How to re-educate so that people will understand about abortion?

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Pregnancy cannot be determined within a week of conception. The time frame would be greater than that, which gives the man and the woman plenty more time to have sex with numerous other partners.
I didn’t mean that within a week of becoming impregnated the woman would know she’s pregnant. What I was saying is that once pregnancy is determined, we can also determine the week of gestation accurately, thus the woman only has to know the partners she had in a one week period in order to determine paternity.
The law does not compel her to reveal her medical condition to anyone.
It should fall under the reasonable disclosure clause.
It also protects her from other sources revealing her medical condition to a third party.
Yup, I addressed that above.
If she wants to share the news with the father, that is her right, but not a legal obligation.
Correct, but it should be.
So it appears that you are arguing for a moral obligation for the mother to reveal her pregnancy to the father. I’m in the same place I have always been on this one. If she is moved to do so, wonderful. If she is not moved to do so, that’s okay, too. If he wants to pursue active fatherhood, fine. If he chooses not to, that makes it more difficult in some ways for the mother and child, but there again she can apply for child support. And that is the price the man pays for indiscriminate sexual activity. And her price: motherhood.
I think that a pregnancy has the reasonable expectation of affecting the father’s life. Therefore the mother should have the legal obligation, under this existing clause, to inform the father of the pregnancy. I’m not talking about any type of moral obligations, I’m talking about legal ones, and legal ones that already exist.
 
Limerick,

Sorry for the delayed response, you made some good arguments so it took me a bit to put together a defense. Also, I ask that you speak charitably. In other words don’t say “Can you spell …” Instead ask the question in a conversational tone.

Yes I can spell HIPPA, which is a rather intriguing question to ask because I can also spell, HIPAA which is the acronym I think you intended to use. Additionally I can spell, Health Information Privacy Accountability Act of 1996 which is what HIPAA stands for.
**
Thanks for the spelling lesson. It wasn’t a typo; I was an imbecile.**

I stated that a woman should be legally obligated to inform the father, unless the father is deemed a danger to the mother or the child. No, the mother should not be able to simply say the father is a danger. If the father is a proven danger then, and only then, should he not be informed of the pregnancy.

**How would this danger be proven, and how long would it take? Long enough so the mother could not pursue having an abortion at all, for instance? **

In order to invoke HIPAA as a protection against this legal compulsion I would have to be advocating that someone other than the mother be tasked with informing the father. HIPAA protects people from having their information disclosed by someone else, it does not protect people from being compelled to reveal their own medical conditions and history. If this were the case, then insurance companies could not have pre-existing conditions clauses.

So here, no doctor, PA, technician, receptionist or any other medical personnel who had a hand in diagnosing the pregnancy could be compelled to reveal the pregnancy to the father. I’m with you …

You want to know something else I can spell, Reasonable Disclosure Clause. This is part of HIPAA, in case you didn’t know. The Reasonable Disclosure Clause of HIPAA states that if a person’s diagnosis or prognosis has the reasonable expectation of a direct effect on another person’s life, health, or well-being than said person is legally compelled to share their diagnosis or prognosis with the person, or people, it has this reasonable expectation in relation to.

This is akin to the familiar “reasonable and customary” phrase one finds throughout a medical insurance policy. When I was pregnant with my live birth, my own insurance company, BC/BS, refused to talk with me on the phone or communicate with me in writing about my wanting to have an amniocentesis done, even though they knew I was bumping up against 16 weeks’ gestation. I told them so by phone and mail. By the time they agreed to allow the procedure the optimal window to have the procedure was long past. I filed a formal complaint with the Insurance Board, who also ignored me. The complaint was forty pages long, with copies of all pertinent phone logs, names of participants, letters that I had sent, etc. Nothing. The gripe was over “reasonable and customary charges”.

For example if you are diagnosed with HIV and then you have sexual intercourse with someone and do not inform them that you are HIV+ you can be charged with attempted murder because this diagnosis had a reasonable expectation of effecting your sexual partner’s life.
**
How often has this happened in real life and not on “Law and Order”?**

I think that a woman being pregnant has the reasonable expectation of affecting the father’s life. If you disagree with this please explain how paying child support for 18 years does not affect someone’s life.

HIV is deadly; pregnancy carried to term is not, for purposes of this discussion. I know first-hand how 18 years of child support payments affect someone’s life, from both sides of the fence. My ex-husband was married six times. I was wife #5. He had a child with wife #3; I met this child when she was seven years old. From the time she was seven until the time we were divorced, or from 1980 through 1988, I paid his support for this child because he could not hold a regular job. I was traveling all over the United States, to White Fish, Montana in the dead of winter and Phoenix, Arizona in the absolute heat of summer, making precious little money, and going to the post offices in all these towns for postal money orders to send the the child’s mother. Thousands and thousands. Yes, I know what the impact is. I also experienced receipt of child support from this same man, from 1989 when our divorce became final until our daughter reached the age of majority in 2005. He never showed for the hearing on support, nor did he appear when I took him to court to petition for more money. Pregnancy is not deadly. There is no medical reason for the mother to have to disclose it. In a civilized world people would not entrap other people, but sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t know it until after they have done so.
(On dealers, drug runners and the like:) If this is proven, not merely alleged, and if it is current, not something dredged up from the past, I agree.

I’m sorry; I have no control over that awful smiley face up there. I’ve tried 3 times to delete it, but it seems to want to hang around. Part 2 on the way …
 
Do you believe that a physically handicapped woman should be legally compelled to get an abortion? Should she be sterilized to prevent future pregnancies?
**
Absolutely not in both cases. But if she is determined to be unable to care for that child** then other arrangements should be made for the care of said child. Whether these arrangements are temporary or permanent would depend upon whether she is able to be physically rehabbed.

Do you believe that a mentally handicapped woman should be legally compelled to get an abortion? Should she be sterilized to prevent future pregnancies?

Mental handicaps come in all different shapes and sizes. As in the earlier question about physical handicaps, a doctor or panel of medical personnel would have to determine her fitness for childcare. Now here we’re getting attorneys involved and tremendous court costs and filing costs - I am neither a doctor nor a lawyer so don’t press this too far or I will have to go watch “America’s Next Top Model”.

Do you believe that an emotionally handicapped woman should be legally compelled to get an abortion? Should she be sterilized to prevent future pregnancies?

I wasn’t. And I wasn’t. Perhaps I should have been, but my daughter seems to have turned out well..

Do you believe that impoverished women should be legally compelled to get abortions? Should they be sterilized to prevent future pregnancies?

In 40 years in the workforce I have had one year where my income rose above the government’s stated poverty level. (Even today, at 57, I cannot afford to live in a 1-bedroom apartment in a small town, unencumbered by a child to raise.) This is where child support needs to be fair, because a mother has significant difficulties working and caring for a child at the same time. No opulence - just fairness.

Exactly how are we to make the call on whether or not someone is spiritually capable of raising a child? If we can make this call should a woman who is deemed spiritually incapable of raising a child be legally compelled to have an abortion. Should they be sterilized to prevent future pregnancies?

Watch and see what goes wrong. That’s how we tell. I believe spirituality blends with mental, emotional and physical states of mind - if any of these components is out of balance the spirit, and the woman’s faith, hope and trust, may suffer to the point where it is incapacitating, thus endangering an infant or toddler or child or adolescent.

If you answered no to any of the above questions then you believe that men and women should have different standards and rights applied to them. And, you should just be aware that you are prejudice.

Ah! (You mean “prejudiced”.) I have had many discussions on this board with men and women who rake feminists over the coals, declaring that we insist that men and women should be entitled to the same rights, the same opportunities, the same advancements. Now here I am, saying, "wait a minute, these men and women who populate your questions are different because their situations are different. Would you find me more reasonable if I responded that physically, mentally and emotionally handicapped men should be sterilized just as they enter puberty? The standard that I would apply to all of these people is this: don’t use “love” to get sex, and don’t use sex to get “love”. If people really understood the game that goes on between boys and girls, men and women, maybe they would be as sickened by it as I am.

Only if you’re applying the same standards to women and men. Otherwise, it’s a lot of men and you are prejudice.

Sorry - I don’t understand your point here.

Only a man who is legally proven to be a danger to the woman or the child should not be notified. This is not a decision that should rest on the sole authority of a woman who could be emotionally, mentally, physically, financially, and/or spiritually incapable of making such a decision. After all we wouldn’t want a convicted child molesting female to decide who can have contact with her child would we?

**There is an obvious window for abuse in this scenario, but if the woman had been convicted of molestation, someone, maybe a PO or a therapist, would be keeping some tabs on her. Yes, this would be dangerous, but no more dangerous than someone with Munchausen’s by Proxy or any number of other mental problems. We cannot protect all of the people all of the time. **

The problem is that the man might not even know about the embryo. I’m not asking you to defend the entire legal system. I am asking you why a woman’s parental rights should start before the man’s do?

The man’s rights and the woman’s rights - and responsibilities - begin when they unzip their pants, not at conception and not when pregnancy is detected.

Limerick
 
Ah! (You mean “prejudiced”.) I have had many discussions on this board with men and women who rake feminists over the coals, declaring that we insist that men and women should be entitled to the same rights, the same opportunities, the same advancements. Now here I am, saying, "wait a minute, these men and women who populate your questions are different because their situations are different. Would you find me more reasonable if I responded that physically, mentally and emotionally handicapped men should be sterilized just as they enter puberty? The standard that I would apply to all of these people is this: don’t use “love” to get sex, and don’t use sex to get “love”. If people really understood the game that goes on between boys and girls, men and women, maybe they would be as sickened by it as I am.
You believe that a woman should be able to decide if a man should be notified of the pregnancy based on many, many issues but you don’t believe that anyone should be looking over the woman for these same issues. That stance betrays a prejudice against men.
The man’s rights and the woman’s rights - and responsibilities - begin when they unzip their pants, not at conception and not when pregnancy is detected.
I agree with this statement 100%. However, how can the man’s rights be protected if the woman can conceal the pregnancy from him? How can the man even have rights if the pregnancy can be concealed from him?
 
You believe that a woman should be able to decide if a man should be notified of the pregnancy based on many, many issues but you don’t believe that anyone should be looking over the woman for these same issues. That stance betrays a prejudice against men.

I agree with this statement 100%. However, how can the man’s rights be protected if the woman can conceal the pregnancy from him? How can the man even have rights if the pregnancy can be concealed from him?
**Ask God. Woman’s body is His design.

Limerick**
 
I didn’t mean that within a week of becoming impregnated the woman would know she’s pregnant. What I was saying is that once pregnancy is determined, we can also determine the week of gestation accurately, thus the woman only has to know the partners she had in a one week period in order to determine paternity.

No. If she had seven or 70 partners in one week, she could not know until DNA tests were conducted.

It should fall under the reasonable disclosure clause.

But it does not. So until that time, we maintain the status quo.

Correct, but it should be.
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According to you …**

I think that a pregnancy has the reasonable expectation of affecting the father’s life. Therefore the mother should have the legal obligation, under this existing clause, to inform the father of the pregnancy. I’m not talking about any type of moral obligations, I’m talking about legal ones, and legal ones that already exist.

Which legal obligations already exist that apply to this situation?

L
 
You know, I am still awaiting a response to the question posed to limerick so many posts ago.

We have concession that limerick is in support of abortion.
We have concession from limerick that abortion kills a human life.
My next question has to do with the current laws in this country.
Are you also in support of laws against murder?
Well?
 
I asked Him, He told me to tell you that abortion is wrong and anyone who is complicit in the legality of abortion is also sinning. 😃
That’s HILARIOUS!!

But did He answer your question? Maybe He doesn’t think men should have any say in the matter.

Limerick
 
You know, I am still awaiting a response to the question posed to limerick so many posts ago.

We have concession that limerick is in support of abortion.
We have concession from limerick that abortion kills a human life.

Well?
**
I do support the laws that are currently on the books against murder. The laws do not currently include abortion, nor do they seem to consider abortion in the same light as they do murder.

If abortion somehow, someday becomes illegal again in this country, then I will acknowledge that law but I will not support it. I would encourage any woman with an unexpected pregnancy who was considering abortion to consult with God, and that would be only if she asked for my help or my opinion. It would still be a matter of free will for her, between her and God, and the final decision as to her course of action would be solely her responsibility in every sense of the word.

Limerick**
 
**I do support the laws that are currently on the books against murder. **
What about choice?

If you are to be consistant (an intellectually honest) in your words, then you should also be railing against these laws that limit choice.
Yet you do not. Your support for these laws betrays an anti-choice position.

This inconsistancy also shows that it has never been about the choice, it has always been about life.
 
What about choice?

If you are to be consistant (an intellectually honest) in your words, then you should also be railing against these laws that limit choice.
Yet you do not. Your support for these laws betrays an anti-choice position.

This inconsistancy also shows that it has never been about the choice, it has always been about life.
**Choice has not been eliminated simply because an act becomes illegal. Free will is intact regardless.

Limerick**
 
Choice has not been eliminated simply because an act becomes illegal. Free will is intact regardless.

Limerick
This rings hollow in the face of all of your previous posts.
You initially make the claim that you are in full support of a womens right to choose to kill, and now it appears you are backing down to support of a choice only because it is legal.

So which is it?
Are you in support of the choice to kill a human life, or are you merely in support of what is legal?
 
What about choice?

If you are to be consistant (an intellectually honest) in your words, then you should also be railing against these laws that limit choice.
Yet you do not. Your support for these laws betrays an anti-choice position.

This inconsistancy also shows that it has never been about the choice, it has always been about life.
Others, in this thread, have stated that one can identify as pro-life and still be pro-captial punishment because they are different issues. But, you claim that if one is against choice in other matters they are anti-choice and not pro-choice. You’re logic isn’t consistent.
 
Others, in this thread, have stated that one can identify as pro-life and still be pro-captial punishment because they are different issues. But, you claim that if one is against choice in other matters they are anti-choice and not pro-choice. You’re logic isn’t consistent.
Actually it is.
It is a fallacy in the way that abortion supporters use the term choice.

If you do not define the choice, be prepared for the word to be used in ways you do not intend.

In this instance, abortion supporters lay claim that pro-life individuals are against free choice, yet they routinely allow choice to be curtailed.
It is an exposure of the double standard.
 
Actually it is.
It is a fallacy in the way that abortion supporters use the term choice.

If you do not define the choice, be prepared for the word to be used in ways you do not intend.

In this instance, abortion supporters lay claim that pro-life individuals are against free choice, yet they routinely allow choice to be curtailed.
It is an exposure of the double standard.
Many pro-life are also pro-capital punishment, that is also an exposure of a double standard. Their claim is contained within the abortion debate yours reaches outside the abortion debate. Your position is the one which is not cogent.
 
Actually it is.
It is a fallacy in the way that abortion supporters use the term choice.

If you do not define the choice, be prepared for the word to be used in ways you do not intend.

In this instance, abortion supporters lay claim that pro-life individuals are against free choice, yet they routinely allow choice to be curtailed.
It is an exposure of the double standard.
I suspect pro-abortion folks would encourage this kind of argument and discussion.
 
This rings hollow in the face of all of your previous posts.
You initially make the claim that you are in full support of a womens right to choose to kill, and now it appears you are backing down to support of a choice only because it is legal.

So which is it?
Are you in support of the choice to kill a human life, or are you merely in support of what is legal?
**
No, sir. I have said all along that I support a woman’s right to choose from the vast array of options available to her should she experience an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy.** I do not support killing. I support a woman’s unencumbered exercise of God-given free will, without government pundits or religious zealots keeping tabs on her every move, without their insistence on attempting to manipulate her choice through the media, through group efforts as assembled by church members, or one-on-one. I contend that no one is entitled to know any detail about a woman’s reproductive life except those in whom she places her absolute trust.

Limerick
 
This rings hollow in the face of all of your previous posts.
You initially make the claim that you are in full support of a womens right to choose to kill, and now it appears you are backing down to support of a choice only because it is legal.

So which is it?
Are you in support of the choice to kill a human life, or are you merely in support of what is legal?
**Your interpretation of my posts are inside out and 100% inaccurate.

Limerick**
 
**
No, sir. I have said all along that I support a woman’s right to choose from the vast array of options available to her should she experience an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy.** I do not support killing. I support a woman’s unencumbered exercise of God-given free will, without government pundits or religious zealots keeping tabs on her every move, without their insistence on attempting to manipulate her choice through the media, through group efforts as assembled by church members, or one-on-one. I contend that no one is entitled to know any detail about a woman’s reproductive life except those in whom she places her absolute trust.

Limerick
It isn’t true of you to say that you do not support killing (which is actually murdering a baby), because you said on this forum in many places that you believe that abortion is one of those options…

so…

…what if those in whom she places her absolute trust are evil and encourage her to abort her child, she shouldn’t have access to a second opinion? She should only trust those to whom suggest this evil to her?

Also, would you consider Catholics as religious zealots, in your opinion? Or just anyone who would suggest to her that taking the life of her child is against God’s law?
 
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