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MarysGirls
Guest
Sweet! Thanks!
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MarysGirls
Guest
I realize that it is not accepted. That is why I don’t claim it as fact and I don’t like it when others do. But I also don’t like it when people claim it’s false. I will be careful though. Thanks for the link.
Pax!
Nicole
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Sancte_Iacobus
Guest
J+M+J
I cannot believe what I am reading in this thread!
How can we have people here, who call themselves Catholic, not want the whole of humanity to be joined to the one true faith: The Holy Catholic Church? … Why do we have missionaries? Why evangelization? Why dogma? Why the Cross? Why Christ?
Tell me, fellow Catholics, how exactly have you managed to rationalize the following dogmatic statements from our Holy Fathers of time immemorial?
You masquerade your religious pluralism as “charity” or “ecumenism” while all that you are doing is making a mockery of the Church (and only Church) our Lord Himself founded and the doctrine that the Church has held so dear to her bosom for the past two millennia … doctrine that martyrs have spilled their own blood in defense of.
Shameful. Truly shameful.
In Corde Regis,
Joshua
I cannot believe what I am reading in this thread!
How can we have people here, who call themselves Catholic, not want the whole of humanity to be joined to the one true faith: The Holy Catholic Church? … Why do we have missionaries? Why evangelization? Why dogma? Why the Cross? Why Christ?
Tell me, fellow Catholics, how exactly have you managed to rationalize the following dogmatic statements from our Holy Fathers of time immemorial?
… and for those who believe the Church began to exist in the 1960s:
It absolutely shames me to see such ignorance of the faith. Some of you, to put it quite frankly, seem completely embarrassed of the teachings of the Church.
You masquerade your religious pluralism as “charity” or “ecumenism” while all that you are doing is making a mockery of the Church (and only Church) our Lord Himself founded and the doctrine that the Church has held so dear to her bosom for the past two millennia … doctrine that martyrs have spilled their own blood in defense of.
Shameful. Truly shameful.
In Corde Regis,
Joshua
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Joshua,
Granted, there will be some giving in, but I see it more on the level of theologoumena or practices, rather than in a giving up of the dogmatic Truths of each Church.
Please spend some time to study the Eastern and Oriental Traditions, and pray for the spiritual fruit of understanding, wisdom and patience in that endeavor.
Blessings,
Marduk
The differences among the apostolic Churches is not in the Faith, but in the manner by which each has historically expressed that same Faith once for all delivered to the Saints. The way unity will be achieved among apostolic Churches is to fathom and grasp each others’ distinct theological languages, expressions, spiritualities, and practices by going back to the sources (i.e., Sacred Tradition) - more specifically, in the first millenium when the Church was still united. It is, as stated, based on the assumption that we already have the same Faith. So conversion is not the proper goal, but rather understanding.
Granted, there will be some giving in, but I see it more on the level of theologoumena or practices, rather than in a giving up of the dogmatic Truths of each Church.
Please spend some time to study the Eastern and Oriental Traditions, and pray for the spiritual fruit of understanding, wisdom and patience in that endeavor.
Blessings,
Marduk
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nordskoven
Guest
Nobody wants to wrangle about theological nuances more than Eastern Orthodox adherents but the point of contention here is whether Peter is the head of Christ’s Church on Earth. The consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart by Peter, in union with all bishops, one one solemn, public occasion in their respective cathedrals and for the conversion of that nation, is given at Fatima by Our Lady of the Rosary as the “only” means to a period of peace in the world. That includes the conversion of Russian Orthodox to embrace Petrine authority, as well as millions of Russian Muslims and countless atheists.
Lord, grant us this consecration or Russia as requested by You through Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatiam now, and turn the heart of Peter away from the United Nations and other world bodies and back to Christ’s world body, the Church, to effect this invitation to the Immaculate Heart that she may be exalted in this great miracle wrought in You, and show her to us as Your particular delight. AMEN
“Pray the daily Rosary for peace.” --Our Lady of the Rosary, Fatima, Portugal
Lord, grant us this consecration or Russia as requested by You through Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatiam now, and turn the heart of Peter away from the United Nations and other world bodies and back to Christ’s world body, the Church, to effect this invitation to the Immaculate Heart that she may be exalted in this great miracle wrought in You, and show her to us as Your particular delight. AMEN
“Pray the daily Rosary for peace.” --Our Lady of the Rosary, Fatima, Portugal
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John_Larocque
Guest
I have found that many of the people who complain about the “fourth” secret or that the Vatican is somehow still being disobedient to the Fatima messages, or that Sister Lucia was locked up, gagged, or impersonated by the Vatican are outside the mainstream.
blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/02/fatima-and-russia.html
There’s also a Sister Lucy interview somewhere which might also enrage a few “Fatimists”.
blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/02/fatima-and-russia.html
There’s also a Sister Lucy interview somewhere which might also enrage a few “Fatimists”.
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Andrew,
I did research on Fatima and accepted its message about 6 years ago even before I translated to Catholicism. So my memory is spotty. I just recalled from my research at the time that there was an event with relevant bearing on the events that led to WW2 the day that the lights appeared. Rakovsky’s name stood out at the time (the “R” and the "k"s in the name stuck in my mind for some reason).
I just did a quick internet search, and the “event” was an interrogation of Rakovsky while in prison. Under the influence of a drug-induced stupor, he revealed plans for a planned Russian invasion of Germany in connection with Poland. This was the first time such connivances were made known to Hitler, and I don’t think it’s hard to imagine that the discovery of that information precipitated in Hitler’s mind for the first time a plan to invade Poland and (inadvertently or purposely) thereby spark WW2.
Blessings,
Marduk
Sorry I missed this post earlier.
I did research on Fatima and accepted its message about 6 years ago even before I translated to Catholicism. So my memory is spotty. I just recalled from my research at the time that there was an event with relevant bearing on the events that led to WW2 the day that the lights appeared. Rakovsky’s name stood out at the time (the “R” and the "k"s in the name stuck in my mind for some reason).
I just did a quick internet search, and the “event” was an interrogation of Rakovsky while in prison. Under the influence of a drug-induced stupor, he revealed plans for a planned Russian invasion of Germany in connection with Poland. This was the first time such connivances were made known to Hitler, and I don’t think it’s hard to imagine that the discovery of that information precipitated in Hitler’s mind for the first time a plan to invade Poland and (inadvertently or purposely) thereby spark WW2.
My personal opinion is that this was done by HH JP2 of thrice-blessed memory, which was the principle cause of the Fall of communism. I don’t recall when he did it, but I remember that when the Berlin wall fell, there was talk in religious circles of the rather coincidental timing of the events (of the fall of the Wall and the consecration). I understand that there is a segment of Fatima devotees who did not think that consecration met all the conditions that the Theotokos requested at Fatima. I don’t know what these people are expecting, but I suspect these folks imagine the Fatima message has to do with the conversion of Russia to Catholicism.
Blessings,
Marduk
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nordskoven
Guest
The Aurora Borealis is an easy explanation for the “unknown light” that was the sign foretold to Sister Lucia that another war was on the horizon. Yet this Aurora Borealis was dipping abnormally far south, and was a blood red. One observer thought a neighboring town was on fire the light was so fiery.
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mardukm
Guest
Not just one observer. Reports of the time indicate fire trucks actually being deployed in some places.
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dzheremi
Guest
It never ceases to amaze me how some Catholics will spit on the Orthodox churches out of one side of their mouths while feigning astonishment or grief out of the other that they do not unite with the RCC. When confronted, the popular defense is “Well, you should read/hear some of the things they say about us!” I have. That’s why I’m so disappointed to see that attitude replicated by those who, by their own logic, ought to know better.
Do we actually care about the reunification of the Body of Christ? How can we achieve this if we are more content to rip our brothers to shreds for their supposed errors than to actually try to understand why it is that they believe that we are in error and they are not? In my experience, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have some good points and defenses that are worth giving a lot of thought to, and a beautiful, rich faith that is deserving of our utmost respect.
Do we actually care about the reunification of the Body of Christ? How can we achieve this if we are more content to rip our brothers to shreds for their supposed errors than to actually try to understand why it is that they believe that we are in error and they are not? In my experience, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have some good points and defenses that are worth giving a lot of thought to, and a beautiful, rich faith that is deserving of our utmost respect.
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josie_L
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I never heard of this light, can you give me information about this or a website I can go to?
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KyivAndrew
Guest
Bonsoir, Josie. Comment ca va? Tres bien?
Josie, Marduk posted this link from another Catholic sight above catholicforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30077 and if you go to post #4 there and down abit the ForumAdmin lists many of the periodicals that noted those lights in 1938. I remember reading that date as a kid in the 80s as further testimony to the veracity of Fatima.
Hope that helps.
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mardukm
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KyivAndrew
Guest
It was done in 1984. The Pope in Vatican Square:Dear brother Andrew,
It is my personal opinion is that this was done by HH JP2 of thrice-blessed memory, which was the principle cause of the Fall of communism. I don’t recall when he did it, but I remember that when the Berlin wall fell, there was talk in religious circles of the rather coincidental timing of the events (of the fall of the Wall and the consecration). I understand that there is a segment of Fatima devotees who did not think that consecration met all the conditions that the Theotokos requested at Fatima. I don’t know what these people are expecting, but I suspect these folks imagine the Fatima message has to do with the conversion of Russia to Catholicism.
Blessings,
Marduk
"Mother of the Church! Enlighten the People of God along the paths of faith, hope, and love! Enlighten especially the peoples whose consecration and entrustment by us you are awaiting. Help us to live in the truth of the consecration of Christ for the entire human family of the modern world.
In entrusting to you, O Mother, the world, all individuals and peoples, we also entrust to you this very consecration of the world, placing it in your motherly Heart.
Immaculate Heart! Help us to conquer the menace of evil, which so easily takes root in the hearts of the people of today, and whose immeasurable effects already weigh down upon our modern world and seem to block the paths towards the future!
From famine and war, deliver us.
From nuclear war, from incalculable self-destruction, from every kind of war, deliver us."
For some reason when HH JP2 in a kneeling prayer position made that last specific pleading, I got the sense by the emotion in his voice that he really feared that as THE danger of that time.
The complete official Vatican statement on Fatima and the messages are here:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html
When people start posting to sites that do not agree with the Vatican’s interpretation, I worry. We have to remain loyal to the Holy See, but there is a whole cottage market now of looking for holes in the Vatican’s analysis and arguing that Rome is hiding something. I believe to go down that road is very dangerous for it ultimately leads many faithful to distrust their own Pope, and that surely could not have been one of the fruits of Mary coming to Fatima. God Bless!
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Sancte_Iacobus
Guest
Many Orthodox reject the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory and, most importantly, refuse to acknowledge the Papacy as the sole, visible head of the Church. This is the faith that they must accept.
The Orthodox Church is most certainly in schism. They are outside of the one, true Church where salvation can solely be attained. How some here can claim that our Lady of Fatima has no concern as to whether or not Russia converts to Catholicism is verging on blasphemy. I have shown you that the Catholic Church has defined on multiple occasions throughout history that there is no salvation unless one is united to the one, true Church of Christ and its visible head the Roman Pontiff … and yet you express no desire for them to convert even though they are jeopardizing their very souls?!
I refuse to equate the vast treasury of Eastern Catholicism with schismatics. Make no mistake, I have the most profound love and esteem for all that the venerable traditions of the Eastern Churches contain, but the Orthodox Church is not the legitimate Eastern lung of the Church but is rather a schismatic entity that has usurped the traditions of the true Eastern Churches that were always in communion with Rome.
Every comment I have seen here that supports a “no-conversion-necessary” position is backing it up using purely emotional and relativistic arguments.
The true argument bases itself on charity. Not "niceness". True charity involves having the utmost concern for your neighbor’s welfare. Having established that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church (this is dogma), how can it be called charitable when you willfully allow a person to feel no need to be part of the sole ark of salvation?
This is as cruel and diabolical as one can get.
In Corde Regis,***
Joshua
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John_Larocque
Guest
As it pertains to the church hierarchs that signed on the Union of Brest, this is historically false. They were all originally affiliated with the See of Constantinople (which was then in schism with Rome). Put another way, these churches (sugh as the UGCC) were originally Orthodox (and hence “schimastic entities” as you word it) but are now in communion with Rome.
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Sancte_Iacobus
Guest
You are citing incidents that have occurred long after the fact of the Eastern Churches initial submission to Rome. Granted the relationship between the Eastern Churches and the See of Peter has always been extremely tumultuous, but all the Patriarchates (Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch) of the first few centuries had always acknowledged the Pope as Supreme Pontiff and visible head of the Church.
Even in regard to the most “ambitious” of the Eastern Patriarchs (Constantinople) the First Council of Constantinople declared in 381 that, “The Bishop of Constantinople shall have the primacy of honour after the Bishop of Rome.” (canon iii).
In addition, the writings of the early Church Fathers give testimony to the universally held Primacy of Peter.
-St. Cyprian *(also venerated by the Orthodox Church), The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256). *
In Corde Regis,
Joshua
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mardukm
Guest
They did come into submission. They came into mutual communion with one another. Or, if you want to use the word “submission,” Rome submitted to them just as much as they submitted to Rome.
Blessings
M
mardukm
Guest
Since you admit they are only in schism, then, once again, the proper approach to unity is understanding, not conversion.
Blessings
C
Catherine_Grant
Guest
Note from Moderator:
Please read the below reminder from the Important Forum Information sticky thread about the appropriate and inappropriate usages of the word schism and its derivatives before continuing to post in the Eastern Catholicism forum.
Please read the below reminder from the Important Forum Information sticky thread about the appropriate and inappropriate usages of the word schism and its derivatives before continuing to post in the Eastern Catholicism forum.
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