How to murder children: bible style

  • Thread starter Thread starter MoonlitYT
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I won’t go through this verse by verse, rather I will give you some advice. Go to each verse, and read it within its surrounding passage. Ask yourself the following questions:
  1. Is this text approving of the action this person is describing, or is it just stating that something happened or is going to happen? So is the passage prescriptive (telling me that I should do something) or descriptive (telling me that something happened or will happen) without moralizing about the action.
  2. If the passage appears to be approving of the action, is there a reason why? So for example, is the person guilty of a grievous sin such as idolatry, etc.
We need to get in the habit of examining these types of false claims ourselves so that we can respond to them. The only way to do so is to examine scripture.
 
I agree, generally, with your thoughts on analyzing these passages. But even after that analysis there are still troubling passages in which God is portrayed as either directly killing innocents (as in the 10th plague) or in ordering others to do so (as in the conquest of the promised land).

I think these passages are troubling and should be troubling. For myself, I do not believe they accurately record the actions or orders of God, but I would be interested in learning how others deal with these passages.
 
I think the Bible is accurate in recording the orders of God. I think when you look at the actions of the societies in which these judgments took place, they were more than justified, and quite frankly it should give us pause because in a lot of cases we practice the same types of things. Perhaps God is being merciful to us when we deserve the same judgment.
 
Last edited:
Hodos said:
I think the Bible is accurate in recording the orders of God.
Click to expand...
If you believe this, do you not find it troubling that God ordered the killing of thousands (at least) of innocents? Are you not at all troubled by the 10th plague?
 
TMC said:
If you believe this, do you not find it troubling that God ordered the killing of thousands (at least) of innocents? Are you not at all troubled by the 10th plague?
Click to expand...
My entire point is that we aren’t innocent. In that light, I am not troubled by the 10th plague because I think it was righteous judgment. I am actually amazed at the grace of God for being so patient.
 
Hodos said:
My entire point is that we aren’t innocent. In that light, I am not troubled by the 10th plague because I think it was righteous judgment. I am actually amazed at the grace of God for being so patient.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry, but I can’t understand this sentiment. How are little babies not innocent? In what way was its patient for those innocents? How is it righteous to order the slaying of women and children in warfare? I think one can believe those passages are historically accurate, or one can believe that God is just and merciful. Its pretty hard to believe both.
 
Well, for one, you are assuming that the dead were little babies. The Bible doesn’t say that. It says the firstborn of all Egypt, which can be read a few ways. Second, little babies aren’t innocent. Original sin, remember? That being said, the entire nation was under judgment, not just individuals. If you ask in what way was God patient? Well, since the fall of man, we have been wicked, if you read Genesis 6:5, that statement still applies. But if you want specifics about Egypt, they had enslaved the Israelites for roughly 400 years, and had ignored the nine previous warnings of Moses who was commanding that the Israelites be set free on God’s behalf. So there’s that.
 
Last edited:
I’m amazed whoever came up with that graphic forgot “mauled by bears (2 Kings 2:23-25)”.
 
Hodos said:
Well, for one, you are assuming that the dead were little babies. The Bible doesn’t say that. It says the firstborn of all Egypt, which can be read a few ways.
Click to expand...
But you would agree that significant number of them were babies and children, right?
Second, little babies aren’t innocent. Original sin, remember?
Click to expand...
To be guilty of something one must have actually done something themselves. A long dead ancestor eating a fruit from a tree does not make babies and children worthy of death.
That being said, the entire nation was under judgment, not just individuals.
Click to expand...
It wasn’t as though Ancient Egypt was a democracy where the people could overthrow the pharaoh. The people were victims of circumstance. God has the power to kill those responsible for crimes and ONLY those people, and yet – surprisingly – Pharaoh was among those NOT killed.
 
In the Christian understanding of the world, death isn’t the worst thing that can happen.
Hell is.
Also, in the Christian understanding, God created all life. And He is sovereign.
We all know that death will come to us all.
We even use the colloquial phrase “God called him home.”
So it stands to reason, and it’s consistent with Christian theology, that God has the right to decide the when and how of all our deaths.
We don’t know the eternal fate of these people, they, like all of us, face the final judgement, but there’s not reason to believe they were all damned.

Now some people WILL become enraged at the thought of a God who makes the final decision.

But, (and I’m being very cynical due to a long history of watching these types of debates), that the people most likely to fly into a rage at the sovereignty of God are perfectly fine with humans deciding other humans’ right to live or die.
 
I don’t say this often, but this is downright idiotic and nothing you’d hear from the more thoughtful and intelligent atheists who frequent CAF. Clearly, some bored person combed through the Bible with more simplistic literalism than the most fundamentalist Protestant. Did you take the time to look up these passages? Anybody who’s been to Sunday school can put these verses in their proper context.
 
A modern translation of Matthew 18:6 might read:

"But he that shall scandalize (molest) one of these little ones that believe in me, it would be better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea."

This is Christ’s promise of severe, just, punishment upon the souls of those who molest believing children (and probably who molest / rape believing adults, also). Jeffrey Epstein might be an example here.

The child victims are not targeted for punishment by God.
 
Hodos said:
Well, for one, you are assuming that the dead were little babies. The Bible doesn’t say that. It says the firstborn of all Egypt, which can be read a few ways. Second, little babies aren’t innocent. Original sin, remember? That being said, the entire nation was under judgment, not just individuals. If you ask in what way was God patient? Well, since the fall of man, we have been wicked, if you read Genesis 6:5, that statement still applies. But if you want specifics about Egypt, they had enslaved the Israelites for roughly 400 years, and had ignored the nine previous warnings of Moses who was commanding that the Israelites be set free on God’s behalf. So there’s that.
Click to expand...
None of that makes any sense to me. At all. So what if the youngest child that was killed was one or two, instead of an infant. That child has no responsibility for the sins of its parents, much less the sins of the Pharaoh.
 
Last edited:
GodIsPerfection said:
A modern translation of Matthew 18:6 might read:

"But he that shall scandalize (molest) one of these little ones that believe in me, it would be better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea."

This is Christ’s promise of severe, just, punishment upon the souls of those who molest believing children (and probably who molest / rape believing adults, also). Jeffrey Epstein might be an example here.

The child victims are not targeted for punishment by God.
Click to expand...
I’m pretty sure this verse is not referring to sexual abuse per se. Scandal is leading others to sin due to your own behavior (“Well Fauken is a Catholic and a Dominican, so since she lies, it’s okay if I lie too.”).
 
TMC said:
None of that makes any sense to me. At all. So what if the youngest child that was killed was one or two, instead of an infant. That child has no responsibility for the sins of its parents, much less the sins of the Pharaoh.
Click to expand...
Here’s my opinion, for whatever it’s worth. Sin has consequences, not just on a spiritual level, and not just on a personal level either. Sin hurts the community at large. My sins, even though they’re mine and were my choice alone, can affect other people. If I murder someone and deprive a child of their parent, that parent was innocent and so too was their child, but they too now suffer the consequence of my sin. We even acknowledge this in the Confiteor at Mass when we publicly confess “to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned”. Pharaoh had seen the power of God. Time and time again God had done what He said He would do if Pharaoh did not let His people go. Moses even asked Pharaoh beforehand to let God’s people go and what would happen if Pharaoh didn’t. It was Pharaoh’s choice to make, and it was a choice that would harm his people if he refused. And he knew that and refused anyway.

God humbled Himself by His Incarnation and died for us. He ransomed us out of the bondage of sin from a power which had no right to hold us. Pharaoh could not even be bothered to spare his people or even his own son.
 
Last edited:
TMC said:
I’m sorry, but I can’t understand this sentiment. How are little babies not innocent? In what way was its patient for those innocents? How is it righteous to order the slaying of women and children in warfare? I think one can believe those passages are historically accurate, or one can believe that God is just and merciful. Its pretty hard to believe both.
Click to expand...
The ones who were truly innocent would have wound up in Heaven or at least in limbo.

EVERYONE dies. Sure, we all want to live a long life & we have every right to cry fowl when a child is killed needlessly by violence & crime.

However, there is also the saying “only the good die young,” which while not really theological, does have some merit. When God calls the innocent home, they are being called home to their reward. God knows the hearts of all & knows what we would do later in life (if we lived a longer life). He knows all.

Yes, death is scary, but death is only evil if once doesn’t believe in the afterlife. The people who view God as vengeful because of the Ten Plagues don’t believe in life after death & don’t believe in a loving God.

I mean, God (though Moses) gave them 10 warnings before it happened. Pharaoh ignored every single warning. Does anyone who believe in Heaven actually think those first born sons were better off in Egypt during this time instead of in Heaven or Limbo?

This is where Faith comes in. To understand what God was doing here, you have to believe in life after death.
 
Please read @0Scarlett_nidiyilii first post, as I think it goes to the heart of the question.

Death, given by God, it’s not necessarily something bad to the person dying. If God “kills” someone truly innocent, you can be sure that person is in Heaven, as God is Just and Merciful. And if the person is not innocent, God will provide a just framework for that person to be judged.

The real punishment is for the persons that remain on earth, the real sinners in this case.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top