Where does that passage say anything about “treasures in heaven” or Catholic purgatory?
I’ll wait for your reply.
Do you know what they say about making assumptions?
You are putting words in my mouth. I never said God grades on a curve. Do you mind explaining what that means?
I never said anything like this. These are your words.
He was introducing grace. But he clearly reaffirmed the necessity of keeping God’s moral laws in the New Covenant.
Where is “grace” being introduced in that passage? Where does He say anything about keeping “moral” laws? Where is the term "moral laws" used in Scripture?
Right where I said it was. God doing for us what we can’t do on our own is grace.
verse 19
If you don’t like that term call it the Ten Commandments. It is found in Ex 20:2-17. Often times it is refered to as the moral law, because the second law (Ex 33-Num 10) is judicial and ceremonial, involving the punishment of criminals and the rules for animal sacrifice.
You’re essentially saying He does by postulating that God “helps” you to keep the 10 Commandments to the end that you might enter heaven (this is what you define as Divine "grace). You admit you have not kept all of them perfectly throughout your entire life, but you claim God Himself is helping you to achieve your best. And one day He’ll even help you to sell all your possessions and give the money the poor so that you’re assured of having eternal life. This is how you define salvation “by grace.” Or, IOW, salvation by works through God’s help. The more you submit to God’s “help” (grace: Divine empowerment to accomplish works) the better your chances of getting into heaven.
What Jesus was saying there is that with God salvation is possible. Not, “with God helping you” salvation is possible.
Rom 11:6 “*But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”*You’re confusing covenants. The Decalogue (10 Commandments) belongs to the Old Covenant, not the New.
So then you’re stating that entrance into heaven is by God “helping you” keep the 10 Commandments (although not perfectly). IOW, you’re postulating salvation by Law keeping. That is, by God helping you to keep the Law; which you define as “grace,” but in fact violates the Divine principle stated in Rom. 11:6 (quoted above).
I agree with the first part of your statement, and your conclusion. But the latter denies the former. If God requires proof then you’re stating salvation is by works, not by grace. And if God needs “proof” from you then you’re denying His omniscience:2 Tim 2:19 “Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His,”
I have essentially said no such thing. You are putting words in my mouth and assuming you have full knowledge of my thoughts and beliefs. If you want to have a conversation, why don’t you ask me what I think instead of telling me what I think? You did the same thing in the last thread and you never took the time to listen.
That goes without saying.
God’s salvation is him helping you, so don’t paint the definition of God’s help into a corner. You are putting words in my mouth.
And which works are Paul talking about? If you say all of them then you are wrong.
Wrong. Jesus fulfilled the Decalogue in Mt 5:21-43.
I’ve told you elsewhere that is not what I believe. So we are right back where we left of on the other thread-paradigms of grace and law.So then you’re stating that entrance into heaven is by God “helping you” keep the 10 Commandments (although not perfectly). IOW, you’re postulating salvation by Law keeping. That is, by God helping you to keep the Law; which you define as “grace,” but in fact violates the Divine principle stated in Rom. 11:6 (quoted above).
John 3:14-18 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.* He who believes in Him is not judged**; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God*.”
Especially if the modern-day Pharisees of the CAF (you know who you are
) were doing the judging!Ryan, you’re the one who quoted Mk. 10:17-21 in response to the subject matter of this thread. Why then did you quote that passage if you don’t believe the content of it applies to your own personal entrance into heaven?
Be careful that you don’t turn belief into a labor and then confuse the power of positive thinking for grace nor imagine that belief somehow escapes the necessity to obey Christ.
There’s never a fear of turning belief into a labor (a work), but rather that one confuses works with faith. True belief trusts only in the labor (work) of Another, the redemptive, sacrificial work of Jesus Christ alone, and rejoices in Paul’s words:Eph 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works (not by good works), which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.“Works are prepared only for those who "have been saved by grace” (alone) “through faith” (alone), i.e., “not as a result of works.”
The goal of God’s grace through faith in Christ Jesus is for those who believe to become “children of God,” no longer, by nature, children of wrath (Eph. 2:3):Gal 3:26 “For you are all sons of God (how?) through faith in Christ Jesus.”
Belief, or faith, rests in ALL Jesus DID on the cross on our behalf for our salvation. You’re correct in that true faith is not idle, it is outwardly demonstrated by works (Eph. 2:10; Ja. 2:14,18). But one is not saved by those works (according to the Scriptures) - salvation is not consummated by them. God Himself is the One who saves, and that by His grace “through faith” in Christ’s redemptive work, alone.Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”
Those Jews believed in Him as Messiah, they had yet to believe in Him as Savior. Jesus had not yet gone to the cross and the gospel of salvation through faith in Him (His Person and sacrificial work) had not yet been preached.
This was spoken to those who were already His and He would commission them to take to the world the gospel of salvation through faith in Him (Rom. 1:16-17).
The will of the Father is to believe in the Son. Notice those in Matt. 7:21ff did many works and claimed a right into the kingdom based on those works. But the response of Jesus was that He never knew them.
Heb 10:14 “For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”
That sounds very Catholic except that last part where the fuller teaching is that “salvation” is simultaneously a past, present and future even and can be lost if one does not keep themselves in grace and repent and be forgiven if they sin gravely.
Your chronology would seem reasonable except that you have an assumption that salvation is a one time event. There is no such concept in the bible as salvation being a one time event nor in there any in the apostolic teaching. We are taught that we must again repent and be forgiven for each and every grave sin committed after baptism.
Of course to prevent perverting the apostolic teaching it is important to understand that sanctification is normally a life long “process” and not a one-shot event that is only completed at death when one is crowned in glory in heaven. It’s clear from Acts 26:18 that “those who have been sanctified” are in heaven - it only becomes a past tense and done-deal in eternity.
