How to Handle Liturgical Dancers

[Marauder]

Michael Welter:

I find neither dancing or clapping for God inappropriate.

It does depend on when you are dancing. The Vatican has come out and said that dancing within Mass in the Western church is inappropriate. Clapping has not been expressly forbidden by the Church, but liturgical dance has been forbidden in the western church during Mass.

 

[Michael_Welter]

Marauder:

It does depend on when you are dancing.

Yes, I agree completely.

Marauder:

The Vatican has come out and said that dancing within Mass in the Western church is inappropriate.

Where is that documented?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

There is no documentation that says, SPECIFICALLY, that we should not do cartwheels in church, or play harmonicas, or pick our noses.

There is no documentation that says that cartwheels are NOT part of worship. There is SOME documentation that harmonicas wouldn’t exactly be considered appropriate instruments, but I can verify that there are parishes that will ignore that documentation because the language of “appropriate” is JUST vague enough that one could make a case of special pleading. And while most people would find “nose pickers” lacking in couth, they really can’t say, “thou shalt not nose pick” is WRITTEN DOCTRINE.

1. Therefore, if I “feel” the need to do a cartwheel in church, should I go ahead and do it? 2. If I want to do a Harmonica solo for “On Eagles’ Wings”, may I? 3. If I have a really blocked up sinus, can’t I dig?

Answers: 1. No, never. 2. You shouldn’t, but you might be allowed to in certain churches on a “technicality”. 3. Even the most charitable people would find this behavior at best uncouth and at worst stomach turning.

So, what’s all this with “written documentation?” Since when did plain common sense go so far by the wayside that we not only need to list EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE THING we CAN do, but we ALSO need to list EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE THING we CAN’T do???

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Originally Posted by Marauder
The Vatican has come out and said that dancing within Mass in the Western church is inappropriate.
Where is that documented?

Redemptoris Sacramentum. Came out in April, 2003. I believe the full text of the document can be found at either Vatican.org or somewhere on the USCCB site.

 

[Marauder]

Michael Welter:

Where is that [litrugical dance prohibited] documented?

Actually it wasn’t GIRM or RS the prohibitted it. It was the document.

Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Notitiae, 1975, 11, pp. 202-5

See the following link where EWTN talks about it not being allowed in the Western Church.

Link

Also see the following link where the Catholic Answer apologists address the same issue. Link

 

[space_ghost]

chicago:

Be careful, they might break out into liturgical tug of war!

now, now, let be inclusive…

great post

 

[Lamb100]

About that video–ouch! Can we say “white boys can’t (liturgical) dance?”
Seriously, Alex Jones, recently on EWTN’s “The Journey Home” expressed the hope that someday black churches would be allowed to show more expression in worship–I think he was referring to music, though–can’t remember for sure–he talked about how incredibly beautiful and holy the African masses were he’s attended. However, his bishop won’t allow it, and he obeys the bishop. Still, he’s hopeful, and I agree–I love African/African-American music and dance, and think it would be entirely appropriate.

I’m of mixed opinions about this whole topic in general, though. As a new convert, I’ve certainly enjoyed “lifting up my hands” and sort of swaying back and forth to the Lifeteen music (can’t help it–I love it). And from my own perspective, it’s very “vertical” and expresses my love of God. Still–when you see it on a video–oh, boy–does that ever look silly.

Here’s one that ought to get some discussion going. At our church recently, and I think it was during announcements, but they have a tendency to do stuff like this after the homily–anyway–the deacon announced joyfully that the Vatican has given us this wonderful new opportunity for the laity to be involved by being eucharistic ministers (what year does he think he’s living in–lol!)–he may have said extraordinary ministers–but anyway–I thought that was a real interesting spin on what the Vatican *really said:whacky: --it was his intro for giving out certificates to a new crop of EMHCs. After each one, as the person went up, the congregation applauded. It annoyed me mightily, but then in the interests of humility and fairness, I have to admit that if it were me, the affirmation by others in the church would be really, really nice. Still, it feels very wrong. aargh!! Thought you all might get a kick out of that one. Still, I’m a new Catholic. Maybe this is standard operating procedure?

By the way–I have a legal background–love that “special pleading”–that is so true. No one really listens to anything the Vatican says. Redemptionis Sacramentum is totally ignored, as far as I can tell.

 

[Michael_Welter]

Lamb100:

As a new convert, I’ve certainly enjoyed “lifting up my hands” and sort of swaying back and forth to the Lifeteen music (can’t help it–I love it). And from my own perspective, it’s very “vertical” and expresses my love of God. Still–when you see it on a video–oh, boy–does that ever look silly.

I can totally relate. I run the sound for our LifeTeen Mass, and I, too, love to raise my hands and move to the music. I often find myself completely wrapped up in God’s loving arms. It’s awesome. Yeah, maybe it looks silly on video, but I don’t care. I’m not there for the camera.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Iohannes:

What happens when the priest decides to do some dancing?

churchbuilding.com/interactive/swf/html/sn_procession.html

Well now. That was certainly different.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Iohannes:

Clapping is innapropriate for church setting.

Guess that would depend on why one is clapping.

Recently the pastor at my parish gave an AWESOME homily! Afterwards a man tearfully called out “Thank you Father!” and the congregation spontanteously broke out into applause. It’s nothing I’ve ever seen or will probably ever see again, but at the moment is was very appropriate! It WAS a great homily and the congragation had been moved greatly!!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Tantum ergo:

There is no documentation that says, SPECIFICALLY, that we should not do cartwheels in church, or play harmonicas, or pick our noses.

There is no documentation that says that cartwheels are NOT part of worship. There is SOME documentation that harmonicas wouldn’t exactly be considered appropriate instruments, but I can verify that there are parishes that will ignore that documentation because the language of “appropriate” is JUST vague enough that one could make a case of special pleading. And while most people would find “nose pickers” lacking in couth, they really can’t say, “thou shalt not nose pick” is WRITTEN DOCTRINE.

1. Therefore, if I “feel” the need to do a cartwheel in church, should I go ahead and do it? 2. If I want to do a Harmonica solo for “On Eagles’ Wings”, may I? 3. If I have a really blocked up sinus, can’t I dig?

Answers: 1. No, never. 2. You shouldn’t, but you might be allowed to in certain churches on a “technicality”. 3. Even the most charitable people would find this behavior at best uncouth and at worst stomach turning.

So, what’s all this with “written documentation?” Since when did plain common sense go so far by the wayside that we not only need to list EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE THING we CAN do, but we ALSO need to list EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE THING we CAN’T do???

 

[Iohannes]

Catholic4aReasn:

Guess that would depend on why one is clapping.

Recently the pastor at my parish gave an AWESOME homily! Afterwards a man tearfully called out “Thank you Father!” and the congregation spontanteously broke out into applause. It’s nothing I’ve ever seen or will probably ever see again, but at the moment is was very appropriate! It WAS a great homily and the congragation had been moved greatly!!

In Christ,
Nancy

During the Homily, the Mass is suspended, there maybe room for clapping but it is probally not a good idea to clap. However, that video had them clapping during Mass which is clearly inappropriate.

 

[Iohannes]

Michael Welter:

I can totally relate. I run the sound for our LifeTeen Mass, and I, too, love to raise my hands and move to the music. I often find myself completely wrapped up in God’s loving arms. It’s awesome. Yeah, maybe it looks silly on video, but I don’t care. I’m not there for the camera.

“Move to the music” ahh that explains it there.

 

[mark_a]

All right. I give up. What are liturgical dancers? If it’s what it sounds like, and I hope it’s not, it sounds like the stupidest thing I’ve heard up to this point in my life.

 

[Lamb100]

Re: post #28–oops, Michael–when I re-read what I wrote I saw it was misleading–I didn’t mean the Lifeteen mass looked silly–I meant that goofy video with the dancing priest and banner-carrier, especially the banner carrier . Sorry! I love the youthful energy of Lifeteen and think it all looks great, too.

Talking about Lifeteen, on a related note–sometimes people say they shouldn’t gather around the altar (although it doesn’t happen at our church). When I was a very very new Catholic, I was on a cruise ship. We were lucky enough to have a priest on board and it was just heaven–Mass every day! At the time, we were invited to gather around the altar table with the priest. Of course, I suppose it is a little hard to tell where the sanctuary actually begins and ends (since Mass was in the bar and the altar area was normally a dance floor–pretty ironic, huh?), but I remember having a debate, maybe on this board, complaining that I thought it was wonderful and holy to be so close to the Lord (kind of overwhelming, really)–everyone was very reverent. I was set straight very kindly but firmly that this was a definite abuse and they explained why (making the laity feel like our role wasn’t good enough without being up there with the priest). I strongly disagreed; it took me awhile to come around, but I can really see it now. Even though it was lovely, I definitely entertained uncharitable thoughts about all the people who didn’t come up to the front–I definitely was comparing myself to them. Of course–in God’s eyes–this is a terrible sacrilege…at least I didn’t do it knowing it was wrong–but my self-righteous thoughts are another matter. That gave me a real respect for following the rubrics…

In Christ,
Donna