How to make my atheist boyfriend more comfortable with NFP (for when we're married obviously)

[stina2bina]

Hi there

I’ve been dating my current boyfriend for only about 5 months, but because we are both at a big “career stage” of our lives, sacrifices are being made and we’ve been talking about the specifics of if/when/how we’d be married to solidify our commitment to each other. It probably won’t happen for at least another year or two, but we’ve discussed as many possible “issues” as possible.

He’s an atheist, which I know receives a lot of criticism on this forum, but hear me out: I met him at a Catholic retreat (he’s got a ton of friends who are Catholic and is surprisingly tolerant) and he has been SO supportive of my faith. He’s gone to Mass with me a couple times, and we certainly discuss faith but it’s very respectful because we both approach faith with a more “intellectual” approach. I’ve been very VERY clear our entire relationship, my faith is my #1 priority and if I ever feel for a second that he is pulling me away from it, we’d have to re-think being together.

He’s been completely ok with the no-sex-before-marriage thing and never pressures me in the slightest. In fact I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t, even if I had a moment of weakness and gave him the go-ahead. When it comes to marriage I told him I want to get married in the Church (he’s baptized Catholic), our children MUST be raised Catholic, and we need to use NFP. When I mentioned NFP, he said he’d be fine with it as long as I can show him studies about it’s effectiveness, I did, he read them and agreed.

Last night we were talking and he admitted that NFP is starting to scare him because he would really like to avoid children for at least a couple of years after we get married (we’re both obsessed with travelling the world). I promised him I’d send him more research and he said it’s that, as well as the fact that without a physical barrier (i.e. condoms) he would feel really really nervous not knowing if it “failed” (apparently he never let his previous gf use just the pill either).

I could see how sincerely saddened and scared he was - this wasn’t him attacking my beliefs by any means, and it broke my heart. I know I’m following my beliefs with all the “rules” I’ve set up and I don’t regret it, but I can’t help but feel awful for all the concessions he is making for me. He has been SO open and ok with everything and I know he wants to be ok with NFP but just isn’t right now.

Has anyone dealt with an atheist husband + NFP? Other than showing him more studies and getting him to chart with me when the time comes, how can I help him feel better about it?

 

[steve_b]

Hi there

I’ve been dating my current boyfriend for only about 5 months, but because we are both at a big “career stage” of our lives, sacrifices are being made and we’ve been talking about the specifics of if/when/how we’d be married to solidify our commitment to each other. It probably won’t happen for at least another year or two, but we’ve discussed as many possible “issues” as possible.

He’s an atheist, which I know receives a lot of criticism on this forum, but hear me out: I met him at a Catholic retreat (he’s got a ton of friends who are Catholic and is surprisingly tolerant) and he has been SO supportive of my faith. He’s gone to Mass with me a couple times, and we certainly discuss faith but it’s very respectful because we both approach faith with a more “intellectual” approach. I’ve been very VERY clear our entire relationship, my faith is my #1 priority and if I ever feel for a second that he is pulling me away from it, we’d have to re-think being together.

He’s been completely ok with the no-sex-before-marriage thing and never pressures me in the slightest. In fact I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t, even if I had a moment of weakness and gave him the go-ahead. When it comes to marriage I told him I want to get married in the Church (he’s baptized Catholic), our children MUST be raised Catholic, and we need to use NFP. When I mentioned NFP, he said he’d be fine with it as long as I can show him studies about it’s effectiveness, I did, he read them and agreed.

Last night we were talking and he admitted that NFP is starting to scare him because he would really like to avoid children for at least a couple of years after we get married (we’re both obsessed with travelling the world). I promised him I’d send him more research and he said it’s that, as well as the fact that without a physical barrier (i.e. condoms) he would feel really really nervous not knowing if it “failed” (apparently he never let his previous gf use just the pill either).

I could see how sincerely saddened and scared he was - this wasn’t him attacking my beliefs by any means, and it broke my heart. I know I’m following my beliefs with all the “rules” I’ve set up and I don’t regret it, but I can’t help but feel awful for all the concessions he is making for me. He has been SO open and ok with everything and I know he wants to be ok with NFP but just isn’t right now.

Has anyone dealt with an atheist husband + NFP? Other than showing him more studies and getting him to chart with me when the time comes, how can I help him feel better about it?

Marrying someone with the intent of changing them is a blueprint for disaster.

 

[Gorgias]

I’ve been very VERY clear our entire relationship, my faith is my #1 priority and if I ever feel for a second that he is pulling me away from it, we’d have to re-think being together.

I can’t help but feel awful for all the concessions he is making for me.

Concessions? No, he’s respecting what you told him was your “#1 priority”. This, it seems, is the first time that he’s pushing back on some aspect of your “#1 priority”; it’s interesting that, when all is going well and there’s no conflict, then it’s all wine and roses – but, when there’s a difference of opinion, you suddenly feel like he’s making ‘concessions’ for you.

Last night we were talking and he admitted that NFP is starting to scare him … without a physical barrier (i.e. condoms) he would feel really really nervous not knowing if it “failed”

A couple of thoughts: first off, even if he used condoms, he still wouldn’t know if it succeeded – in other words, no matter what the circumstances, he’d “feel really really nervous”, right? What he’s really saying, it seems, is that he’s good with one application of technology (ABC) but not another (NFP).

Second, I think I would make the observation that he isn’t ‘scared’, per se: instead, this is the normal reaction of someone who’s being asked to trust, but hasn’t had the experience in doing so. NFP is certainly well-thought-out scientifically, and is solid clinically, but in its basic philosophy, it’s all about putting trust in God. For a Catholic (like you), that’s not earth-shattering; for a non-practicing Catholic (like your BF), that may be terrifying.

I could see how sincerely saddened and scared he was - this wasn’t him attacking my beliefs by any means, and it broke my heart.

Hmm. So, then, you’ll need (it seems) to re-think your understanding of what “attacking my beliefs” means. What you’re really talking about is conflicts, both in theory and in practice, in one’s faith and morals. Does ‘attacking’ only mean making a mean-spirited frontal assault on one’s beliefs? Or does it mean subtly attempting to show a person the ‘error’ of their ways? (Not saying that he’s doing this, of course!) Then again, could it also mean promising to respect a person’s beliefs, but then waffling when it comes time to put your money where your mouth is?

Other than showing him more studies and getting him to chart with me when the time comes, how can I help him feel better about it?

Perhaps you could start charting now. That would demonstrate to the both of you that the process ‘works’ (that is, that it can identify fertile and non-fertile days).

 

[Bookcat]

I would note regarding the question of marrying an Atheist – such raises already some rather very difficult problems on its own…especially in terms of the raising the Children.

It can be noted that those of mixed religions can be very difficult --even more so if the person is an atheist. People can think --oh we are in love and it will be no problem…but then the Children come…and the world changes.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I really don’t want to be the spoil sport here, but I must quote from the constant teaching of the Catholic Church. Pope Leo XIII said it quite bluntly: Care also must be taken that Catholics do not easily enter into marriage with those who are not Catholics; for, when minds do not agree as to the observances of religion, it is scarcely possible to hope for agreement in other things. Other reasons also proving that persons should turn with dread from such marriages are chiefly these: that they give occasion to forbidden association and communion in religious matters; endanger the faith of the Catholic partner; are a hindrance to the proper education of the children; and often lead to a mixing up of truth and falsehood, and to the belief that all religions are equally good.
The Church has always taught this because it knows from tragic centuries of experience that when a marriage takes place between people of two different faiths, they are setting themselves up for an uphill battle. Marriage is already hard enough when both parties are faithful Catholics, so why make it even harder?

As Steve said, and as any priest or spiritual director will say, you should never enter into marriage thinking you will or can change the other. That’s a blueprint for disaster.

When it comes to morals, this is where things become the hardest, because morals flow from one’s religious views. In other words, if one is a Protestant or Atheist and they see nothing wrong with contraception or divorce, then from their point of view there is no good reason to avoid them. And when it comes to teaching your children, the children will be receiving mixed messages, and ultimately taking the easier path.
Getting married to an atheist also means he is the head of the household, meaning you must submit to his leadership and decisions, which will assuredly make it inconvenient for you to practice your faith.

LASTLY, nobody here is trying to be mean or cause you pain. We say these things out of Christian love, which to the secular world sounds cruel and judgmental. But anyone would have to admit it is better for friends to warn if they sense danger rather than just playing it cool so as to not rock the boat.

 

[Gorgias]

I really don’t want to be the spoil sport here, but I must quote from the constant teaching of the Catholic Church. Pope Leo XIII said it quite bluntly: Care also must be taken that Catholics do not easily enter into marriage with those who are not Catholics

Uhh… Dude? The thing is… the OP’s boyfriend is a Catholic:

stina2bina:

When it comes to marriage I told him I want to get married in the Church (he’s baptized Catholic)

He may not be practicing, but the Church sees him as Catholic, based on his Catholic baptism. (This means, of course, that for any marriage to be valid, it would necessarily have to be a Church wedding – there are no dispensations for form when two Catholics are involved…!)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Uhh… Dude? The thing is… the OP’s boyfriend is a Catholic:

That’s irrelevant to the quote I gave, since the point is there is a clash of religions which both parties actually practice. While he is always Catholic in virtue of his baptism, his choice of beliefs are not, and that’s what matters.

The dangers that the Popes listed pertain to how the parents are living, particularly in how they promise to live based on their lifestyle going into marriage. Someone who is living the Christian life and wanting to pass this on to their children will face a whole host of roadblocks and dangers coming from a spouse with no intention of living the Christian life.
when minds do not agree as to the observances of religion, it is scarcely possible to hope for agreement in other things

 

[frizzgrig]

Last night we were talking and he admitted that NFP is starting to scare him because he would really like to avoid children for at least a couple of years after we get married (we’re both obsessed with travelling the world). I promised him I’d send him more research and he said it’s that, as well as the fact that without a physical barrier (i.e. condoms) he would feel really really nervous not knowing if it “failed” (apparently he never let his previous gf use just the pill either).

You need to point out to him barrier methods can “fail” without the user’s knowledge at the time. Can he see a microscopic pin hole with his eye?

One of the requirements for a valid marriage is for the couple to be open to children. Not to be open to children “in a couple of years” or some time “in the future.”

You need to reconcile the issue of your personal desire to travel the world vs. accepting what God’s will for you is. It may be God’s will that you travel the world for years, it may be God’s will you never leave your home. Children are not an obstacle to God’s will, and should you happen to have a child or two before traveling the world perhaps it is God’s will that your journeys be enhanced by sharing them with your children. It really is a very special gift to get a glimpse of the world through a child’s eyes.

Peace,

Pat

 

[Sarcelle]

Marrying someone with the intent of changing them is a blueprint for disaster.

I agree. My mother was a devout Catholic until she married my father who is an atheist. Now they are both atheists.

If there’s a chance you can convert him, there’s also a chance he can convert you.

 

[MaryT777]

Stina2bina:

My question is how will you raise your children-. Catholic or atheist? How would that ever work out? As noted NFP is God’s will for our marriage and willingness to be open to children.
How could he accept that when he does not believe in God.
Do you want to make him comfortable around your children some day should God bless you with them in the sense he shares there is NO GOD with young children . Don’t you want to be raise your children in a Catholic home where both parents profess the same Catholic Faith?
What does your Priest think about all of this?.
That an atheist comes to Mass ungrudgingly is not the same as going to Mass as a family.
Surely he would not receive the Eucharist not believing?
Prayers for discernment on the way. Just random questions in brain for thought!
Mary.

Mary.

 

[Gorgias]

That’s irrelevant to the quote I gave

I would disagree.
Catholic Dude:

when minds do not agree as to the observances of religion, it is scarcely possible to hope for agreement in other things

Here’s the problem: when you rely only on a translation, you run the risk of over-emphasizing a word that may not have been intended in the way that the original was written. Looking at the word ‘observances’ in the English translation, you might think that Leo was talking solely about the practice of religion here. He wasn’t. He was talking about the religious tradition itself:

Illud etiam cavendum est, ne scilicet coniugia facile appetantur cum alienis a catholico nomine: animos enim de disciplina religionis dissidentes vix sperari potest futuros esse cetera concordes.

(Emphases mine.)

See? The notion of ‘observance’ of one’s faith doesn’t appear in the original text. Moreover, Leo’s talking about people who are “alienis a catholico nomine”; although the OP’s BF doesn’t practice the Catholic faith, he’s not “alienis a catholico nomine”.

In fact, looking at Leo’s concerns about “forbidden association and communion”, we should recognize that the issue that Leo was exhorting against was mixed marriage (marriage between a Catholic and a non-Catholic Christian), perhaps even disparity of cult (marriage between a Catholic and an unbaptized person). That certainly isn’t the case here.

 

[Catholic1954]

If he is going to Catholic retreats, attending Mass and is ok with raising his children Catholic, he doesn’t sound like much of an atheist to me! The next step might be for him to talk to someone who is commited to NFP and can answer his questions and address his concerns on a more personal level. Maybe you can get in touch with an NFP instructor and arrange for an interview? I’m sure this is a common issue and can be dealt with by someone expirenced in it. He sounds like a good guy and I hope you can work it all out BEFORE the wedding.

 

[sw85]

Marrying someone with the intent of changing them is a blueprint for disaster.

Worse, intending to marry a non-Catholic is forbidden by canon law.

 

[Joe_5859]

As others have pointed out, marrying someone who does not share your faith makes things difficult. It’s easy to get along for 5 months, but after 5 years (or 50 years), it’s a much different story. It’s something you’ll need to think a lot about in your discernment.

With regards to your question, I find it interesting that even those of us who pride ourselves on being “intellectual” are still prone to following our feelings. You’ve shown him the studies, but because he cannot see a physical barrier, it doesn’t feel like it would work as well. The evidence simply does not support that feeling.

 

[Joe_5859]

Worse, intending to marry a non-Catholic is forbidden by canon law.

What canon are you talking about?

She said her boyfriend was baptized Catholic anyway.

 

[Gorgias]

Worse, intending to marry a non-Catholic is forbidden by canon law.

Umm… no, it isn’t!

 

[PennyinCanada]

Are you charting your monthly cycle right now? Your confidence in your ability to chart and understand your cycle would give confidence.

It might be that after one child is born, he may very well not want a 2nd, and may wish to be sterilized. Atheist boyfriends have been known to promise many things when dating, but once the marriage has taken place, he will have full say in what he feels, and well, you’re married then. He may have less tolerance on how much he’s will to ‘give in’ to religion’s never ending demands. Of course you’ll have sympathy for how much he has to ‘tolerate’ and will give up things, to be ‘fair’. It’s hard enough to be Catholic in this world, and you are about to make it even harder for yourself by choosing to pick a life partner that doesn’t walk daily with our amazing God.

Good Catholic husbands and fathers are worth their weight in gold in this life, and in the next. You don’t realize what you’re giving up.

 

[sw85]

What canon are you talking about?

Canon 1124 and onward for non-Catholics, canon 1086 and onward for the unbaptized. This is why episcopal dispensations are required for Catholics to marry people that aren’t Catholics, and they are not granted lightly.

She said her boyfriend was baptized Catholic anyway.

I’m not sure how that changes things. Canon 1124 et al. only expressly forbids marriage to those who are in ecclesial communities not in communion with Rome, but doesn’t seem to say anything about individuals not a part of any such community.

In any event I imagine the prohibition still applies, since it exists for the purpose of protecting a Catholic’s children from being raised outside of the faith.

 

[Gorgias]

Canon 1124 and onward for non-Catholics, canon 1086 and onward for the unbaptized.

OK, but you said that it was forbidden. It’s not: it’s permitted with proper dispensation.

This is why episcopal dispensations are required for Catholics to marry people that aren’t Catholics, and they are not granted lightly.

But, the OP’s BF is a Catholic! He’s been baptized, and so he’s a Catholic - period.

I’m not sure how that changes things. Canon 1124 et al. only expressly forbids marriage to those who are in ecclesial communities not in communion with Rome, but doesn’t seem to say anything about individuals not a part of any such community.

Are you making recourse to the “defection by a formal act” clause? It’s no longer in effect. That being the case, c. 1124 doesn’t apply here. Since c. 1124 is dealing with mixed marriage (i.e., between a Catholic and a non-Catholic Christian), it’s irrelevant in this case.

(Disparity of cult (c. 1086) doesn’t apply, either, since the BF is baptized.)

 

[wondrousgnat]

Marrying someone with the intent of changing them is a blueprint for disaster.

I agree completely. Find someone else or wait until a sincere, proven conversion is made. I understand that being single for a long time is scary. I did not marry til I was 61. But it is better to be single than to live a life of unhappiness and regret.