (where we would have to repent to enter) and choose hell.
Thus not only do some forms of Protestantism err in teaching we can die unrepentant and still end up in heaven, they almost all err in teaching that Salvation means primarily “going to heaven, or assurance of heaven or opening the gates of heaven”.
Salvation means to be freed from our concupiscence, from our inclination to sin, from our slavery to sin, from our compulsions to sin. That is the primary reason God became man.
[QUOTERom 11:29 “…the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”]He’s not going to teach the opposite to the Corinthians. Nor did he. Salvation is “a GIFT of God…,” hence, irrevocable.
You are assuming Salvation means going to heaven. Salvation come from the word save, which means to be set free from evil. Jesus came to save us from our sins, which means to free us from the evil of sin. He does this by His grace which takes away our inclination to sin.
The Church teaches that Salvation is** “this great gift of God which is liberation from everything that oppresses man but which is above all liberation from sin and the Evil One, in the joy of knowing God and being known by Him, of seeing Him, and of being given over to Him.”** (Evangelization in the Modern World)
So it is true, that the gift of salvation that we receive, when we are baptized is irrevocable, that is, God will not take it back. BUT, salvation is liberation from the slavery of sin. It is not forcing us NOT to sin. After we have been freed from the compulsion, or slavery to sin, by grace, received through the sacraments and prayer, merited by Jesus, then we still have a free will to sin or not so sin. Thus, if we still choose to sin, after having been freed from the compulsion to sin, then we are worse off than before. And if we die unrepentant, then we ill end up in hell.
Protestants don’t really know the definition of salvation. They think it is going to heaven, or the assurance of going to heaven, or the right to go to heaven.
The Church defines it salvation as ** “this great gift of God which is liberation from everything that oppresses man but which is above all liberation from sin and the Evil One, in the joy of knowing God and being known by Him, of seeing Him, and of being given over to Him.”**
I have to repeat this over and over because this is the correct definition, the same definition the the apostles handed down to their successors, the Pope and the bishops of the Catholic Church. This definition fits all of St. Paul’s writings, who often referred to the Christians as having been saved, yet they could still end up in hell if they did not repent of the sins they were committing.
In other words, just because they have been set free from their compulsion to sin, does not mean they have lost their free will. Thus, all Christians who have been saved, still have a free will, and they can still choose to give into mortal sin, (such as fornication, adultery, promoting abortion, promoting sex outside of marriage, drunkeness, drug abuse, etc.) and if they die unrepentant, they are dying in rebellion against God, and thus they will reject heaven when they die, and thus will end up in hell. Even if they have received the grace of salvation at one point in their lives, then can still end up in hell. Grace is the favor of God’s life in our souls. When we give into mortal sin, we are in opposition to God and thus we reject His life in our soul. We reject His grace. He does not take it back. God will never take back His gift, but we can reject it, and thus end up in hell.
I started this thread, because I wanted to show that all that if all that is necessary to enter heaven is to repent of our mortal sins, then the primary reason Jesus founded a Church was to free us from the slavery and misery of sin, so that we can be happy here and now. In other words, before Jesus came, the Jews did not have salvation. They were not freed from their slavery to sin. That is why even the greatest and best Jews, such as Moses committed murder and David, who God called a man after my own heart, adultery and murder. Yes they repented and ended up in heaven, but their lives on earth were miserable because they were slaves to sin. They had the Law, but they didn’t have the grace to keep the Law. They could repent everytime they sinned, but they could not help sinning most of the time, so they were miserable. That is why Jesus said he came so set us free. He wanted us to be free from the slavery of sin, so that we could love Him and our neighbor the way we should, and thus have happiness on this earth.
Since all that is necessary to repent of our mortal sins, then all the rest of the Catholic faith, all the teachings and all the sacraments are not directed primarily to getting us to heaven, but they are primarily directed to our salvation, that is, directed to freeing us from the slavery of sin, so that we can start living holy and thus happy lives here and now.
Thus, Jesus became man primarily to free us from the misery and slavery of sin. So the whole Church was founded by Jesus to continue His work, of proclaiming the Gospel of salvation (liberation from the slavery of sin), and to make available the grace that saves us.
Thus while grace is a free gift that we cannot earn, we can reject this gift by mortal sin, and if die unrepentant we are dying in rebellion against God and thus we will reject heaven (where we would have to repent to enter) and choose hell.
Thus not only do some forms of Protestantism err in teaching we can die unrepentant and still end up in heaven, they almost all err in teaching that Salvation means primarily “going to heaven, or assurance of heaven or opening the gates of heaven”.
Salvation means to be freed from our concupiscence, from our inclination to sin, from our slavery to sin, from our compulsions to sin. That is the primary reason God became man.
I have been enjoyed your posts - especially the sections from the book of Romans. It adds further validity, continuity and confirmation to the understanding that Pauls warnings in 1Cor 6, Gal 5 and Eph 5 were directed to “saved believers” regarding loss of inheriting the kingdom of God.