How to move from deism to theism?

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ethereality

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Jim Blackburn’s introduction of deism describes my current situation, brought about by my suffering, ungranted petitions, and reception of the Eucharist and time spent before the Tabernacle without any recognizable interaction with God.

It’s brought me from being “hardcore Christian” to “agnostic deist”.

hardcore Christian:

  1. *]I know the Catholic Church is correct.
    *]We should criminalize feticide, pornography, and contraception (except in the case of rape prior to conception) as the Church says!
    *]The legal definition and practice of marriage should match the Church’s dogma.
    *]We should freely mention God at academic conferences. (e.g. I’ve seen an astronomer write, “Nature has given us a way to know the interior of stars.” We should instead say, “God has given us …”)
    *]Include Christian doctrine in tax-funded schools – after all, one goal of K-12 education is to teach facts and an appreciation of reality
    *]Pray as a means to cause change in political situations, e.g. pray a Rosary every day to obtain world peace.
    *]We should live like the early Christians, sharing everything in common and regarding ourselves as brothers and sisters in the Lord.

    agnostic deist

    1. *]I suppose we shouldn’t oppose the Catholic Church, just in case she’s correct, but I can’t promote her doctrine at the expense of others’ liberty because I don’t know that it’s true. So, for example, I can’t protest “Planned Barrenhood” killing fetuses at 13 weeks. It may be what’s best for women trying to live well for their fleeting days on Earth before they cease to exist at death.
      *]I wish I could quit going to church on Sundays, given how terrible the liturgy is and how I get nothing from the homilies, but the Church might be correct and I don’t want to go to hell if so.
      *]I don’t see the use of prayer, because it doesn’t seem to affect anything, nor does God respond.

      What should I do? To be frank, I’ve tried everything except quitting entirely and living as an atheist. I also don’t want to hear “God did the same thing to St. Teresa of Calcutta for 40 years!” That only comes across as more evidence that the Church is incorrect. How is it good to have a relationship with someone by shunning them as far as they can tell?

      One thing that brought this issue to the foreground for me was the question, “How can I persuade the Japanese to become Christian?” I realized I could not point to any benefit in my life, nor any recent evidence of God’s activity, nor any philosophical proof that didn’t have an equally plausible counterargument, nor any historical evidence that was clearly factual. I realized my entire Christian faith was based merely on believing what others have said – my entire faith was “just take my word for it.” So I’ve been stuck as an agnostic Christian ever since – continuing to practice the faith, crying out to God, and being met with silence.
 
Hi!

I have a question, because honestly I have no real answers for you :/. Do you have Christian friends? Do you discuss Christian things with them?
 
I am breaking my silence because I empathize with you OP. Here are some thoughts:

“hardcore Christian”
  1. No one actually knows this, some people believe it, to varying degrees.
  2. It’s perfectly fine to think we should “criminalize” those things. Instead of appealing to a religious authority, however, why not consider reason? Don’t we have good reasons to suppose abortion, contraception, and pornography are harmful other than appeal to religion? I think so! Abortion is the murder of innocent human beings early in their development. It’s wrong just like any other kind of murder is wrong: because to assume murder is right is absurd. It’s unintelligible to say “murder is right” because we would then be morally obligated to murder each other, or ourselves, or both, and then there would be no human beings left. Murder must be wrong, and abortion is a form of murder. Is it possibly a justifiable form a murder (like self-defense)? Maybe, but I am not persuaded by the arguments in favor of this position. Can you make reasonable arguments in favor of outlawing pornography (exploits/abuses people) or contraception (leads to dangerous population loss)? If so, then you have reasons to think they’re wrong. No appeal to religious authority is necessary to have a morality grounded in reason and observation.
  3. Can you think of a reason why this should be so? I’d argue that a definition of marriage based upon biological utility is the most reasonable, and that to expand the definition to “mutual love” or something opens the door to the redefinition of marriage into an incoherent concept. I believe Robert George made this argument in his paper about marriage. Again, no appeal to religious authority is necessary.
  4. You can say that if you want. People may not take you seriously, since you cannot provide good evidence for statements predicated upon your notion of “God.” Can you provide reasons though? Do you have good reasons to believe statements predicated upon your understanding of “God?” If so, go for it!
  5. No one knows that Christian (or any religious) doctrine is true, so it should not be taught as a fact. Nevertheless, I think it is perfectly fine for private schools to teach what they like because I believe in freedom of thought. I think freedom of thought is right and censorship is wrong because it is unintelligible to hold that censorship is always and universally right. That said, I don’t think it is right to use my tax money to teach kids about religious doctrines (Islam, Scientology, Mormonism, Shamanism, Voodoo, etc). Would you, as a Catholic, think it is right for your tax dollars to be used to teach kids that Voodoo is the truth about reality? Of course not. Universalize that, and you’ll see that we can’t teach any unfounded or faith-based ideas as facts.
  6. Billions of people have been praying to thousands of gods for this for thousands of years: it hasn’t worked yet…😛
  7. That just doesn’t work my friend. It’s been tried, and it always fails, sometimes miserably and violently so. What do you think would be the best way for humanity to live? What would be the most reasonable way for us to get along? Maybe try thinking about that.
“agnostic deist”
  1. Abortion may be desirable for the mother, but how can we assume it is desirable for the developing baby? Doesn’t the baby’s right to life trump the mother’s right to liberty? Why or why not? Maybe re-frame the question away from religious dogma and toward reason.
  2. No one knows if the Catholic Church in its current form is “correct” about the entire universe. Similarly, no one knows if the various Islams, Hinduisms, Protestantisms, Animisms, and other beliefs are “correct.” Do you practice all the world’s religions merely because they all claim negative consequences if you neglect them? Of course not! Do you quiver at the thought of the endless Islamic hell awaiting you regardless of your choice between Catholicism and Agnosticism? Probably not right? Once you gain some distance, you’ll see that the dilemma imposed upon you depends entirely on your perspective, and not strict probability or likelihood.
  3. Yep. :clapping: And, thank God! I’m glad God does not answer prayers. Who am I to give him advice? LOL. Who cares what I think? Why would I think the eternal, uncreated, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Creator of the universe would do what I want just by asking?
I’ve been stuck in your position in the past. It’s no fun. Here’s what I would do: move on.

It’s scary, but you can do it! Use your powers of reason, your common sense, and your desire for truth to propel you forward. Learn, discover, meditate, think, ponder, question, never give up. Ask yourself “what is life really like, and how do I know or how can I find out?” The ocean of life is vast, much richer, and much deeper than the shallow dirty pool we’ve both been swimming in. Best wishes, from one seeker to another. 🙂
 
ethereality said:
Jim Blackburn’s introduction of deism describes my current situation, brought about by my suffering, ungranted petitions, and reception of the Eucharist and time spent before the Tabernacle without any recognizable interaction with God.

It’s brought me from being “hardcore Christian” to “agnostic deist”.

hardcore Christian:

  1. *]I know the Catholic Church is correct.
    *]We should criminalize feticide, pornography, and contraception (except in the case of rape prior to conception) as the Church says!
    *]The legal definition and practice of marriage should match the Church’s dogma.
    *]We should freely mention God at academic conferences. (e.g. I’ve seen an astronomer write, “Nature has given us a way to know the interior of stars.” We should instead say, “God has given us …”)
    *]Include Christian doctrine in tax-funded schools – after all, one goal of K-12 education is to teach facts and an appreciation of reality
    *]Pray as a means to cause change in political situations, e.g. pray a Rosary every day to obtain world peace.
    *]We should live like the early Christians, sharing everything in common and regarding ourselves as brothers and sisters in the Lord.

    agnostic deist

    1. *]I suppose we shouldn’t oppose the Catholic Church, just in case she’s correct, but I can’t promote her doctrine at the expense of others’ liberty because I don’t know that it’s true. So, for example, I can’t protest “Planned Barrenhood” killing fetuses at 13 weeks. It may be what’s best for women trying to live well for their fleeting days on Earth before they cease to exist at death.
      *]I wish I could quit going to church on Sundays, given how terrible the liturgy is and how I get nothing from the homilies, but the Church might be correct and I don’t want to go to hell if so.
      *]I don’t see the use of prayer, because it doesn’t seem to affect anything, nor does God respond.

      What should I do? To be frank, I’ve tried everything except quitting entirely and living as an atheist. I also don’t want to hear “God did the same thing to St. Teresa of Calcutta for 40 years!” That only comes across as more evidence that the Church is incorrect. How is it good to have a relationship with someone by shunning them as far as they can tell?

      One thing that brought this issue to the foreground for me was the question, “How can I persuade the Japanese to become Christian?” I realized I could not point to any benefit in my life, nor any recent evidence of God’s activity, nor any philosophical proof that didn’t have an equally plausible counterargument, nor any historical evidence that was clearly factual. I realized my entire Christian faith was based merely on believing what others have said – my entire faith was “just take my word for it.” So I’ve been stuck as an agnostic Christian ever since – continuing to practice the faith, crying out to God, and being met with silence.
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    1. It always comes down to this: human expectations of how God should respond, rather than accepting how the perfectly merciful and just and truthful God cares for his creatures (providence). Jesus Christ revealed the mystery of the plan of salvation for mankind, but some did not accept it because they expected a political victory to result.
 
ethereality said:
Jim Blackburn’s introduction of deism describes my current situation, brought about by my suffering, ungranted petitions, and reception of the Eucharist and time spent before the Tabernacle without any recognizable interaction with God.

It’s brought me from being “hardcore Christian” to “agnostic deist”.

hardcore Christian:

  1. *]I know the Catholic Church is correct.
    *]We should criminalize feticide, pornography, and contraception (except in the case of rape prior to conception) as the Church says!
    *]The legal definition and practice of marriage should match the Church’s dogma.
    *]We should freely mention God at academic conferences. (e.g. I’ve seen an astronomer write, “Nature has given us a way to know the interior of stars.” We should instead say, “God has given us …”)
    *]Include Christian doctrine in tax-funded schools – after all, one goal of K-12 education is to teach facts and an appreciation of reality
    *]Pray as a means to cause change in political situations, e.g. pray a Rosary every day to obtain world peace.
    *]We should live like the early Christians, sharing everything in common and regarding ourselves as brothers and sisters in the Lord.

    agnostic deist

    1. *]I suppose we shouldn’t oppose the Catholic Church, just in case she’s correct, but I can’t promote her doctrine at the expense of others’ liberty because I don’t know that it’s true. So, for example, I can’t protest “Planned Barrenhood” killing fetuses at 13 weeks. It may be what’s best for women trying to live well for their fleeting days on Earth before they cease to exist at death.
      *]I wish I could quit going to church on Sundays, given how terrible the liturgy is and how I get nothing from the homilies, but the Church might be correct and I don’t want to go to hell if so.
      *]I don’t see the use of prayer, because it doesn’t seem to affect anything, nor does God respond.

      What should I do? To be frank, I’ve tried everything except quitting entirely and living as an atheist. I also don’t want to hear “God did the same thing to St. Teresa of Calcutta for 40 years!” That only comes across as more evidence that the Church is incorrect. How is it good to have a relationship with someone by shunning them as far as they can tell?

      One thing that brought this issue to the foreground for me was the question, “How can I persuade the Japanese to become Christian?” I realized I could not point to any benefit in my life, nor any recent evidence of God’s activity, nor any philosophical proof that didn’t have an equally plausible counterargument, nor any historical evidence that was clearly factual. I realized my entire Christian faith was based merely on believing what others have said – my entire faith was “just take my word for it.” So I’ve been stuck as an agnostic Christian ever since – continuing to practice the faith, crying out to God, and being met with silence.
Click to expand...

    1. Hi ethereality,

      I’m going to offer my Friday fasting and prayers for you starting now (Thursday 7PM Eastern Time 8AM in Japan). I typically fast from meal to meal. My intention will be that God make you aware of his presence. Unfortunately my fasting doesn’t really become difficult until 2 to 5 PM my time which will be 3 to 6 AM your time. So I don’t know if that will have an impact on its effectiveness. 🙂

      Anyway, let me know how your day goes. Also, let me know if there is a particular intention you would like me to make for you. Also, please offer a prayer for my family, if you would be so kind.

      God bless,
      Ut
 
ethereality said:
Jim Blackburn’s introduction of deism describes my current situation, brought about by my suffering, ungranted petitions, and reception of the Eucharist and time spent before the Tabernacle without any recognizable interaction with God.

It’s brought me from being “hardcore Christian” to “agnostic deist”.

hardcore Christian:

  1. *]I know the Catholic Church is correct.
    *]We should criminalize feticide, pornography, and contraception (except in the case of rape prior to conception) as the Church says!
    *]The legal definition and practice of marriage should match the Church’s dogma.
    *]We should freely mention God at academic conferences. (e.g. I’ve seen an astronomer write, “Nature has given us a way to know the interior of stars.” We should instead say, “God has given us …”)
    *]Include Christian doctrine in tax-funded schools – after all, one goal of K-12 education is to teach facts and an appreciation of reality
    *]Pray as a means to cause change in political situations, e.g. pray a Rosary every day to obtain world peace.
    *]We should live like the early Christians, sharing everything in common and regarding ourselves as brothers and sisters in the Lord.

    agnostic deist

    1. *]I suppose we shouldn’t oppose the Catholic Church, just in case she’s correct, but I can’t promote her doctrine at the expense of others’ liberty because I don’t know that it’s true. So, for example, I can’t protest “Planned Barrenhood” killing fetuses at 13 weeks. It may be what’s best for women trying to live well for their fleeting days on Earth before they cease to exist at death.
      *]I wish I could quit going to church on Sundays, given how terrible the liturgy is and how I get nothing from the homilies, but the Church might be correct and I don’t want to go to hell if so.
      *]I don’t see the use of prayer, because it doesn’t seem to affect anything, nor does God respond.

      What should I do? To be frank, I’ve tried everything except quitting entirely and living as an atheist. I also don’t want to hear “God did the same thing to St. Teresa of Calcutta for 40 years!” That only comes across as more evidence that the Church is incorrect. How is it good to have a relationship with someone by shunning them as far as they can tell?

      One thing that brought this issue to the foreground for me was the question, “How can I persuade the Japanese to become Christian?” I realized I could not point to any benefit in my life, nor any recent evidence of God’s activity, nor any philosophical proof that didn’t have an equally plausible counterargument, nor any historical evidence that was clearly factual. I realized my entire Christian faith was based merely on believing what others have said – my entire faith was “just take my word for it.” So I’ve been stuck as an agnostic Christian ever since – continuing to practice the faith, crying out to God, and being met with silence.
Click to expand...

    1. God wants us to be true to our consciences. Faith stemming from fear is no true faith at all. But it can become so. I did not “find” God until I sought Him, until I began to seek truth from a sort of no-holds-barred perspective, wherever it might be found. He loves and honors that kind of honest pursuit, which finally led me to Him, the Christian God, to my own surprise in many ways, after having been raised Catholic.
 
My only advice is to spend some quiet time in the beauty of nature.
 
Abortion isn’t a religious issue to me: it’s a secular issue. We all used to be unborn children. An unborn child is destined to become a child just as sure as a child is destined to become an an adult with time. Abortion is no different than going up to a kid and gruesomely murdering him because “he’s different” or “he’s a burden” before he can become an an adult. It’s illogical, and sick. If the child is “unwanted” one should give him up for adoption, not chopping him to pieces.

As for unanswered prayers, remember this as I’ve heard it time and time again (it’s even in the Lord’s Prayer): “Thy will be done.” They key word is “Thy.” It’s not “my will be done”, but “thy will be done.” It’s up to God and God alone what will happen. Thus, we should always try our best to accept God’s will. If God allows us to be killed by a freak accident, then so be it. As God knows everything, perhaps by allowing the event to occur God has prevented us from doing a gravely evil act, or perhaps God has saved us from a potential falling away from Him. We can never know, so we should always leave everything to God’s will: small or large.

As to the homily/Mass bit, I personally find that different Priests give different types of homilies. I’d try to find a parish with a Priest who gives the best homilies suited to your faith. If all else fails, attend Mass out of obedience to God. Only the evil one will tempt you to stop going.
 
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