How to get used to the Ordinary Form of the Mass?

[zab]

How many points does a child earn for wearing neon sneakers when he/she serves Mass?

How about for wearing shorts with their hands jammed in their pockets during the Canon?

How about for resting their behinds on the pew instead of kneeling with posture?

How do I know parents aren’t teaching their children to behave? Because I see these above practices at almost every Novus Ordo Mass I attend. You see - these types of issues could be taken care of at home. I’m not talking strictly about the natural crying and yelling of young children at Mass. I’m talking about the downright APATHY of many parents when it comes to even attempting to instill in their children a recognition of the solemnity of the Mass. How hard would it be to make a rule that says “no neon sneakers at Mass”? And I am convinced that this apathy for the behavior of children is a direct result of the over exposure of their parents to “spirit of Vatican II” Liturgy.

Once again - this is not an indictment of all parents and their children or of the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass. It is simply an observation that I have made.

As for the debate about Gregorian Chant - its a tired one and I’m aware that you and I have differing opinions on the matter regarding the practicalities of its implementation, so I’m just going to let it go.

When one of my daughters was in parochial school, she occasionally sneaked off to school wearing the wrong color of socks, but she never got in trouble. And the times that I did catch her, she replied that the teachers and principal didn’t care. Sometimes parents could use a little support from teachers and pastors in trying to enforce the dress code rules that they set. Why didn’t you ask the question- Why did the priest allow the child to serve Mass when he was not dressed appropriately? It is so easy to criticize everyone else. You don’t know that the parents have apathy. You don’t know their hearts or the difficulties that they have.

 

[ProVobis]

I think there are plenty of people who uphold Vatican II who DO ask their pastors to please implement teaching about chant.

And I think that in most cases, the pastors say that there is no one in the parish who knows how to sing chant, how to find and purchase chant, and how to teach the congregation.

This is no lie. Most people in the U.S. can’t even carry a tune, let alone do chant. I am a trained musician (piano/organ), and I can’t begin to chant.

No, no. You didn’t understand what I said. What I am telling you is to step up and volunteer, not just tell the pastor to tell other people besides you to volunteer.

If you love chant, YOU do it! YOU start the schola (or find someone who is capable of starting one). YOU pay for it. YOU buy the music.

If you aren’t willing to do it, since you love it so much, then don’t expect others who know nothing about chant to pick it up for you.

After several years of reading posts here on CAF about the need for more pipe organ in the Catholic Church, I started pipe organ lessons at the age of 53. I pay $250.00 month to take these lessons (remember, I’m getting closer to retirement and probably should be stashing that money in my retirement fund).

So do as I do, not just as I say!

Cat, I think it would be unreasonable for congregations to sing the antiphons as chants, the way they’re written anyway. I would say the best they could do is to come in at the “Gloria Patri et Filio et…” and let the choir (of 1 or 2 or more) finish it off. If they don’t have the chanters to do it, they don’t do it.

OTOH, I don’t think it would be unreasonable to ask the congregation to sing Credo III or the Pater Noster, such as they did with Pope Benedict saying the Mass at Yankee Stadium. An organist can accompany that. They can always find these on youtube, the new tool for learning such things.

 

[OraLabora]

Cat, I think it would be unreasonable for congregations to sing the antiphons as chants, the way they’re written anyway. I would say the best they could do is to come in at the “Gloria Patri et Filio et…” and let the choir (of 1 or 2 or more) finish it off. If they don’t have the chanters to do it, they don’t do it.

OTOH, I don’t think it would be unreasonable to ask the congregation to sing Credo III or the Pater Noster, such as they did with Pope Benedict saying the Mass at Yankee Stadium. An organist can accompany that. They can always find these on youtube, the new tool for learning such things.

We did do what Cat asks, we formed a schola. Or rather some gentlemen formed a schola that I eventually joined. We do chant once a month at a Saturday evening Mass, at a different parish in the city of Sherbrooke, Quebec. I’ve been singing with them for 12 years.

The schola does the propers but we typically use the easier settings for the Ordinary (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Angus Dei) to encourage participation and many do in fact chant along. It’s not that tough, though we’re trying to wean folks off the Kyrie/Gloria VIII and Credo III diet, so at our next Mass we will do Kyrie XIB which is fairly manageable and fairly well known.

One point I should mention, the Graduale Romanum doesn’t specify the Gloria Patri as part of the psalmody of the propers in the OF.

You can as you say find a lot of material to practice on YouTube. Look up one Giovanni Vianini. He’s recorded a huge chunk of chant. Propers, ordinary, Ambrosian chant, hymns from the Divine Office, etc.

One easier option for less experienced choirs where the congregation might have more luck, is the Graduale Simplex. The antiphons are simpler (many from the Divine Office) and the psalmody is always on the simple rather than solemn mode that the GR uses.

 

[ProVobis]

One point I should mention, the Graduale Romanum doesn’t specify the Gloria Patri as part of the psalmody of the propers in the OF.

You’re right. It might be only for the Introit where the psalm is stated, then followed by the Gloria Patri, then the psalm (or the first part) is repeated. Very few in the congregation pick up on it, even in the vernacular.

In the EF, the Asperges Me, Psalm 42, and the Lavabo follow this format.

 

[babochka]

How many points does a child earn for wearing neon sneakers when he/she serves Mass?

How about for wearing shorts with their hands jammed in their pockets during the Canon?

How about for resting their behinds on the pew instead of kneeling with posture?

Wow. I’m glad you weren’t sitting behind me at Mass last Sunday. We attended Mass at a parish that was not our own because a friend’s baby was being baptized after Mass. My husband and I arrived right before Mass and had difficulty finding seats together for our family of 7. He sat with one child, I got the other 4. I got the better deal. He sat with our “problem child”. My kids, ranging from 4 to 12 were wiggly and squirmy. They aren’t used to the silence and stillness of the Roman Rite. They experience movement and near-constant singing in our own church. They don’t know how to quietly put down a kneeler and not to constantly play with them. And one of the kneelers squeaked. My goodness, it squeaked. Every single time my 6 year old wiggled, it squeaked. I was so self-conscious. I tried to stop her from wiggling, but she was three kids down from me and I was on my own, without my husband. Besides, she’s a wiggly kids. She was doing her best. I’m not sure I could have done much better, other than to have her sit next to me, but I was busy with the 4 year old. He is exceptionally well behaved in church, but he is still 4. I wasn’t kneeling because of the pregnancy and the knee. I tired kneeling, but there just wasn’t enough space for my belly if I knelt on the kneeler. I tried kneeling on the floor without the kneeler, but it was quite a spectacle watching me get up. I decided it was better if I didn’t kneel. I suppose I was not showing proper reverence and setting a good example for the kids.

But even in our home church, it isn’t perfect. My kids seem to think that they need to lean their whole bodies over the pew because standing is just too hard. I correct them for this 20-30 times every liturgy. Sometimes, I miss it because I’m praying. I’m pregnant with a sprained knee, so I do a lot of sitting when we should be standing. My kids seem to think that means they can sit, too. I make them stand up again, multiple times each liturgy. Sometimes, they squabble with each other for accidental elbow bumping, breathing wrong, etc… We make the sign of the cross about 20 times each liturgy. My kids need to be reminded most of the time. There are 5 of them and 2 of us. We can’t get to them all. No perfect reverence in those kids yet, but we’re working on it. The worst part, though, is at the end. The last thing we sing, a very upbeat song, gets him going. He bounces and dances because his little body can’t help it. It signals the end of a liturgy in which he has had to sit reasonable still for nearly an hour and a half. It is actually pretty cute, but I remind him every single Sunday that church isn’t the place for dancing. I know he’ll get it eventually. All of my children have done it. The song practically begs for bouncing if you’re under 5. Teaching children reverence takes time. You probably don’t see the teaching that is going on all the time. Some parents are better at it than others. Some children are more receptive than others. Nevertheless, the process takes years.

By the way, we have never used cry rooms unless we have an actual crying baby. They are the absolute worst places to try to teach appropriate Mass behavior. Even in “good” ones, where you can see and hear the Mass and the parents don’t snacks, and kids aren’t crawling around playing with cars and trains on the floor, the only models for behavior the kids see are other little kids. While that might give you a quiet and peaceful experience, it is not the way to accomplish the long term goal of teaching children to behave well in church.

 

[Cat]

We did do what Cat asks, we formed a schola. Or rather some gentlemen formed a schola that I eventually joined. We do chant once a month at a Saturday evening Mass, at a different parish in the city of Sherbrooke, Quebec. I’ve been singing with them for 12 years.

The schola does the propers but we typically use the easier settings for the Ordinary (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Angus Dei) to encourage participation and many do in fact chant along. It’s not that tough, though we’re trying to wean folks off the Kyrie/Gloria VIII and Credo III diet, so at our next Mass we will do Kyrie XIB which is fairly manageable and fairly well known.

One point I should mention, the Graduale Romanum doesn’t specify the Gloria Patri as part of the psalmody of the propers in the OF.

You can as you say find a lot of material to practice on YouTube. Look up one Giovanni Vianini. He’s recorded a huge chunk of chant. Propers, ordinary, Ambrosian chant, hymns from the Divine Office, etc.

One easier option for less experienced choirs where the congregation might have more luck, is the Graduale Simplex. The antiphons are simpler (many from the Divine Office) and the psalmody is always on the simple rather than solemn mode that the GR uses.

Good for you and your friends! It sounds really good, and it sounds like all of you have learned lots and have gotten to the place where you could conceivably help others. Perhaps you should consider writing a short book called How We Did It–Bringing Chant Back to the OF Mass, in which you share all that you have learned and all your resources. I think it would be a popular book.

I think a lot of congregations just lack the one person who is capable of becoming a resource person when it comes to chant. That’s why it’s not done, Pro Vobis. SOMEONE has to take the lead. It’s not just a question of saying, “It should be possible.” Of course it is, but SOMEONE has to step up and actually DO SOMETHING, not just talk and sigh.

I’m not that person, BTW. I really dislike chant and would be just as glad to never see it done. Besides, I’m already stretched too thin with all my accompanying work and organ practice and community involvement. But in our parish of 7000, there must be SOMEONE who could wake up and get to work, and who has the TIME to get to work on gradually bringing more chant into our Masses. If that person is smart, they would woo me and convince me to come and practice with the group–that’s the best way to make progress–win over your adversaries! (To be honest, Pro Vobis and others, I don’t see it happening. I think 99% our congregation is very much like me–not fond of chant. There is a daily Latin Mass in our city, and I think most people who really love chant go there, and more power to them!)

I think this is the best way to approach the issue of trying to bring the Mass into line with the Vatican II documents (as we laypeople interpret the documents, anyway) --don’t change the Mass, but rather, change ourselves. Less talk, more action.

 

[Cat]

Well, thank you Cat. I needed that.

I apologize for my uncharitable words. There’s nothing else to say about that, really.

This certainly puts things in perspective. The Spirit of Vatican II is well established and seems here to stay. I guess all we curmudgeons can do is deal with it and try not to scandalize anyone else.

Just with regards to choir director->priest->bishop->Christ, don’t you think you’re going a little too far? There can be bad bishops who don’t model Christ, surely. The same goes for priests, choir masters, and everyone else. Simply having a beef against a diocese doesn’t mean having something against Christ, unless you are very strongly saying that His Providence has arranged things to be like this. I wonder which image of Jesus is the true one.

Praedicare, I came from the Evangelical Protestant churches (converted at age 47 to Catholicism).

So I have a different perspective from many Catholics.

The #1 reason that we converted to Catholicism (my husband and I, and also our daughter) was that we came to realize, through study, and through the work of the Holy Spirit, that the Catholic Church is THE Church that Jesus Christ Himself established, and that the Catholic Church has been given the Authority on this earth by Jesus.

In the various Evangelical Protestant churches that we were members of over the years, there is no God-established authority. Each denomination (or non-denomination) handles authority differently.

In the Conference Baptist denomination that I grew up in, the Pastor and the Church Board of Deacons are the authorities. The pastor must have the approval of the Church Board (which is elected). And if a new pastor is called, the ENTIRE congregation votes, so THEY have the authority.

In the Christian church (Campbellite), the Elders are the authorities, and the pastor is just one of the Elders.

In the Evangelical Free Church, we never did figure out who is actually in charge, and this led to confusion and frustration on our part, and our eventual ousting from the church under the charge of “refusing to submit to church authority.” It was a horrific experience that still affects everything I do and think.

So you see, I’ve come from a church background with authority in name only. In reality, each individual is in charge, and each individual is free to come and go from any church or to regard or disregard any church policy.

As you know, this leads to chaos and self-centeredness and a confusion as to what God really teaches. We have at least 300 Protestant denominations and many non-denominational fellowships, and some Catholics say as many as 33,000 denominations. (I strongly disagree with this and think it’s based on “funny math” that can be easily disproved by a competent statistician).

To me, the strength of the Catholic Church is Her Authority, and I think that Catholics need to be extremely cautious about finding the balance between “having a beef” and “criticizing authority.”

I think that there are many Catholics who started out just “questioning” their priest or bishop, but ended up leaving the Church entirely when they decided that they simply couldn’t accept the Church’s teachings on various issues.

I also think that many Catholics begin their descent into non-Catholicism by doubting and murmuring about their own priest and his tolerance of certain Mass Mass music, or some other relatively non-important issue.

Then they start thinking some very dark thoughts–their doubts cause them to begin to question the priest on other issues; e.g., pre-marital sex, abortion, same-sex marriage, etc. (After all, if the priest is so wrong about Mass music, then he could possibly be wrong about these other issues, right?)

And then they start questioning the Church–after all, the priest is appointed by the Church, and if HE’S wrong, then maybe the Church is wrong…

…and that’s when people start missing Mass, visiting other churches, or simply giving up on “organized religion.”

It all starts with questioning the Authority of the Catholic Church.

It’s a really, really REALLY thin line to walk on, and many Catholics cannot manage to find their balance, and their complaint about Mass music eventually leads them into rejecting their Church.

I think that laypeople who “question” the priest or bishop need to spend many hours in prayer to make darned sure that they are in the will of God.

They also need to talk directly to the priest, and even the bishop if it’s possible. This talking in the dark, behind the hands, is very dangerous, because the one accused is unable to defend himself and point out where the lay person has misinterpreted the documents due to lack of education in the things of the Church.

I also think that laypeople who “question” the priest or bishop should seek the counsel of older, wiser, more experienced Catholic laypeople and stick with them to be mentored. The Bible, especially the various wisdom books (e.g., Proverbs, Sirach, etc.) is FULL of admonitions to seek the mentorship of older, wiser people of God. This is a good way to make sure that we’re not just running off in our own personal directions and endangering our souls in the process.

Many of the more traditional-leaning Catholics rightly bemoan the lack of reverence for Jesus Christ. IMO, the BEST way we can show reverence for Jesus Christ is to show reverence and respect for His priests and bishops, and obey them unless they ask us to sin.

I hope this post explains my rather non-bending approach to authority in the Catholic Church.

 

[OraLabora]

Good for you and your friends! It sounds really good, and it sounds like all of you have learned lots and have gotten to the place where you could conceivably help others. Perhaps you should consider writing a short book called How We Did It–Bringing Chant Back to the OF Mass, in which you share all that you have learned and all your resources. I think it would be a popular book.

I think a lot of congregations just lack the one person who is capable of becoming a resource person when it comes to chant. That’s why it’s not done, Pro Vobis. SOMEONE has to take the lead. It’s not just a question of saying, “It should be possible.” Of course it is, but SOMEONE has to step up and actually DO SOMETHING, not just talk and sigh.

I’m not that person, BTW. I really dislike chant and would be just as glad to never see it done. Besides, I’m already stretched too thin with all my accompanying work and organ practice and community involvement. But in our parish of 7000, there must be SOMEONE who could wake up and get to work, and who has the TIME to get to work on gradually bringing more chant into our Masses. If that person is smart, they would woo me and convince me to come and practice with the group–that’s the best way to make progress–win over your adversaries! (To be honest, Pro Vobis and others, I don’t see it happening. I think 99% our congregation is very much like me–not fond of chant. There is a daily Latin Mass in our city, and I think most people who really love chant go there, and more power to them!)

I think this is the best way to approach the issue of trying to bring the Mass into line with the Vatican II documents (as we laypeople interpret the documents, anyway) --don’t change the Mass, but rather, change ourselves. Less talk, more action.

Didn’t write a book, but I’m a member and past director of the Gregorian Institute of Canada and did write a paper about the new Antiphonale Romanum (Gregorian chant antiphonary for the current, post-VII Liturgy of the Hours; the first volume is Vespers of Sundays, feasts and solemnities through the year). I presented it at our annual colloquium in 2010.

I’d post a link to the article but then I’d bust my anonymity on this forum…

Our schola, I should point out, also does Vespers and Lauds in Gregorian chant from time to time particularly in Advent and Lent. We also do concerts, sing for funerals, at parish anniversaries, etc.

 

[ProVobis]

To me, the strength of the Catholic Church is Her Authority, and I think that Catholics need to be extremely cautious about finding the balance between “having a beef” and “criticizing authority.”

I think that there are many Catholics who started out just “questioning” their priest or bishop, but ended up leaving the Church entirely when they decided that they simply couldn’t accept the Church’s teachings on various issues.

I also think that many Catholics begin their descent into non-Catholicism by doubting and murmuring about their own priest and his tolerance of certain Mass Mass music, or some other relatively non-important issue.

Again, priests get reassigned all the time. So do bishops. And Popes resign. Questioning one priest or bishop doesn’t necessarily make one a bad Catholic. Neither is trying to change the way things are done in the parish. I understand that since 1964 or so, the 4-hymn format was started and effectively replaced the antiphons which were never abrogated. If the parishes want that fine. If they’re good with that and rack up large attendance numbers, probably no bishop or pastor will seek to “rock the boat.” So, in one sense, it’s a matter of economics. But there wlll never be unanimous approval of the music that is selected for one given Sunday for that parish. And given a choice, many Catholics would prefer not to attend at all, but they have to attend out of obligation. I think most music directors should be keenly aware of that and try not to instill their preferences over the congregations.

 

[ProVobis]

To me, the strength of the Catholic Church is Her Authority, and I think that Catholics need to be extremely cautious about finding the balance between “having a beef” and “criticizing authority.”

I think that there are many Catholics who started out just “questioning” their priest or bishop, but ended up leaving the Church entirely when they decided that they simply couldn’t accept the Church’s teachings on various issues.

I also think that many Catholics begin their descent into non-Catholicism by doubting and murmuring about their own priest and his tolerance of certain Mass Mass music, or some other relatively non-important issue.

Is this really true, though? I have gone back to some of the parishes I frequented back in the 70’s and 80’s. They do things basically the same way today, in spite of the many pastors (under several bishops) which have administered their parishes over the years. Who really sets the “rules” of the parish?