How to pray for Russia?

[Albizzi]

Or maybe what we’ll have is not conversion, but unity with our Orthodox brethren gained through understanding each other.

No. Because when she spoke of the conversion of Russia, she meant from communism, not Orthodoxy.

Blessings,
Marduk

That is your interpretation.
Conversion means… conversion and nothing other.
Our Lady certainly is satisfied that the communism no longer rules the Russia, but She cannot be that the schism from Rome is continuing, and that the Orthodox don’t believe in the Immaculate conception or in the Assumption dogmas.

 

[Seamus_L]

The conversion was to be FROM Communism, to Catholicism.

                               Now Russia has certainly not become Catholic, nor has it been converted to the Russian Orthodox Church either. One of the world's highest abortion rates makes a rather strong case against that belief.

                              In some circles it now seems popular to suggest that the Blessed Mother wanted Russia converted TO Orthodoxy, but you have to really perform some ecumenical acrobatics to suggest that the she would appear to three devout Roman Catholic children and ask them to begin a devotion, part of which includes the Immaculate Heart of Mary (rejected by the Orthodox) and that the objective of those devotions would be the conversion of Russia to a religion that rejects certain dogmas that all Catholics are required to believe, not to mention the fact that that same church is still staunchly Anti-Catholic in Russia. 

                              For some reason, ultra-Orthodox types have no trouble following that line of reasoning.

 

[Albizzi]

The conversion was to be FROM Communism, to Catholicism.

                               Now Russia has certainly not become Catholic, nor has it been converted to the Russian Orthodox Church either. One of the world's highest abortion rates makes a rather strong case against that belief.

                              In some circles it now seems popular to suggest that the Blessed Mother wanted Russia converted TO Orthodoxy, but you have to really perform some ecumenical acrobatics to suggest that the she would appear to three devout Roman Catholic children and ask them to begin a devotion, part of which includes the Immaculate Heart of Mary (rejected by the Orthodox) and that the objective of those devotions would be the conversion of Russia to a religion that rejects certain dogmas that all Catholics are required to believe, not to mention the fact that that same church is still staunchly Anti-Catholic in Russia. 

                              For some reason, ultra-Orthodox types have no trouble following that line of reasoning.

Anyway it is a false and fallacious argument not to pray for Russia’s conversion by fear of “offending” the Orthodox. I don’t understand it in no way:
1/ If there is a “communion” (even a partial one) between the Orthodox and Catholic churches, the Orthodox must feel glad that we pray for them.
2/ On the contrary, if there is no communion, they would despise our prayers since they aren’t worthy to their eyes.
In both case they wouldn’t be offended.
So I recommend you to grasp your rosaries immediately.

 

[dzheremi]

Anyway it is a false and fallacious argument not to pray for Russia’s conversion by fear of “offending” the Orthodox. I don’t understand it in no way:
1/ If there is a “communion” (even a partial one) between the Orthodox and Catholic churches, the Orthodox must feel glad that we pray for them.
2/ On the contrary, if there is no communion, they would despise our prayers since they aren’t worthy to their eyes.
In both case they wouldn’t be offended.
So I recommend you to grasp your rosaries immediately.

How do you know so well what other people feel or would feel? Do you know any Orthodox Christians? I do, and I reckon they might be pretty offended if I were to tell them that I were praying for their conversion from Orthodoxy to Catholicism. It would be a total break from the tradition of respect for each others’ faith that constitutes real friendship, it would be demeaning to them as fellow Christians to somehow suggest that Orthodoxy does not possess completely valid sacraments and orders (which is the Catholic view, if I’m not mistaken), and it would ultimately hurt all involved for no gain whatsoever. In fact, no gain can truly come from such an endeavor. If they were to convert to Catholicism they would be receiving what we already believe to be the same sacraments that they received while in their own Orthodox Church, and it would do nothing at all to heal the divided body of world Christiandom. Simply switching sides on the great divide does nothing to heal it or to bring us closer to healing it. To do that you need real respect for each other as people who all together strive to follow Christ within their own traditions, not simply this zeal that “they must unite with us on our terms and ought not be offended at hearing that” as though the Orthodox or other non-Catholic position doesn’t matter at all in the first place. That is disgusting and the exact opposite of the attitude that can actually bring us closer together, if not into full communion (that will happen on GOD’S TIME, not ours, fussy Catholics and Orthodox!) then at least into greater understanding and love and concern for our fellow Christians.

And to preempt a possible reply: I am well aware that it is popular in some Orthodox circles (though I have no idea their area) to deny that the Catholic Church is in fact Christian (or, in some ways, even a church…oh, the apologetics I’ve seen!), so it might seem like it is unfair or foolish to suggest that we recognize in the Orthodox communion what at least some of them do not recognize in our communion. However, that is precisely what we are to do. A million speeches filled with anti-Catholic vitriol won’t change the fact that the Orthodox sacraments are valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church, and on an invidividual level hopefully you can observe even here that there are plenty of Orthodox Christians who do not see Catholics (or at least individual Catholics, given obvious disagreements with the CC) in such a bad light. This is not, as far as I’ve seen, purely an internet phenomenon. Why push such people into a state of antagonism?

 

[mardukm]

Anyway it is a false and fallacious argument not to pray for Russia’s conversion by fear of “offending” the Orthodox. I don’t understand it in no way:
1/ If there is a “communion” (even a partial one) between the Orthodox and Catholic churches, the Orthodox must feel glad that we pray for them.
2/ On the contrary, if there is no communion, they would despise our prayers since they aren’t worthy to their eyes.
In both case they wouldn’t be offended.
So I recommend you to grasp your rosaries immediately.

None of us here in the EC Forum pray for the “conversion” of Orthodox out of fear of offending them. We do it out of a sincere belief that the source of the schism is centuries of misunderstanding over the distinct theologies among the apostolic Churches. Though I believe the only real distinction is papal infallibility, I’m sure you’ll agree, if you’ve ever debated the point with them, that the Orthodox not in communion with Rome have a lot of misconceptions about the teaching. So even on that matter, mutual understanding is the key, not a “you are wrong and we are right” mentality.

I do believe each side has to give up something, but they are not on matters of dogmatic belief, but rather on matters of theologoumena, practices, and attitudes.

Blessings

 

[trophybearer]

None of us here in the EC Forum pray for the “conversion” of Orthodox out of fear of offending them. We do it out of a sincere belief that the source of the schism is centuries of misunderstanding over the distinct theologies among the apostolic Churches. Though I believe the only real distinction is papal infallibility, I’m sure you’ll agree, if you’ve ever debated the point with them, that the Orthodox not in communion with Rome have a lot of misconceptions about the teaching. So even on that matter, mutual understanding is the key, not a “you are wrong and we are right” mentality.

I do believe each side has to give up something, but they are not on matters of dogmatic belief, but rather on matters of theologoumena, practices, and attitudes.

Blessings

I’m pretty sure I understand exactly what papal infallibility is, and I outright reject it. How does someone who considers himself Orthodox then go and pray for the conversion of the Orthodox? Maybe “conversion” just wasn’t the best word, but if you really do pray for the “conversion” of the Orthodox I admit, I am baffled.

 

[mardukm]

I’m pretty sure I understand exactly what papal infallibility is, and I outright reject it. How does someone who considers himself Orthodox then go and pray for the conversion of the Orthodox? Maybe “conversion” just wasn’t the best word, but if you really do pray for the “conversion” of the Orthodox I admit, I am baffled.

That’s why I put the word in quotes. I don’t pray for the conversion of Orthodox. I pray for unity.

Btw, I would like to know about your understanding of papal infallibility. Whenever I have debated the matter with other Orthodox (so far) I always notice a misconception on the matter. Would you mind discussing it (not on this thread, though)? If not, that’s OK.

Blessings

 

[Albizzi]

That’s why I put the word in quotes. I don’t pray for the conversion of Orthodox. I pray for unity.

Btw, I would like to know about your understanding of papal infallibility. Whenever I have debated the matter with other Orthodox (so far) I always notice a misconception on the matter. Would you mind discussing it (not on this thread, though)? If not, that’s OK.

Blessings

Yes, eventually the main thing is to pray.
God only knows what is good for the Christianity.
If nobody prays, He will not help us.
One has to worry about the lack of prayer: Since the faith weakens, the prayer weakens too and the world is sick, and the union between the Catholics and Orthodox remains remote in spite of the blah blah “dialogue”.

 

[mardukm]

and the union between the Catholics and Orthodox remains remote in spite of the blah blah “dialogue”.

Great strides have already occurred. Perhaps you can educate yourself on the matter. Just for starters: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5667072&postcount=36

Blessings

 

[Albizzi]

Great strides have already occurred. Perhaps you can educate yourself on the matter. Just for starters: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5667072&postcount=36

Blessings

I don’t deny this, but I am convinced that Russia’s conversion, the come back of the Orthodox in the RCC, will be the fruit of prayer and of the Consecration of this country.
In that sense it will originate from a divine intervention.
Indeed Sr Lucia said this will be a “miracle of conversion”.

 

[Aramis]

That’s why I put the word in quotes. I don’t pray for the conversion of Orthodox. I pray for unity.

Btw, I would like to know about your understanding of papal infallibility. Whenever I have debated the matter with other Orthodox (so far) I always notice a misconception on the matter. Would you mind discussing it (not on this thread, though)? If not, that’s OK.

Blessings

The problem, Brother Mardukm, is that a great many Latins hold the same erroneous beliefs on papal infallibility and papal dogmatic decrees.

Vatican I didn’t grant the pope Sole and Exclusive dogmatic determination; it merely removed the requirement for a general council to make the declaration. The Pope still consults with the bishops, albeit not of need in council.

It didn’t say everything the pope says is correct, either, only that his moral and doctrinal teachings ex-cathedra (“from the chair”) are not going to be in error.

But many Latins, and the Russian Orthodox priests who comment upon the Catholics in print, seem to share the belief that popes can not err at all, and that the pope need not have the consent of his brother bishops to declare dogma.

The lack of proper catechesis in the Roman Church is frightening.

The Russians decry the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos. But they believe she is special, and for the same reasons. It is fundamentally about a different understanding of the effects of Adam’s sin. The IC is pretty meaningless under much of Byzantine theology, simply because Original Sin is seen as changing the nature of mankind (in a Lamarkian evolution kind of way), rather than as a stain left on all of us from Adam. In that sense, the IC makes Mary inhuman… which is dogmatically incorrect, since Christ took his human nature from the Theotokos.

 

[Hesychios]

Yes, eventually the main thing is to pray.

Prayer is good!

If nobody prays, He will not help us.

Actually, this has not been established. God can intervene in any matter if it is His intention to do so, regardless of how we may feel about it.

We cannot say He will nor can we say He will not. We can’t put God in a box.

 

[Hesychios]

… I am convinced that Russia’s conversion, the come back of the Orthodox in the RCC, will be the fruit of prayer and of the Consecration of this country.

It’s OK to think that the Orthodox are returning to the RCC if the Orthodox also see the RCC as returning to Orthodoxy, because at least there can be real hope of reconciliation.

If it looks like a one-sided exercise, it will be a sad delusion and fail.

Actually, the Holy Theotokos is unnecessary to effect reconciliation between us. We can do this ourselves wth the help of God.

Prayer to the Theotokos is good, asking for her help is a super idea, but that is only one possible way reconciliation can be effected, not the only way. Any voice, vision, angel or what-have-you that says otherwise is suspect.

As for the Consecration, another unnecessary exercise. The Russian nation has, like France, been especially devoted and ‘consecrated’ to her for hundreds of years. I have stated this before, the idea that a special ‘consecration’ using particular ‘formula’ under the right conditions by a certain person smacks of conjuring and magic. It is an undignified low point in Mariology and people all caught up in this seem to have trouble even recognizing the obvious.

 

[John_Larocque]

I still like the earlier poster (don’t know where) who said that maybe we should be praying for the conversion of America. I guess you could toss in Europe and China. Russia is not exclusive in its “errors” (eg. rate of abortion). Thank God it is no longer one of the leading exporters of militant atheist communism.

 

[Hesychios]

…For some reason, ultra-Orthodox types have no trouble following that line of reasoning.

Ultra-Orthodox types?

You mean among the EC? :knight1:

Ultra-Orthodox types within Holy Orthodoxy typically don’t believe in the apparition at all.

 

[Hesychios]

I still like the earlier poster (don’t know where) who said that maybe we should be praying for the conversion of America. I guess you could toss in Europe and China. Russia is not exclusive in its “errors” (eg. rate of abortion). Thank God it is no longer one of the leading exporters of militant atheist communism.

Portugal could use some prayers now, that’s or sure! It’s circling the drain with most of the rest of Europe.

 

[Albizzi]

It’s OK to think that the Orthodox are returning to the RCC if the Orthodox also see the RCC as returning to Orthodoxy, because at least there can be real hope of reconciliation.

If it looks like a one-sided exercise, it will be a sad delusion and fail.

Actually, the Holy Theotokos is unnecessary to effect reconciliation between us. We can do this ourselves wth the help of God.

Prayer to the Theotokos is good, asking for her help is a super idea, but that is only one possible way reconciliation can be effected, not the only way. Any voice, vision, angel or what-have-you that says otherwise is suspect.

As for the Consecration, another unnecessary exercise. The Russian nation has, like France, been especially devoted and ‘consecrated’ to her for hundreds of years. I have stated this before, the idea that a special ‘consecration’ using particular ‘formula’ under the right conditions by a certain person smacks of conjuring and magic. It is an undignified low point in Mariology and people all caught up in this seem to have trouble even recognizing the obvious.

Hesychios,
It is amazing that you are speaking of France bcs Sr Lucy, the seer of Fatima, reported these words of our Lady (your Theotokos) about the delayed Consecration of Russia:

“Make it known to My ministers that given they follow the example of the King of France in delaying the execution of My command,89 they will follow him into misfortune … They [the ministers of the Catholic Church] did not want to heed My command. Like the King of France they will repent of it, and they will do it, but it will be late. Russia will already have spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions against the Church.”

I explain you: In the year 1689 Jesus appeared Marguerite-Marie Alacoque asking her to require the king Louis XIV to consecrate his kingdom to the Sacred Heart. He never complied. Neither did his successor, until 1789, 100 years later day to day, when the atheist Revolution began. The actual king Louis XVI was jailed. He made the consecration very lately with the poor resources he had in prison, before he was guillottined in 1789.
This to show that it is not recommended to gamble too long with the requests of Heaven.

Now you are saying that the consecration of Russia is an unnecessary exercise. Pls allow me to think the exact contrary. At the least, it cannot do any harm to Russia and since you believe it will not have any effect, I hope it will not offend you in any way like some fearful minds in Vatican are afraid.

 

[Aramis]

Fortunately, Fatima is NOT doctrinal; not a required part of the deposit of faith.

The damae done by the excess devotion to Fatima is open disdain for brethren the Catholic Church has said share enough of the fullness of the Catholic Faith to be given all sacraments but ordination.

 

[Albizzi]

Fortunately, Fatima is NOT doctrinal; not a required part of the deposit of faith.

The damae done by the excess devotion to Fatima is open disdain for brethren the Catholic Church has said share enough of the fullness of the Catholic Faith to be given all sacraments but ordination.

When 70000 witnesses saw the sun dancing before them the exact day and hour (oct 13th 1917 at noon) that our Lady predicted to happen months before, adding “SO THAT ALL MAY BELIEVE”, they didn’t wonder if this astronomical prodigy was doctrinal or not.

I well understand that Fatima is much embarassing for many people.
For my part, this embarassment disappeared when I began to dig in the issue.

 

[Aramis]

When 70000 witnesses saw the sun dancing before them the exact day and hour (oct 13th 1917 at noon) that our Lady predicted to happen months before, adding “SO THAT ALL MAY BELIEVE”, they didn’t wonder if this astronomical prodigy was doctrinal or not.

I well understand that Fatima is much embarassing for many people.
For my part, this embarassment disappeared when I began to dig in the issue.

The more I’ve read into it, the less I like it.