How to re-educate so that people will understand about abortion?

[limerick]

If a person has Christ, he wants to attain Heaven so as to be with Him for all eternity. However, this person is not the only person who has Christ and wants to attain Heaven, and many of those other people are those “extraneous folks.”

Additionally, God created us as social beings, which is not to say that all of us are extroverts who want to be constantly surrounded by people, but that we do not live in isolation, nor are we meant to. Part of our road to salvation is dealing with people around us. You may say that you want to isolate yourself, but what do you do when your electricity goes out? Do you go out and try to fix the transformer or electric lines yourself or do you rely on the employees of the company to fix them? Do you raise your own food or do you get some from the grocery store?

All that aside, we are a part of the communion of saints. On a spiritual level, we pray for each other, help each other, perform works of mercy for each other. We need others if only to obtain the sacraments: even priests need other priests for confession.

You look at every bad thing which some Catholic has done to you and you blame the Church. It is not the fault of the Church–people who do bad things, people who do not exercise proper oversight and allow bad things to happen, these are the faults of people in the Church, these are actions contrary to what the Church teaches and is supposed to be.

If instead you meditate on Christ and what He did for us, and why He did it, and what He did it for, then you can begin to glimpse a beautiful vision. Consider how things would be if everyone was a perfect Catholic–that is what God’s will is for us. The fact that people mess this up is not the fault of the Church but the fault of the people as individuals.

If I were trying to make a tapestry and the threads were messed up, weak and easily broken, improperly dyed and so losing their color, and so on, would I blame the tapestry? No, the problem would lie with the threads.

As long as you do not correctly define the source of the problem, you will search for the wrong solution. I am a sinner, you are a sinner, we are all sinners. If we cannot each see how sin is what damages, and how each of us has contributed some damage, then we will focus on the wrong thing and direct our efforts in the wrong direction.

**So.

Some Catholics are bad people. Limerick must tolerate the gas man and the electric repair man if she wants to get to heaven. Food doesn’t grow on trees, for heaven’s sake - she must go to the grocery. If she fails these basic human tasks she will not be qualified to even get God’s autograph.

I cannot meditate on Christ, I don’t get Christ, I don’t understand why Christ died on the cross for “our sins” and we are still tagged with Original Sin. I don’t get how His hanging on a cross was a good thing, how that absolves us of our sins, but not the sins we commit here on earth because those we have to burn off in Purgatory if we’re lucky enough. And, of course, I will be frying in Hell because I paid somebody to aspirate a fetus out of my uterus 38 years ago, so it’s a moot point for me.

If I had your tapestry and it became such a tangled problem I would take a pair of shears and shred the thing, toss it in the trash, scream at my pets and go outside to watch the birds at my feeder. I would blame the Chinese who made the tapestry and the Viet Namese who made the thread.

Progress, not perfection. Most days I just want to quit this place. Nobody is going to re-educate anybody on abortion, birth control, relationships, kindness, the musical circle of fifths or fluid dynamics. Everyone has a position and they’re stickin’ to it. I’m glad you’re wrapped up in Catholicism. I see how you’re making an attempt to enlighten. But where I’m concerned, the best thing to do right now is stop**.

Limerick

 

[St_Francis]

**So.

Some Catholics are bad people. Limerick must tolerate the gas man and the electric repair man if she wants to get to heaven. Food doesn’t grow on trees, for heaven’s sake - she must go to the grocery. If she fails these basic human tasks she will not be qualified to even get God’s autograph.**

Sheesh, since the last time I saw you respond to a comment about people being social beings by explaining how unsociable you are, I thought I’d go into it a little further to show that it doesn’t mean you have to be a social butterfly; you still are a social being even if you chose a high level of solitude.

I cannot meditate on Christ, I don’t get Christ, I don’t understand why Christ died on the cross for “our sins” and we are still tagged with Original Sin. I don’t get how His hanging on a cross was a good thing, how that absolves us of our sins, but not the sins we commit here on earth because those we have to burn off in Purgatory if we’re lucky enough. And, of course, I will be frying in Hell because I paid somebody to aspirate a fetus out of my uterus 38 years ago, so it’s a moot point for me.

Right now I will only address the bolded part. You said that you went to confession about this. If you went to confession and confessed this, then God has forgiven you. That is the *point *of Confession, and there is no apparent reason for you to think that you will be “frying in Hell” for any sin which you have confessed.

If I had your tapestry and it became such a tangled problem I would take a pair of shears and shred the thing, toss it in the trash, scream at my pets and go outside to watch the birds at my feeder. I would blame the Chinese who made the tapestry and the Viet Namese who made the thread.

And how’s that way of handling problems working for you?

Progress, not perfection. Most days I just want to quit this place.

And yet you keep coming back. Why?

Nobody is going to re-educate anybody on abortion, birth control, relationships, kindness, the musical circle of fifths or fluid dynamics. Everyone has a position and they’re stickin’ to it.

You certainly are pessimistic. Maybe there are other goods besides re-education of the debaters which will occur as a result of these conversations.

I’m glad you’re wrapped up in Catholicism. I see how you’re making an attempt to enlighten. But where I’m concerned, the best thing to do right now is stop.

Limerick

Why would I stop? You are the one who continues to read what I write, you are the one who is bothered by what I write.

 

[St_Francis]

…I cannot meditate on Christ, I don’t get Christ, I don’t understand why Christ died on the cross for “our sins” and we are still tagged with Original Sin. I don’t get how His hanging on a cross was a good thing…****
Why are we still born with original sin on our souls despite the fact the Christ died for us?

When I see people asking this question, they are usually coming from the point of view that it is unfair that we are born with original sin. However, this is not true. We have inherited from our ancestors a lack of perfection, but we do not somehow *deserve *to be born with perfection, any more than we deserve to be born rich because our ancestors were rich until one of them gambled it all away.

The effect of Christ dying for our sins was that there was a vast treasury of grace created from which we were then able to draw, especially in the sacrament of Confession. He opened the gates of Heaven which had been shut against us since the Fall.

Look at it this way: as I leave work, my co-worker hands me some tickets to an opera. I had absolutely no chance of getting to this place, and now I have tickets!!!

Am I upset that he left me to attend to the details of getting home and cleaned off and changed, of getting to the place on time, etc? No, I am happy to have the tickets, and I do my best to take care of the rest.

In the same way, by His death on the cross Christ opened the gates of Heaven to humanity. But He didn’t do everything for us–we still have to do some of the work of getting there. Going back to the analogy above, I have to accept the fact that in order to get in, I have to dress up. I have to accept the fact that the opera house is across town and not next door. I have to accept the fact that the opera starts and ends at certain times. In the same way, in order to get to Heaven, I have to accept certain facts, like that my soul needs to be well-dressed.

I don’t get how His hanging on a cross was a good thing, how that absolves us of our sins, but not the sins we commit here on earth because those we have to burn off in Purgatory if we’re lucky enough…

 

[Drawmack]

When a priest or other person expresses his own opinion on a matter about which the Church has not spoken, he is not speaking *as *a member of the teaching magisterium but as a private person. His opinion is not in agreement with yours. I personally think that the argument about slavery is a very good argument. I also personally think that there are times when we ought to keep the rhetoric racheted up. Will you now leave any organization of which I am a member?

If a priest wrote something under the name Bob Smith and did not release any pictures of himself in his blacks then he would not be acting as a member of the clergy. However, when a priest writes using the title of Fr. and has pictures of himself in blacks then he is presenting the appearance of utilizing the authority his official office brings with it.

To answer your question it doesn’t even make sense, it’s not comparable to the situation at hand.

And yet you say you left the Church over this issue? And that you are not the only one? That makes no sense.

I left the Church over more than one issue, this was the primary issue. Maybe it doesn’t make sense to you – but it does to me otherwise I wouldn’t have left.

 

[St_Francis]

If a priest wrote something under the name Bob Smith and did not release any pictures of himself in his blacks then he would not be acting as a member of the clergy. However, when a priest writes using the title of Fr. and has pictures of himself in blacks then he is presenting the appearance of utilizing the authority his official office brings with it.

No, he’s not, because it’s not an issue of Church teaching. If a Nobel-prize–winning chemist proclaimed his opinion on the sacramental nature of marriage, would you give him more credence than anyone else? So why would you give a priest more credence on a matter unrelated to *his *specialty?

To answer your question it doesn’t even make sense, it’s not comparable to the situation at hand.

Sure it does. You left the Church over a difference of opinion in a matter unrelated to Church teaching. I am sure that there are plenty of people still within the Church who agree with you, even some priests, and maybe even some bishops! Why does the fact that some people disagree with you override the fact that some will agree with you?

I left the Church over more than one issue, this was the primary issue. Maybe it doesn’t make sense to you – but it does to me otherwise I wouldn’t have left.

Now I am a little confused. You left the Church primarily over the issue of how “high” the rhetoric should be in the abortion issue?

 

[St_Francis]

And, the provided list of excommunicable offenses (posted earlier in the thread) includes abortion but does not include raping children. Therefore, those who keep telling me I’m wrong should really study the rules of the Catholic Church a little bit more thoroughly.

You want my honest opinion. The six year old would be better off murdered than raped, especially being raped for 3 years. Do you have any idea the life long damage and suffering sexual abuse unleashes on an innocent child. They would be better off dead.

From God’s point of view, murdering the child is the worst that a person could do. There is a difference between burning down to the ground something someone built and defacing it. The sin is against the victim, but it is also against God.

Someone who is alive can recover from a crime, even such a heinous crime as this, but someone who is dead can never recover.

The 9-year-old girl has the opportunity to recover from the many sins perpetrated against her, which include the killing of her two children. The two children who were killed will never have the opportunity to recover from the crime committed against them, to live the lives that God had wanted to give them, nor will they have the chance to unite themselves with Christ and enter into Heaven.

Abortion is a greater sin than rape, but this is hard for people to grasp. That is why it has the penalty of automatic excommunication where rape, which everyone agrees is a horrible crime, does not.

Moreover, excommunication is not a retributive vengeful punishment meant to grind down the recipient. It is a medicinal reaction to something someone has done, a reminder to the rest of us that abortion is a terrible sin despite what we or others may think. The arms of the Church are always open to receiving the excommunicate back under the most mild of conditions.

Let me ask you this: if the rapist were told by the court that his only punishment would be to stay in prison until he was willing to go to Confession and to say publicly that he had been wrong, would you think that was an adequate punishment for his crime?

 

[Drawmack]

No, he’s not, because it’s not an issue of Church teaching. If a Nobel-prize–winning chemist proclaimed his opinion on the sacramental nature of marriage, would you give him more credence than anyone else? So why would you give a priest more credence on a matter unrelated to *his *specialty?

I might be mistaken here so please correct me if I am. Abortion is sinful and therefore is a moral issue, correct? Priests are to be the shepherds of their flock in matters of morality and spirituality, correct? So, how is abortion outside of a priest’s specialty?

Sure it does. You left the Church over a difference of opinion in a matter unrelated to Church teaching. I am sure that there are plenty of people still within the Church who agree with you, even some priests, and maybe even some bishops! Why does the fact that some people disagree with you override the fact that some will agree with you?

The Catholic Church (I assume that is the Church you’re talking about – there is more than one you know) upheld the excommunications and did not insist on the excommunication of the step-father. This is not a difference of opinion with some members. This is not a difference of opinion at all. This is a theological precept which I cannot, will not, and don’t believe anyone should accept as truth which the magisterium has, while acting as the magisterium, upheld.

Now I am a little confused. You left the Church primarily over the issue of how “high” the rhetoric should be in the abortion issue?

Nope

 

[Drawmack]

From God’s point of view, murdering the child is the worst that a person could do. There is a difference between burning down to the ground something someone built and defacing it. The sin is against the victim, but it is also against God.

Someone who is alive can recover from a crime, even such a heinous crime as this, but someone who is dead can never recover.

So, you think that a child who is murdered before reaching the age of reason (i.e. a child of 6) would not go to heaven? If the child would go to heaven, then how do you know that God would rather have someone experience years, quite possibly a lifetime, of mental and emotional torment instead of sitting within the beatific vision?

The 9-year-old girl has the opportunity to recover from the many sins perpetrated against her, which include the killing of her two children. The two children who were killed will never have the opportunity to recover from the crime committed against them, to live the lives that God had wanted to give them, nor will they have the chance to unite themselves with Christ and enter into Heaven.

What were the chances that she, or the children, would have survived until the fetuses reached a viable stage? If the step-father had simply killed the little girl when she was 6, instead of raping her for 3 years, she would be in Heaven right now partaking of the beatific vision and those other two babies would not have been killed. Like I said, She’d be better off dead.

Abortion is a greater sin than rape, but this is hard for people to grasp. That is why it has the penalty of automatic excommunication where rape, which everyone agrees is a horrible crime, does not.

There are various types of rape – no rape is right and all of them are reprehensible. That being said there is a difference between adult date rape and raping an innocent 6 year old child. Much like there are different types of murder based on mitigating circumstances. The magisterium clearly teaches that those who abort a fetus are excommunicated while those that rape a 6 year old child are not.

Moreover, excommunication is not a retributive vengeful punishment meant to grind down the recipient. It is a medicinal reaction to something someone has done, a reminder to the rest of us that abortion is a terrible sin despite what we or others may think. The arms of the Church are always open to receiving the excommunicate back under the most mild of conditions

Okay, and I believe that same paragraph should be rewritten to say raping a child along with abortion.

Let me ask you this: if the rapist were told by the court that his only punishment would be to stay in prison until he was willing to go to Confession and to say publicly that he had been wrong, would you think that was an adequate punishment for his crime?

Let me answer that with a question. Why do you keep entangling the social ramifications of an action with the theological ramifications of an action? Do corporeal punishments assuage eternal ones? The two have nothing to do with one another. It does not matter what his debt to society is, or should be, what matters is that his debt to God does not include excommunication but the mother’s does.

 

[St_Francis]

I might be mistaken here so please correct me if I am. Abortion is sinful and therefore is a moral issue, correct? Priests are to be the shepherds of their flock in matters of morality and spirituality, correct? So, how is abortion outside of a priest’s specialty?

Abortion is part of a priest’s specialty. *Tactics *are a matter of opinion.

 

[St_Francis]

…]The Catholic Church (I assume that is the Church you’re talking about – there is more than one you know)

This *is *a Catholic board after all.

… upheld the excommunications and did not insist on the excommunication of the step-father. This is not a difference of opinion with some members. This is not a difference of opinion at all. This is a theological precept which I cannot, will not, and don’t believe anyone should accept as truth which the magisterium has, while acting as the magisterium, upheld.

This is a matter of discipline, not dogma, and therefore *not *a theological precept. Catholics do not have to agree with the Church wrt the reasons for excommunication.

Nope

So what’s happening here is that we are discussing two separate issues, one the level of rhetoric in the national abortion debate, and the other the excommunication of those who killed 2 unborn children. Let’s try to keep them separate because I get a little confused and may not respond appropriately.

 

[WillieWonka]

It is true that the rapist was not excommunicated. The Church reserves excommunication for a few situations, one of which is abortion.

Which would be worse: for the stepfather to rape his step-daughters or to kill them?

Which would be worse: for the stepfather punch the pope or rape a 9-year-old?

 

[Drawmack]

This *is *a Catholic board after all.

And membership is open to all people, just asking you to be specific.

This is a matter of discipline, not dogma, and therefore *not *a theological precept. Catholics do not have to agree with the Church wrt the reasons for excommunication.

Referring to yourself a Catholic means that you either agree with or ascent to, both of which are a type of agreement, the entirety of the teachings of the Catholic Church. If you claim to be Catholic and to not agree with or ascent to the entirety of these teachings you are what is commonly referred to as a cafeteria Catholic. The Catholic Church teaches and demonstrates that abortion excommunicates someone while raping a six year old does not. Justify it however you have to in order to maintain your belief system, but do not expect me to do the same. And, do not expect me to not point out the relativistic morality at play in this.

So what’s happening here is that we are discussing two separate issues, one the level of rhetoric in the national abortion debate, and the other the excommunication of those who killed 2 unborn children. Let’s try to keep them separate because I get a little confused and may not respond appropriately.

The fact that abortion incurs excommunication while raping a six year old does not is part of the rhetoric.

 

[St_Francis]

And membership is open to all people, just asking you to be specific.

When I write the Church with a capital C, I am referring the the Catholic Church. When I refer to another type of ecclesial community, I will use its name: the Baptist church, 7th Avenue Methodist Church, etc.

Referring to yourself a Catholic means that you either agree with or ascent to, both of which are a type of agreement, the entirety of the teachings of the Catholic Church. If you claim to be Catholic and to not agree with or ascent to the entirety of these teachings you are what is commonly referred to as a cafeteria Catholic. The Catholic Church teaches and demonstrates that abortion excommunicates someone while raping a six year old does not. Justify it however you have to in order to maintain your belief system, but do not expect me to do the same. And, do not expect me to not point out the relativistic morality at play in this.

What the Catholic Church teaches is that without repentance, the rapist will burn forever in the fires of Hell.

In order to *emphasize *the wrongness of certain actions which people do not always realize, some actions call for excommunication. This is a matter of canon law, *not *part of the teaching of the Catholic Church, a law which has been set up to *remind *people that those who commit the sin of abortion have ***also ***committed a mortal sin.

Look at you yourself. You think that the worse crime was the rape. The taking of two innocent lives does not seem as bad to you as the rapes, which were terribly heinous acts. What the Church is saying is not, people can see how bad raping children is, well, they’re wrong about that. What the Church is saying is that people can see how bad raping children is, and they need to be reminded that killing, esp of the unborn, is worse in the eyes of God.

The fact that abortion incurs excommunication while raping a six year old does not is part of the rhetoric.

No, because the issue of abortion is unrelated to Church teaching. Abortion is wrong, was wrong before Christ appeared on earth, was wrong before God spoke to the Jews. Abortion is wrong for everyone, at any time, at any place.

 

[St_Francis]

Which would be worse: for the stepfather punch the pope or rape a 9-year-old?

The fact that something is an excommunicatable offense does not mean that its the worst act a person could commit, but that sometimes people forget how bad that particular act is.

The very fact that people still believe that killing the unborn children was not as heinous as the rapes shows the need for the canonical penalty. Everybody understands that the rapist needs to repent or burn in the fires of Hell eternally. People get that.

But people do not get that abortion is also a mortal sin, for which one will burn in the fires of Hell eternally if they do not repent.

Both states are easily resolved: one has only to confess and *perhaps *publicly admit and abjure the error.

 

[allhers]

And, the provided list of excommunicable offenses (posted earlier in the thread) includes abortion but does not include raping children. Therefore, those who keep telling me I’m wrong should really study the rules of the Catholic Church a little bit more thoroughly.

You want my honest opinion. The six year old would be better off murdered than raped, especially being raped for 3 years. Do you have any idea the life long damage and suffering sexual abuse unleashes on an innocent child. They would be better off dead.

Every person who reads this and has been put through the horrors of what that child lived
through already in her young and innocent life can see what YOU think ought to be their
reward…DEATH.

The good Lord choose LIFE for ALL of us.

No innocent life deserves death, not in or outside of the womb!

Shame on you and all who think the way you do.

All of God’s innocent children deserve the life He wants for them, NOT a death sentence!!

When if ever, will some of you people learn that???

Your words sound exactly like the evil words that I imagine is just one of the ways that
Satan tells everyone who has ever thought of having an abortion…
“They will be better off dead”… what a bunch of lies the evil one fills hearts and minds
and souls with when they turn from His Church and His teachings.

Most of all, when they turn from He, HIMSELF, you obviously never really believed that He is present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Blessed Sacrament or no matter what
you thought about anyone else, you wouldn’t leave HIM.

Do you know what Jesus’ first words were when He started His public ministry?

“Repent-and believe in the Gospel”!

I suggest you listen to Jesus and all that He told His Church, forget what YOU think, your
own thinking is messed up.

If you don’t want to have anything to do with HIM and HIS church, fine, move on, but don’t
try to murder every little innocent life in this world because of the wrong choices you
yourselves and others have made.

 

[Drawmack]

When I write the Church with a capital C, I am referring the the Catholic Church. When I refer to another type of ecclesial community, I will use its name: the Baptist church, 7th Avenue Methodist Church, etc.

Hmmmm, so every other church besides the catholic church is an ecclesial community and not a church? You are aware that is it direct conflict with what the catholic church teaches in the CCC correct?

What the Catholic Church teaches is that without repentance, the rapist will burn forever in the fires of Hell.

Okay, it also teaches that this is not an excommunicable offense and abortion is. Abortion = excommunication; Raping a 6 year old = no excommunication

In order to *emphasize *the wrongness of certain actions which people do not always realize, some actions call for excommunication. This is a matter of canon law, *not *part of the teaching of the Catholic Church, a law which has been set up to *remind *people that those who commit the sin of abortion have ***also ***committed a mortal sin.

The CDF is not something which the members of the Catholic Church have to ascent to? Cannon law is something other than an implementation of Catholic Teachings?

Look at you yourself. You think that the worse crime was the rape. The taking of two innocent lives does not seem as bad to you as the rapes, which were terribly heinous acts. What the [Catholic] Church is saying is not, people can see how bad raping children is, well, they’re wrong about that. What the [Catholic] Church is saying is that people can see how bad raping children is, and they need to be reminded that killing, esp of the unborn, is worse in the eyes of God.

Ummmm, without the rape the girl wouldn’t have been pregnant and there would have been no abortion. So, what the Catholic Church is saying to me is this. If you commit a horrible, heinous sin against another of God’s creatures which results in them being forced to make a decision between their physical well-being and sinning themselves – you will suffer fewer incorporeal penalties than the person you sinned against who is only acting in their own physical best interests.

Any sin that happened as a result of the rape is contingent upon the rape happening. Therefore the rape is the greater sin, as far as I’m concerned, because it carries with it not only the burdens of itself but the burdens of sins committed as a result.

The step-father should have been given AT LEAST the same treatment as the mother and doctors. By the Catholic Church taking a graver action against the mother and doctors than they did against the step-father they are demonstrating that the step-father was in a less sinful state that the mother and the doctors. That is how I see it anyway, unless of course excommunication has nothing to do with how grave the sin is?

No, because the issue of abortion is unrelated to Church teaching. Abortion is wrong, was wrong before Christ appeared on earth, was wrong before God spoke to the Jews. Abortion is wrong for everyone, at any time, at any place.

Abortion is unrelated to Church teaching? Then why is it mentioned in the CCC?

 

[Drawmack]

Every person who reads this and has been put through the horrors of what that child lived
through already in her young and innocent life can see what YOU think ought to be their
reward…DEATH.

The good Lord choose LIFE for ALL of us.

No innocent life deserves death, not in or outside of the womb!

Shame on you and all who think the way you do.

All of God’s innocent children deserve the life He wants for them, NOT a death sentence!!

When if ever, will some of you people learn that???

Your words sound exactly like the evil words that I imagine is just one of the ways that
Satan tells everyone who has ever thought of having an abortion…
“They will be better off dead”… what a bunch of lies the evil one fills hearts and minds
and souls with when they turn from His Church and His teachings.

Most of all, when they turn from He, HIMSELF, you obviously never really believed that He is present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Blessed Sacrament or no matter what
you thought about anyone else, you wouldn’t leave HIM.

Do you know what Jesus’ first words were when He started His public ministry?

“Repent-and believe in the Gospel”!

I suggest you listen to Jesus and all that He told His Church, forget what YOU think, your
own thinking is messed up.

If you don’t want to have anything to do with HIM and HIS church, fine, move on, but don’t
try to murder every little innocent life in this world because of the wrong choices you
yourselves and others have made.

Any post that choose to twist my words in this manner is not worthy of a response.

 

[Aboveallbereal]

There are two eternal verities here

1 Sin will always exist in human life.
2 Discussion of abortion will alwys generate more heat than light.

The latter partly because behind all the protestations to the contrary most pro choice apologists know that there is something worng. They don’t know how to explain it, they are cut off by choice from the fount of love and don’t have the language but they remain the image of God and thus know at heart that they are defending outrage…this leads to conflict and anger.

 

[Drawmack]

There are two eternal verities here

1 Sin will always exist in human life.
2 Discussion of abortion will alwys generate more heat than light.

The latter partly because behind all the protestations to the contrary most pro choice apologists know that there is something worng. They don’t know how to explain it, they are cut off by choice from the fount of love and don’t have the language but they remain the image of God and thus know at heart that they are defending outrage…this leads to conflict and anger.

What about pro-life apologists who are told that they are wrong because of the way they choose to apologize for pro-life by other pro-lifers?

 

[allhers]

So, you think that a child who is murdered before reaching the age of reason (i.e. a child of 6) would not go to heaven? If the child would go to heaven, then how do you know that God would rather have someone experience years, quite possibly a lifetime, of mental and emotional torment instead of sitting within the beatific vision?

What were the chances that she, or the children, would have survived until the fetuses reached a viable stage? If the step-father had simply killed the little girl when she was 6, instead of raping her for 3 years, she would be in Heaven right now partaking of the beatific vision and those other two babies would not have been killed. Like I said, She’d be better off dead.

There are various types of rape – no rape is right and all of them are reprehensible. That being said there is a difference between adult date rape and raping an innocent 6 year old child. Much like there are different types of murder based on mitigating circumstances. The magisterium clearly teaches that those who abort a fetus are excommunicated while those that rape a 6 year old child are not.

Okay, and I believe that same paragraph should be rewritten to say raping a child along with abortion.

Let me answer that with a question. Why do you keep entangling the social ramifications of an action with the theological ramifications of an action? Do corporeal punishments assuage eternal ones? The two have nothing to do with one another. It does not matter what his debt to society is, or should be, what matters is that his debt to God does not include excommunication but the mother’s does.

So, you are the one who deceides what we are going to go through in this life instead of God? Gee, somebody forgot to inform me, I guess I’ll have to go to another denomination in order to find out that kind of twisted thinking.:whacky:

(my bold)