How to murder children: bible style

[Hodos]

Really. The babies were part of the sex cult?

Don’t know about babies specifically, but frequently children of very young age were part of the sex cults, which shows you the depravity of that society. But again, going back to our initial thread, is anyone not guilty of sin? You are operating under the assumption that we are in any way innocent, when you just agreed that we are all guilty of sin.

So you are agreeing that morality can change, but adding that not only God can order such a change, but also political leaders like Joshua?

No, I don’t agree that morality changes. I am saying that it is God who is the righteous and just judge, and that it is not my place to be the arbiter of morality as one who is justly condemned by sin. You keep trying to sit on God’s throne, and I keep telling you that you have no right to do so.

OK, so are you now agreeing with me that the reports in Scripture of these killings is not historical? Because that was my starting point, as you may recall.

Not at all. I believe that scripture reports an accurate historical narrative. The problem is you are making unproven assumptions that scripture doesn’t support.

 

[TMC]

Don’t know about babies specifically, but frequently children of very young age were part of the sex cults, which shows you the depravity of that society. But again, going back to our initial thread, is anyone not guilty of sin? You are operating under the assumption that we are in any way innocent, when you just agreed that we are all guilty of sin.

No, I have agreed that everyone has some degree of sin. You are operating under the assumption that anyone with any degree of sin is eligible for killing, which is a bit alarming.

No, I don’t agree that morality changes. I am saying that it is God who is the righteous and just judge, and that it is not my place to be the arbiter of morality as one who is justly condemned by sin. You keep trying to sit on God’s throne, and I keep telling you that you have no right to do so.

I have no interest in any throne, thanks. But you are saying that morality is not fixed, it is whatever God says it is in any particular moment - at least I think that is what you are saying.

Not at all. I believe that scripture reports an accurate historical narrative. The problem is you are making unproven assumptions that scripture doesn’t support.

Wait, you just said that you don’t believe Joshua did what Scripture clearly says he did. So which is it?

 

[phil19034]

Is this the standard then? Its OK to kill people if you think they will end up in heaven?

No, it’s not OK for humans to kill people because we have no idea if they will wind up in Heaven.

But GOD can because He knows what He’s doing and He eventually sends the Angel of Death for everyone. The time of death for each of us is ultimately up to God.

No, he did not. He warned Pharaoh. Who warned the innocent toddler, or his parents? How could his parents have even saved him?

When I said “warned them” I meant Pharaoh and his court (the people who were with Pharaoh every time Moses came. Moses gave them many warnings, everytime Pharaoh ignored Moses (and God), God increased the punishment.

I don’t see how believing in life after death is helpful. If the fact that people get their just desserts after dying is sufficient justification for killing them, then anyone could kill anybody at any time.

I really don’t know how you come to that conclusion!?!? The Fifth Commandment is “Thou shall not murder.”

I NEVER condoned humans killing other humans. I’m talking about God. God eventually takes EVERYONE’S life. We all die. When God chooses to call each one of us from this life is up to Him.

 

[Hodos]

No, I have agreed that everyone has some degree of sin. You are operating under the assumption that anyone with any degree of sin is eligible for killing, which is a bit alarming.

And this is the third time that I have explicitly denied that statement. You keep conflating yourself and your judgment with God’s judgment. I have consistently made the distinction between the two.

I have no interest in any throne, thanks. But you are saying that morality is not fixed, it is whatever God says it is in any particular moment - at least I think that is what you are saying.

No I am not. God’s morality stands. You are the one admitting that we are sinful, but saying God has no right to execute judgment upon that sin, making yourself the arbiter of God and instituting subjective morality. I am saying God is right to condemn my sin, and he is just when I receive judgment for it.

Wait, you just said that you don’t believe Joshua did what Scripture clearly says he did. So which is it?

I believe that Joshua executed what God told him to do. God however, said that he would drive the Canaanites out gradually, not all at once. Joshua conquered what God told him to conquer in the timeline that God intended for him to do so, that doesn’t mean that all the Promised Land was given into his hand at once. So again, you are making assumptions based on an incomplete reading of scripture and by adding to what scripture reports.

 

[petra22]

It is taking half the comment and making it whole, which is not the TRUTH. MSM does this ALL THE TIME!

 

[sealabeag]

Don’t you think God has the right to give and take life as He wills and as He sees fit?

 

[TMC]

When I said “warned them” I meant Pharaoh and his court (the people who were with Pharaoh every time Moses came. Moses gave them many warnings, everytime Pharaoh ignored Moses (and God), God increased the punishment.

But, according to Exodus, God did not just punish Pharaoh. He also punished any number of children. Do you find that consistent with a just God?

I really don’t know how you come to that conclusion!?!? The Fifth Commandment is “Thou shall not murder.”

I NEVER condoned humans killing other humans. I’m talking about God. God eventually takes EVERYONE’S life. We all die. When God chooses to call each one of us from this life is up to Him.

Then what do you think of Joshua reportedly killing entire towns, including the women and children? That was a human killing other humans, apparently because he believed God ordered it.

 

[phil19034]

Hodos:

According to whom?

According to Catholic teaching. Do you believe you are responsible for the sins of your parents? Or of political leaders?

We are not responsible for sins our parents. When it comes to political leaders, we are not responsible directly for their sins, but if we voted them in knowing the evil they would do, then we have some fault.

But regardless, in general, the answer is no, we are not guilty.

HOWEVER, the sins our parents & political leaders make have repercussions on society. For example, let’s say a parent is driving drunk or speeding recklessly & crashes the car leading to his/her child in the backseat dying. Was the child responsible for the parent’s sin? No. But did the child pay the ultimate price for the parent’s sin, yes.

The vast majority of sins affect multiple people. Very rarely does sin have no effect on other people. Sometimes the effect is miniscule. Sometimes the effect is emotional, sometimes it’s physically, sometimes it’s long term harm that isn’t noticeable, and sometimes it’s even death.

The point is, sin often has a negative impact on the innocent.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

But, according to Exodus, God did not just punish Pharaoh. He also punished any number of children. Do you find that consistent with a just God?

Yes. God is the author of life, of all existence. It is His right to determine how long each individual lives for. We are not guaranteed any amount of time. We might not like it, but that doesn’t make it unjust. I am also fully aware that there is zero chance of you accepting this answer, but that does not make it any less true.

 

[TMC]

And this is the third time that I have explicitly denied that statement. You keep conflating yourself and your judgment with God’s judgment. I have consistently made the distinction between the two.

No that is not what I am doing at all. I am saying that my understanding of God and His justice tells me that God did not unjustly kill a bunch of children. I am not substituting my judgment for God’s. I am saying it did not happen.

No I am not. God’s morality stands. You are the one admitting that we are sinful, but saying God has no right to execute judgment upon that sin, making yourself the arbiter of God and instituting subjective morality. I am saying God is right to condemn my sin, and he is just when I receive judgment for it.

I am not saying anything about what “rights” God has. I am saying something about what I think God did and did not do, informed in part by what I believe about God.

I believe that Joshua executed what God told him to do. God however, said that he would drive the Canaanites out gradually, not all at once. Joshua conquered what God told him to conquer in the timeline that God intended for him to do so, that doesn’t mean that all the Promised Land was given into his hand at once. So again, you are making assumptions based on an incomplete reading of scripture and by adding to what scripture reports.

You have gone back and forth a bit, however. Is Scripture correct in reporting that Joshua killed every man, woman and child in the towns that he conquered or not (and that God ordered him to do so)? I agree that is not historical - it is a mythologized exaggeration. You seemed to say you found it historical, and then to suggest it is not, and now you seem to say that it is. I am not clear on your position.

 

[Hodos]

The point is, sin often has a negative impact on the innocent.

Very well said.

 

[TMC]

The vast majority of sins affect multiple people. Very rarely does sin have no effect on other people.

This is undoubtedly true. But I don’t think the consequences of sin are manifested by God killing thousands of innocent children. That is why (among other reasons) I do not take the 10th plague to be literal.

 

[MNathaniel]

I won’t presume you haven’t thought about a topic before speaking about it, but I remain sceptical that you’ve read an equivalent of Trent Horn’s book if you’re still leaving questions or comments on a website suggesting you don’t understand the range of interpretations of these passages available to Catholics. Either you haven’t read this full range, or, if you did read such, you haven’t integrated it into your later thought processes.

If you were acknowledging: “These are the range of catholic positions so far as I know (source: Trent Horn, ‘Hard Sayings’) and here is my rebuttal to each and every one of those possible positions,” then your comments would read as informed to me.

As it is, questions like “Who warned the toddler?” and “It’s OK to kill people if you think they will end up in heaven?” do just make you look like you don’t understand the position you’re arguing against, and are strawmanning instead of steelmanning.

 

[Hodos]

No that is not what I am doing at all. I am saying that my understanding of God and His justice tells me that God did not unjustly kill a bunch of children. I am not substituting my judgment for God’s. I am saying it did not happen.

Nor did I ever say God unjustly killed anyone.

I am not saying anything about what “rights” God has. I am saying something about what I think God did and did not do, informed in part by what I believe about God.

The second statement completely negates the first and proves my claim.

You have gone back and forth a bit, however. Is Scripture correct in reporting that Joshua killed every man, woman and child in the towns that he conquered or not (and that God ordered him to do so)?

Which towns specifically?

I agree that is not historical - it is a mythologized exaggeration.

We don’t agree, because I specifically stated you are adding to scripture.

You seemed to say you found it historical, and then to suggest it is not, and now you seem to say that it is. I am not clear on your position.

No I didn’t. I said you are incapable of making the distinction between what scripture actually says, and your own assumptions about what it says. These two things are not equivalent.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

The vast majority of sins affect multiple people. Very rarely does sin have no effect on other people.

This is undoubtedly true. But I don’t think the consequences of sin are manifested by God killing thousands of innocent children. That is why (among other reasons) I do not take the 10th plague to be literal.

Whether it was literal or not is really not relevant. The point to all scripture is the “moral of the story.”

Regardless, God has every right to punish His people when we don’t obey Him.

But God ALWAYS gives tons of advanced notice. People who don’t have a hardness of heart are pretty good about reading the sign of the times. But God has often sent profits, angels, and now the Blessed Mother to give us warnings & opportunities to change our ways.

Also, if God chose to kill thousands of innocent children during the first Passover, we surely have reason to hope that God would have granted them mercy and allowed them to join Him in Heaven.

Afterall, God is allowed to make exceptions to His rules. We cannot.

 

[TMC]

I won’t presume you haven’t thought about a topic before speaking about it, but I remain sceptical that you’ve read an equivalent of Trent Horn’s book if you’re still leaving questions or comments on a website suggesting you don’t understand the range of interpretations of these passages available to Catholics. Either you haven’t read this full range, or, if you did read such, you haven’t integrated it into your later thought processes.

If you were acknowledging: “These are the range of catholic positions so far as I know (source: Trent Horn, ‘Hard Sayings’) and here is my rebuttal to each and every one of those possible positions,” then your comments would read as informed to me.

As it is, questions like “Who warned the toddler?” and “It’s OK to kill people if you think they will end up in heaven?” do just make you look like you don’t understand the position you’re arguing against, and are strawmanning instead of steelmanning.

You are confusing ignorance with disagreement. I am able to understand the arguments without agreeing with them.

 

[TMC]

Whether it was literal or not is really not relevant. The point to all scripture is the “moral of the story.”

I mostly agree with this statement, but mostly because it acknowledges (at least implicitly) that many of the ancient tales that inform our beliefs are not literal.

I do think the difference is important because people are capable of learning the wrong lessons from these tales. The idea that killing is justified if you think you have God on your side recurs far too frequently in history. Acknowledging that God has never actually ordered the slaughter of innocents, but that there may be other important lessons to be found in these passages, is important. At least to me.

 

[phil19034]

The idea that killing is justified if you think you have God on your side recurs far too frequently in history.

Here is the problem. Killing is never justified when you THINK you have God on your side. THINKING God is on your side is not enough to break the Fifth Commandment.

When it comes to war, today, we Catholics understand the “Just War Doctrine” far better than the people of the Old Testimate. So while God may have condoned a just war, it doesn’t mean He condoned war crimes.

 

[TMC]

Here is the problem. Killing is never justified when you THINK you have God on your side. THINKING God is on your side is not enough to break the Fifth Commandment.

Now, we Catholics today, understand the “Just War Doctrine” far better than the people of the Old Testimate. So while God may have condoned a just war, it doesn’t mean He condoned war crimes.

This I agree with. Unfortunately, there are people who do not just “think” God is on their side - they are sure of it. History is filled with killers that were certain God was on their side.

 

[phil19034]

Unfortunately, there are people who do not just “think” God is on their side - they are sure of it. History is filled with killers that were certain God was on their side.

Yeah, that’s a bunch of bull. (Not you, them.) Yes, criminals, dictators, etc always try to claim this. Sometimes it’s a straight up lie, and other times they have been tricked by demons.

This is why Jesus Christ came & gave us the Church. So people would be able to better determine what is God’s Will vs what the devil is trying to trick us into doing.