How to know God

[gerhardc]

I am a Baptist going through a Catholic chaplaincy course.

Some months ago I watch “The Monastery” on BBC Knowledge where they had a group of unbelievers or non-Catholics stay in a monastery for a period of 6 weeks, I think. Something that was said there by one of the priests intrigues me; ‘You have to truly know yourself before you can truly know God’. He ascribed this saying to a Catholic writer / leader whose name I cannot remember.

Can anyone explain this saying (or “rule”) a little better and also advise who the above quote may be ascribed to?

 

[Moscati]

Something like it is attributed to Henri Nouwen:

“The more you come to know yourself - spirit, mind, and body - as truly loved, the freer you will be to proclaim the good news. That is the freedom of the children of God.”

Your quote sounds like something Nouwen might say, or perhaps Thomas Merton?

 

[awatkins69]

I am currently going through something called “Total Consecration”, which I will not take the time to explain right now. It is basically voluntary enslavement of yourself to Jesus. During the first week before consecration you are supposed to meditate on knowing yourself. What we have to do is realize how lowly we are. “Remember, man, dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return”. We must also remember how wretched we are and that we cannot be good without God’s grace. By focusing on this part of ourselves, we humble ourselves by remembering that any merit we have comes from God and that our whole existence depends on God. We are really like nothing. Some may consider this to be morbid, but it is true. And this is what knowing ourselves does. It keeps us humbles so that we can more perfectly turn to God and trust completely in Him.

 

[gerhardc]

The notion that we need to humble ourselves before Almighty God is not foreign to me. It is when we rid ourselves of self reliance that we can truly be dependent on God. Dependence on God and reliance on His Word is the basis of our faith. We are saved through faith, and, I believe, we may lose our salvation if we were to let go of that reliance on God.

What I struggle with is the notion that we cannot truly know God until we know ourselves. Surely, if this was an accurate assertion then Paul would not have come to a radical turn-around in his life and thus serve the Master. He came to know God in an instant on the road to Damascus. It can be said, however, that he only learnt the mysteries of God over a long period of time.

Perhaps the statement that was made was merely a “rule” of the monastery in which the TV series was filmed?

I will suggest that, in fact, it works the other way around; you only truly know yourself once you get to learn to know God. Because His Word is the mirror in which you see yourself sin and in which you see yourself being out of character with His person. His light causes you to see the shadow which you cast.

The need to know yourself is not denied. However, the notion that you can only truly know God if you know yourself sets people off on a journey to first ‘discover self’ in an attempt to *eventually *know God. Not only does this resemble Buddist thinking, it seems contrary to Jesus’ teaching and is not supported by Paul’s radical transformation. No?

 

[awatkins69]

Of course instant conversion and faith is something God grants to a very few people. However, in general, coming to God is a process. We must “work out our salvation” as St. Paul says. Now, don’t get this wrong. This is not some kind of Buddhist, New Age thing (though if the series included Thomas Merton, it may have been).

When we talk about this we’re not starting off with a clean slate or anything. It is one thing to know God in an intellectual way, such as doctrines, the Bible, philosophy etc. It is another thing to *know *God. Do you know what I mean? Hopefully this makes sense what I am trying to get across.

We do not start off asking basic questions about God. That’s something else entirely. We start off with the goal in mind of wanting to know God and His Son Jesus Christ. And in order to more perfectly *know *God we must know about ourselves. We truly *know *that we are dependent on His grace for everything. We must reflect on our miserable condition. We must ask for a knowledge of ourselves and contrition for our sins. We must know and be strongly convinced of our misery and helplessness. Only then can we truly begin to *know *God. Sorry if I can’t do a very good job of getting these things across. God bless.

 

[gerhardc]

Thanks for pointing out Merton. I understand the need for us to recognise our helplessness without God. That leads to true repentance, which leads to forgiveness and salvation. But thats not the same as saying you need to know self before knowing God.

Biblical accounts suggests that instant salvation was not only the norm during Jesus’ ministry it remained that way after His ascention. Suggestions to the contrary is not supported by Scripture.

The book of Proverbs tells us that ‘the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge’. The focus is on God, not on self.

1 john 2:3 tells us how we can know if we know Him (if we do His commandments). Again, the focus is on Him not self.

If we know Scripture we can do what Jesus said we should do. And if we do what He said we should do we may know that we know Him (refer 1 John 2:3).

The key is not to know yourself but to know Scripture. Pursuing a knowledge of self puts the focus on you not the incarnate Word of God - Jesus.

 

[awatkins69]

Don’t get me wrong. It’s not all about us. That is not what I am saying. My main point is that we must recognize our helplessness without God and our need for His mercy. All of our efforts must always be directed toward Jesus. This is what is usually meant by “knowing yourself”. And not only that, but we must truly repent with all our “heart, soul, mind and strength”. I would also posit that it isn’t even so much about knowing Scripture. It is about knowing God. Knowing Scripture is a means to our final goal of knowing Jesus.

If it was Thomas Merton, then he may have meant something different. I would avoid his opinion on most things pertaining to Faith.

 

[puzzleannie]

this concept is also part of the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius so has roots in traditional Christian spirituality

 

[gerhardc]

If we say that we need a true understanding of our helplessness without God then we agree. If we say that we need to humble ourselves before the Lord then we agree. If we say that we need to have a reverend fear of the Lord out of love and submission to Him then we agree. If we say that to know Jesus is to know God then we agree. Because Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit always agree.

If we say that knowing Jesus comes primarily from knowing and doing Scripture then we agree. Because, from Scripture it is evident that Paul became increasingly humble in submission to Christ as the years passed.

But if we say that to know God comes through knowing self then we do not agree. We appear to differ on the role of repentance in knowing God. From Scripture repentance leads to forgiveness, which leads to salvation. Nowhere does it say ‘the deeper your repentance the more you will know God’. Such doctrine is man-made.

What Scripture does say is that if you know Scripture you may know the way. And if you know the way you may know God. Not to be confused with knowing God academically. The difference being in doing the things Jesus did in the Spirit in which He did it.

Refer Matt 22 where Jesus says ‘your error is that you do not know the Scriptures and you do not know the power of God’. Knowing God and His power starts with fearing Him and doing His will as given to us in Scripture. Holy Scripture that is, not man-made wisdom.

What

 

[gerhardc]

I need to look up on St Ignatius. Pardom my ignorance but of what significance is he?

So far I have not seen how his saying has a basis in Scripture. Is that okay, can men make up their own version of Truth or is Truth only found in the Holy Scriptures? Refer Matt 22 as noted above.

 

[piejesu]

I need to look up on St Ignatius. Pardom my ignorance but of what significance is he?

Most Twelve Step programs are modeled after the spirituality exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola.

 

[awatkins69]

If we say that we need a true understanding of our helplessness without God then we agree. If we say that we need to humble ourselves before the Lord then we agree. If we say that we need to have a reverend fear of the Lord out of love and submission to Him then we agree. If we say that to know Jesus is to know God then we agree. Because Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit always agree.

If we say that knowing Jesus comes primarily from knowing and doing Scripture then we agree. Because, from Scripture it is evident that Paul became increasingly humble in submission to Christ as the years passed.

But if we say that to know God comes through knowing self then we do not agree. We appear to differ on the role of repentance in knowing God. From Scripture repentance leads to forgiveness, which leads to salvation. Nowhere does it say ‘the deeper your repentance the more you will know God’. Such doctrine is man-made.

We agree. To know yourself IS to know your lowliness, need for repentance, and Jesus. They are not different things. At least, that’s what I’m thinking of.

As for Sola Scriptura, this wouldn’t be the appropriate thread for discussion of that.

 

[Todd_Easton]

An Internet search produced the following results:

The notion apparently pre-dates Christianity, source.

Clement of Alexandria (d. A.D. 217) was an early Christian writer on the subject:
It is then, as appears, the greatest of all lessons to know one’s self. For if one knows himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God, not by wearing gold or long robes, but by well-doing, and by requiring as few things as possible. (, book 3, chapter 1, paragraph 1The Instructor)

 

[Moscati]

An Internet search produced the following results:

The notion apparently pre-dates Christianity, source.

Clement of Alexandria (d. A.D. 217) was an early Christian writer on the subject:
It is then, as appears, the greatest of all lessons to know one’s self. For if one knows himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God, not by wearing gold or long robes, but by well-doing, and by requiring as few things as possible. (Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, book 3, chapter 1, paragraph 1)

Interesting! I had thought perhaps this might be something from the Early Fathers, but I couldn’t find it anywhere, so I made another guess.

I agree with awatkins69. To truly know oneself is to know one’s sinfulness and need for God. If one says one comes to know oneself, and come to another conclusion, one does not really know oneself. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth [Jesus!] is not in us.” It’s Scriptural. Let’s not derail ourselves with sola scriptura, if we can help it.

This does not contradict Baptist teaching, in my experience–isn’t this the basis of the “Sinner’s Prayer”? I remember being taught ‘ABC’, and A, the first step to salvation, was “accept that you are a sinner”. That, ultimately, requires one to know oneself, doesn’t it?

 

[gerhardc]

There are subtle differences in how we see things. The idea of first ‘knowing oneself’ suggest a far greater quest for deep revelation of one’s inner makings - thus, the emphasis being 'what are you made of?, or, what makes you tick?, or, what are your innermost desires? If you know these things you know yourself.

In the context of repentance the question revolves around ‘how have you transgressed?’, or ‘how far are you from the character of God?’. To answer the latter question you need to know what God is like. And to answer that question you need to know what God says about Himself and how He deals with people and things in His Word.

There needs to be no investigation of one’s sinfulness. God’s Words says that, ‘all have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory.’ Thus, the matter of our sinfulness is settled. It warrants no further investigation. It can be accepted as is written in the Word. Next is the question around where we have sinned. That is different for every person and is known by knowing what they should have done. Sin or transgression means to transgress a code or law. To know where you have transgressed you need to know the code or law. That too is found in the Word of God. Upon studying the Word you come to realise the extent to which you are missing God’s purpose for you. It does not come from studying yourself, it comes from studying God’s Word.

There’s a subtle yet clear difference in how we see this matter. All agree that introspection in terms of one’s sins and sinfulness is necessary to repent and receive forgiveness of sins. On the one hand some feel that you follow-up your repentance with further introspection, perhaps to come to a greater sense of guilt followed by further repentance and humility. On the other hand others feel that once repented you are ‘free’ to learn about God so that your sinfulness will appear in the sharp contrast between yourself and Christ.

You need not study yourself to know yourself. Christ said that you know a person (including yourself) by the fruit they bear. Therefore, spiritual growth rather calls for dedicated study of who God is and then acting according to His instruction than what it calls for dedicated introspection in order to know yourself better.

Perhaps my understanding of this conversation can be summed up this way?: As a Baptist I want to repent of all my sins and then learn who God is and how I should conduct my life through study of His Word. As a Catholic you want to repent for all your sins and study yourself even further to come to come to a greater realisation of how sinful you really are. That way you can come to greater repentance.

Can it be said that as a Baptist I seek understanding of the Word before understanding of self, whereas for you it is the other way around?

 

[Moscati]

I suppose we do see it somewhat differently.

I would certainly agree that we need the Word (and the Church, and the saints, and our pastors) to show us what sin is.

For a Catholic, repentance is a lifelong journey. It’s not something that happens once, and then we’re “free” to simply learn about God. They go hand in hand, We hear the Word in the Mass. We confess our sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Both, simultaneously, throughout our lives. Sins that are confessed are gone–I suppose it might occasionally be useful to reexamine them, but in general, our introspection should be focused on new sins (which no doubt we will commit), and how to grow in grace so that they become less frequent.

I wonder–how does one know the fruit one bears without examining oneself? I’m not sure you’ve eliminated the need for self-knowledge.

What stands out, for me, in your summation is the word “then”. You repent, and then learn more about God. For a Catholic, there is no “then”. You repent all your life, and learn more about God all your life as well. Our journey isn’t broken up into two separate parts. I don’t think it’s possible to come to know God for what He is, without cultivating a life of repentance. Your sin will blind you.

In rereading Clement’s quote, I wonder if perhaps we might have missed his point with all this. I think he’s referring to image of God being present in each human being, including ourselves, and how we can come to know God that way. (Just FYI)

 

[josephdaniel29]

Biblical accounts suggests that instant salvation was not only the norm during Jesus’ ministry it remained that way after His ascention. Suggestions to the contrary is not supported by Scripture.

So called instant conversion isn’t the end of it for certain. God is infinite so there will always be more to learn and deeper communion with Him, even to eternity.

I fear you are misunderstanding what they mean by knowing yourself before you can know God. Your sinfulness, helplessness and total dependency on God are one thing and your sense of those things certainly grow as you grow in communion with God. What I believe they are talking about is your own ego and self-will which governs practically every aspect of our lives. You can’t even start to have a relationship with God until you stop trying to play god in your own life.

Our fallen minds and resultant egos are incredibly subtle and coercive in the ways they try to control us and the world around us. They keep us focused on judging others, worrying about the future and feeling guilty about the past. Our minds, out of self-centered fear, seek control as a self defense mechanism. And since we have no real control over the present it keeps us focused on the future and past, the only places it has control.

The problem is the future and past, at least for us creatures, doesn’t really exist. The only place we can experience God is in the here and now. Until we let go of that self-centered fear, and I mean really let go, we can never live in the present and thus never truly experience God. That is what I think is meant by knowing yourself before you can know God.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[gerhardc]

Yes, there seem to be some differences. For me too, to repent of my sins is a life long journey. Very often I need to repent again and again of the same thing because I simply cannot get it right. It is then that I feel like Paul does in Romans 7. It is normal when we walk in the flesh, not in the spirit. And so the key is to walk in the Spirit - refer Romans 8:1-2.

But I do not dwell on my sin. I do not play it over and over in my mind and I do not mediate on it. What I do is what Scripture says I should do: I know my sin by looking in the mirror of the Word and acting according to what it says I should do:

James 1:21-25:
21 So get rid of all the filth and evil in your lives, and humbly accept the word God has planted in your hearts, for it has the power to save your souls.
22 But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves.
23 For if you listen to the word and don’t obey, it is like glancing at your face in a mirror.
24 You see yourself, walk away, and forget what you look like.
25 But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don’t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it.

Now, doesn’t that settle it? Doesn’t the Bible tell us exactly how to see ourselves perfectly? / how to know ourselves perfectly?; by looking at ourselves in the mirror of the Word.

If we seek to know ourselves in our own way we are bound to not see ourselves the way God sees us. Because God sees us through His Word. And the way He sees us is the way we are truly.

Either we believe the Bible is correct in the way it says we will know ourselves, or we do not believe it is correct and instead follow another way. I will suggest that the correct way to know yourself is through the mirror of God’s Word.

 

[gerhardc]

Instant conversion is a fact. Ask the Apostle Paul what it is like to come to a sudden realisation that you are going the wrong way, then repenting, then receiving forgiveness and be a true believer and follower of Jesus Christ henceforth. And so Scripture also talks of hundreds of people that come to that instant conversion as they hear the Word spoken to them. It cannot be disputed, its in the Bible.

As with Paul it happens purely by God’s grace. We should not deny His ability to bring anyone, even a person like Paul, to instant conversion. He does it every day.

Instant spiritual growth is another matter altogether. Spiritual growth comes with time, prayer, study and circumstance.

Time: as we witness in the lives of Paul, Peter, Jude and every contributor to the NT.
Prayer: as we seek God’s will earnestly (“the effective fervent prayer of a rightious man avails much”)
Study: “Study to show yourselves approved of God, a workman rightly dividing the Word of truth”
Circumstance: “Count it all joy when you fall into various trials and tribulations for the testing of your faith produces patience and let patience have its perfect work in you that you may be perfect and complete lacking nothing”

(all paraphrased)

Thus *conversion *and *growth *is not the same thing. To infer that instant conversion is somehow invalid is to deny Scripture itself. For Paul was instantly converted from his wrongful thinking and his wrongful ways.

Also, to think that *conversion *and *growth *is the same thing is to suggest that one is only converted when one arrives at a place of spiritual maturity. If that was true then the sinner on the cross would not have been saved.

We can get saved in an instant - although some don’t. But we grow over time, prayer, study and circumstance. Study teaches us about ourselves as we meditate on the Word. Refer Joshua 1.

From the above and looking at the world around us it appears as if most people are as Paul suggests “but a babe” for they cannot handle “solid food”. Refer 1 Cor 3:2. They do not know the Word, yet they believe they know what God’s will is. Does that come through deep introspection? I think not. My belief is that the Bible is right - Both God’s will as well as your own sinfulness is known by studying the Word so as to “rightly divide the word of truth” by meditating on it day and night (refer Joshua 1).

2 Timothy 2:15 (Whole Chapter)
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Moscati]

Instant conversion is a fact. Ask the Apostle Paul what it is like to come to a sudden realisation that you are going the wrong way, then repenting, then receiving forgiveness and be a true believer and follower of Jesus Christ henceforth. And so Scripture also talks of hundreds of people that come to that instant conversion as they hear the Word spoken to them. It cannot be disputed, its in the Bible.

As with Paul it happens purely by God’s grace. We should not deny His ability to bring anyone, even a person like Paul, to instant conversion. He does it every day.

Instant spiritual growth is another matter altogether. Spiritual growth comes with time, prayer, study and circumstance.

Time: as we witness in the lives of Paul, Peter, Jude and every contributor to the NT.
Prayer: as we seek God’s will earnestly (“the effective fervent prayer of a rightious man avails much”)
Study: “Study to show yourselves approved of God, a workman rightly dividing the Word of truth”
Circumstance: “Count it all joy when you fall into various trials and tribulations for the testing of your faith produces patience and let patience have its perfect work in you that you may be perfect and complete lacking nothing”

(all paraphrased)

Thus *conversion *and *growth *is not the same thing. To infer that instant conversion is somehow invalid is to deny Scripture itself. For Paul was instantly converted from his wrongful thinking and his wrongful ways.

Also, to think that *conversion *and *growth *is the same thing is to suggest that one is only converted when one arrives at a place of spiritual maturity. If that was true then the sinner on the cross would not have been saved.

We can get saved in an instant - although some don’t. But we grow over time, prayer, study and circumstance. Study teaches us about ourselves as we meditate on the Word. Refer Joshua 1.

From the above and looking at the world around us it appears as if most people are as Paul suggests “but a babe” for they cannot handle “solid food”. Refer 1 Cor 3:2. They do not know the Word, yet they believe they know what God’s will is. Does that come through deep introspection? I think not. My belief is that the Bible is right - Both God’s will as well as your own sinfulness is known by studying the Word so as to “rightly divide the word of truth” by meditating on it day and night (refer Joshua 1).

2 Timothy 2:15 (Whole Chapter)
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Oh dear, gerhard.

What we’re circling around is the difference between Catholic and Baptist soteriology. It’s a deep difference, and I’m not sure I’m the best one to try to explain it. I’m a brand new Catholic (or will be, on Holy Saturday), still more on the milk than the meat side of theology. I will say the Catholic Church is in the Reformers’ debt in this regard, since our understanding of soteriology wasn’t fully clarified until we had to respond to Luther. So thank you!

When we say conversion, we mean metanoia, yes? Turning away from sin, toward God. But, as you say, we still struggle with sin. We turn back, sometimes. Continuing conversion is what you’re calling spiritual growth here. We trip ourselves up over terms.

I would agree that God can call someone and their life will be radically changed in an instant. St. Paul, St. Francis, the Apostles . . . we don’t disagree that this is possible, and indeed, happens often. St. Dismas the Good Thief was saved.

What you’re calling spiritual growth, we think of as “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”.

I wish I had more time, and the knowledge to explain the Catholic Faith better. You’re certainly welcome to read the relevant parts of the Catechism, which can do a better job than I can.