How To Read and Understand The Bible

[PJM]

=EdOsiecki;6328232]Hi PJM, isn’t Jesus telling the disciples to forgive sins per Joh 20 and that’s how the Catholic church comes up with priests and confessions?

Jesus didn’t tell the disciples to “Absolve you from your sins” you’re making that up.

When I read 1 John 1:9 and it states, “If we confess our sin He is faithful to forgive us.” Shouldn’t that tell me that I’m 100% sure that my sins are forgiven?
Who’s sins shall or shall NOT be forgiven? Can you give me and example?

ED O.

No, Ed again its a matter of CORRECTLY understanding.

Confession to a priest as Christ commands and makes mandatory has the effect of forgiveness of sins. It remains God’s doing the forgiving, at the direction and intercecessory actions of the priest that PERMIT it to happen.

The process; not so very different than in the OT, requires action and petition on the part of the priest co-joined [can’t have one without the other] with God actualy effecting the forgiveness.

It is THROUGH and in conjunction WITH Christ, that the action of “absolving” RESULTS in the FACT of Godly Forgiveness. EACH AND EVERY TIME!

Having gone to Confession thousands of times, I’m sure what is said, how it works and what effect it has.

We have a specific role
The priest hasa specific role
And God has a co-joined specific role. Amen!

As to your second reference. It simply affirms what the Catholic Church understands, believes, and practices. If we confess [to the priest like I [Jesus] tell you in the clearest possible language in John 20:20-23.] It neither says or implies "confessing directly to God…

Don’t take my word for it. Read it to a fifth grader and ask them what it actualy means

Love and prayers Ed, God is trying to tell you something.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Hi NotWorthy. I apologize for not replying sooner. Yesterday, I traveled some distance along with other musicians to perform at a musical for the elderly at their retirement home and I got back home rather late.

Posted by NotWorthy
I had a priest explain it to me this way.

He had a young man that came into confession. "Bless me Father, for I have sinned. I just moved in with my fiance and we’ve been having sex out of wedlock

By the young man’s statement he knows that he’s been sinning by having sex out of wedlock and he came to confess it.---- That’s why ones goes to confession. ---- Am I not correct?

The priest then asked the young man, “well, have you quit having sex? Have you moved out?”

He replies, “Well, uh, no. No, I haven’t, Father]”.

“Do you plan on quitting this premarital sex”? The priest inquired.

“Gosh, no, Father!”.

Now — YOU — do some thinking here! ---- Did this type of a confession actually happen? ---- If so, why would any young man go to confession who knows beforehand that he’s going to continue in the same sin? -----There would not have been any reason for him to confess it in the first place. ----- One goes to confession to repent of committed sins. ----- Am I not correct?

“Then how can I absolve you if you plan on continuing this sin?”

The priest didn’t do any absolving (not forgiving of sins). The young man would have known that, that kind of a confession is invalid before he entered the confessional room! ----- He would be mocking the rite to repent. ----- Am I not correct?

To date! The above has to be the weakest defense of not forgiving someone’s sins that I had ever come across. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by PJM
Having gone to Confession thousands of times, I’m sure what is said, how it works and what effect it has.

Hi PJM, “Confession Thousands of Times?” ---- What do these Scriptures mean to you? "1 John3:6, "No one who lives in Him (Jesus) keeps on sinning. The v9, “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God”

As to your second reference. It simply affirms what the Catholic Church understands, believes, and practices. If we confess [to the priest like I [Jesus] tell you in the clearest possible language in John 20:20-23.] It neither says or implies "confessing directly to God…

Please note in the clearest possible language Jesus’ command was given to " Disciples" ----- It does not directly or implies to confess to a priest. Priests are not mentioned there whatsoever. ED O.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi NotWorthy. I apologize for not replying sooner. Yesterday, I traveled some distance along with other musicians to perform at a musical for the elderly at their retirement home and I got back home rather late. By the young man’s statement he knows that he’s been sinning by having sex out of wedlock and he came to confess it.---- That’s why ones goes to confession. ---- Am I not correct?Now — YOU — do some thinking here! ---- Did this type of a confession actually happen? ---- If so, why would any young man go to confession who knows beforehand that he’s going to continue in the same sin? -----There would not have been any reason for him to confess it in the first place. ----- One goes to confession to repent of committed sins. ----- Am I not correct?
The priest didn’t do any absolving (not forgiving of sins). The young man would have known that, that kind of a confession is invalid before he entered the confessional room! ----- He would be mocking the rite to repent. ----- Am I not correct?

To date! The above has to be the weakest defense of not forgiving someone’s sins that I had ever come across. ED O.

Wow, I’m impressed with your ability to determine the validity of confessions!

I’ve heard more than one priest say that is usually the only reason one is rejected at the confessional, when one refuses to admit that they will try and quit.

Did this confession actually happen? I have no reason to disbelieve the priest.

Can you think of a better reason to tell someone that their sins will not be absolved?

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi PJM, “Confession Thousands of Times?” ---- What do these Scriptures mean to you? "1 John3:6, "No one who lives in Him (Jesus) keeps on sinning. The v9, “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God”

I would ask that person to go read Paul’s words in Romans. "I do not do the things that I should do, but I do the things I know I shouldn’t do". (paraphrasing). Incidentally, I call that “Paul’s Epistle to John”, for its as if he were talking directly to me.

Please note in the clearest possible language Jesus’ command was given to " Disciples" ----- It does not directly or implies to confess to a priest. Priests are not mentioned there whatsoever. ED O.

And that is irrelevant.

The priest was a part of the atonement ritual in the Mosaic Covenant. Without a priest. No atonement.

The Catholic Church says a priest (or bishop) is necessary.

There’s nothing else to say in this matter.

 

[PJM]

EdOsiecki;Hi PJM, “Confession Thousands of Times?” ---- What do these Scriptures mean to you? "1 John3:6, "No one who lives in Him (Jesus) keeps on sinning. The v9, “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God”

YEP:blush:

I’m 5 years old. a life long Catholic and VERY aware of what constinutes a sin. WHICH by the way is a HUGE problem in these times of “its ONLY WRONG [or right] IF I SAY IT is!”

** 1 John.1 Verses 8 to 10: **“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

** 1 John.5 Verses 16 to 17**: “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.** There is sin which is mortal;** I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but **there is sin which is not mortal. **”

Please note in the clearest possible language Jesus’ command was given to " Disciples" ----- It does not directly or implies to confess to a priest. Priests are not mentioned there whatsoever. ED O.

Ed, your kidding right? I have provided you both biblical evidence and dictionary evidence of the term “deciples” being interchangable with “Apostles.” [Look at my past post on this string]. Now your trying to deny that the Apostles are Priest?

Here is an FYI dear friend,

God permits [EVEN THOUGH IT IS A SIN] anyone to believe anything they choose. Did you know that was a sin? GOD WILL JUDGE NOT JUST ON WHAT WE CHOOSE TO KNOW, NOT EVEN ON WHAT WE ACTUALLY KNOW; BUT RATHER ON WHAT HE, GOD HAS PROVIDED OPPORTUNITY TO KNOW

Sola Scriptora, Trinity, Salvation by faith alone, Pope; none are in the bible Ed. Two out of the four are also false

Love and prayers friend,
Pat

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by NotWorthy
Wow, I’m impressed with your ability to determine the validity of confessions!

Thanks for such a nice compliment! ---- I like you. ---- (but sincerely I find you to be very respectful).

I’ve heard more than one priest say that is usually the only reason one is rejected at the confessional, when one refuses to admit that they will try and quit.

I have no comment on this because I don’t know. I believe what you say.

Did this confession actually happen? I have no reason to disbelieve the priest.

I always understood that a priest should never discuss what takes place in the confessional. Here, the priest is referring to a specific case. That’s why I questioned it.

Can you think of a better reason to tell someone that their sins will not be absolved

Yes! it’s unreasonable for me to think that any Catholic would even go to confession knowing beforehand that he/she will continue in the same sin. Why bother to confess it or even go to confession at all? Not being absolved would make things worse. Guilt of the sin and now guilt of being rejected of absolution. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by NotWorthy

And that is irrelevant.

The priest was a part of the atonement ritual in the Mosaic Covenant. Without a priest. No atonement.

The Catholic Church says a priest (or bishop) is necessary.

There’s nothing else to say in this matter

I would have had much to say about it. however; I’ll respect your wish to end it. ED O…

 

[NotWorthy]

Thanks for such a nice compliment! ---- I like you. ---- (but sincerely I find you to be very respectful).

Same here, brother. I’ve grown quite fond of myself, too!!! Oh, and you, too!

I have no comment on this because I don’t know. I believe what you say.

I always understood that a priest should never discuss what takes place in the confessional. Here, the priest is referring to a specific case. That’s why I questioned it.

A priest can not divulge anything about any certain confession. I could understand a priest doing this if there’s no way to identify the confessor, i.e. while he’s 1000 miles away doing a mission or if it happened years ago at a different parish.

Yes! it’s unreasonable for me to think that any Catholic would even go to confession knowing beforehand that he/she will continue in the same sin. Why bother to confess it or even go to confession at all? Not being absolved would make things worse. Guilt of the sin and now guilt of being rejected of absolution. ED O.

Not every Catholic is properly Catechized, my brother. I’m sure your faith community doesn’t have that problem.

 

[NotWorthy]

I would have had much to say about it. however; I’ll respect your wish to end it. ED O…

I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to convey that I didn’t want to talk about it. Its just that I accept the Church’s authority on the matter. If they wished to use the Urim and Thumimm, I’d even accept that.

Given that, I feel that the Church’s reasoning in the implementation of the Sacrament of Reconciliation is quite sound.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Hi PJM, You said that you’ve gone to confession thousands of times so I asked you to comment on the following verses: ---- What do these Scriptures mean to you? "1 John3:6, "No one who lives in Him (Jesus) keeps on sinning. The v9, “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God” ----- HERE’S YOUR REPLY.

Posted by PJM YEP:blush:
I’m 5 years old. a life long Catholic and VERY aware of what constinutes a sin. WHICH by the way is a HUGE problem in these times of “its ONLY WRONG [or right] IF I SAY IT is!”

NOW! What kind of an intelligent answer is that supposed be? It appears to be more like a sermon of some kind? But rather than to give me your answer to the Scriptures that I have asked you about, instead you present below ANTI- SCRIPTURES.

1 John.1 Verses 8 to 10: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

But since this is your answer, you should have started with verse 7, "But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the BLOOD of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from ALL SIN. (did you notice “ALL SIN”.) ---- Also the “we walk in the light” are born again people. ---- HERE’S YOUR NEXT ANTI-SCRIPTURE

1 John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.** There is sin which is mortal;** I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but **there is sin which is not mortal. ** In your first example you omitted the leading verse 7 which would have completed the thought. Now in this example you omitted verse 18 which completes the thought, " We know that anyone born of God does NOT CONTINUE TO SIN; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.---- SO! Why do you go thousands of times to confession when a person born of God DOES NOT CONTINUE TO SIN is what confuses me?

Ed, your kidding right? I have provided you both biblical evidence and dictionary evidence of the term “deciples” being interchangable with “Apostles.” [Look at my past post on this string]. Now your trying to deny that the Apostles are Priest?

Why are you getting bent all out of shape. I most certainly understood what you have prior posted, what I’m getting at is, in Luke’s account of John 20’s meeting, Jesus breathed on lay people (disciples) too, so why to do affirm that only apostles/now priests can only forgive sins. Why do you then ignore the lay people (disciples) who were there too?

Here is an FYI dear friend,

God permits [EVEN THOUGH IT IS A SIN] anyone to believe anything they choose. Did you know that was a sin? GOD WILL JUDGE NOT JUST ON WHAT WE CHOOSE TO KNOW, NOT EVEN ON WHAT WE ACTUALLY KNOW; BUT RATHER ON WHAT HE, GOD HAS PROVIDED OPPORTUNITY TO KNOW

You got that right! That’s why we are having this dialog.

Sola Scriptora, Trinity, Salvation by faith alone, Pope; none are in the bible Ed. Two out of the four are also false

Would you please be so kind and tell me which two that you consider as false and why? ED O.

 

[PJM]

Hi PJM, You said that you’ve gone to confession thousands of times so I asked you to comment on the following verses: ---- What do these Scriptures mean to you? "1 John3:6, "No one who lives in Him (Jesus) keeps on sinning. The v9, “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God” ----- HERE’S YOUR REPLY.

Posted by PJM YEP RED my added comments
I’m 65 years old. a life long Catholic and VERY aware of what constinutes a sin. WHICH by the way is a HUGE problem in these times of “its ONLY WRONG [or right] IF I SAY IT is!” I’m speaking of "secular Humanism /Relativism/ New Age. This philosophy so common today holds this very position, thus so many no longer recogonize what constitutes a sin.

[QOTE]NOW! What kind of an intelligent answer is that supposed be? It appears to be more like a sermon of some kind? But rather than to give me your answer to the Scriptures that I have asked you about, instead you present below ANTI- SCRIPTURES.

1 John.1 Verses 8 to 10: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

But since this is your answer, you should have started with verse 7, "But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the BLOOD of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from ALL SIN. (did you notice “ALL SIN”.) ---- Also the “we walk in the light” are born again people. ---- HERE’S YOUR NEXT ANTI-SCRIPTURE

Thanks Ed, did you notice what follows [follows!] verse 7? Why Ed? Because Christ Blood has THE POWER TO FORGIVE ALL SINS, does not mean its an automatic event. Jesus Himself many times tells us to KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS! and “Take up your CROSS and FOLLOW ME” JESUS HIMSELF INSTITUTED THE SACRAMENT OF CONFESSION;WHY?

1 John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but **there is sin which is not mortal.

In your first example you omitted the leading verse 7 which would have completed the thought. Now in this example you omitted verse 18 which completes the thought, " We know that anyone born of God does NOT CONTINUE TO SIN; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.---- SO! Why do you go thousands of times to confession when a person born of God DOES NOT CONTINUE TO SIN is what confuses me?

From your lips to God’s ears So once a person is a Christian they never sin again?

Paul Himself tells us:Rom. 7: "22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? *Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. *

Ed, your kidding right? I have provided you both biblical evidence and dictionary evidence of the term “deciples” being interchangable with “Apostles.” [Look at my past post on this string]. Now your trying to deny that the Apostles are Priest?

Why are you getting bent all out of shape. I most certainly understood what you have prior posted, what I’m getting at is, in Luke’s account of John 20’s meeting, Jesus breathed on lay people (disciples) too, so why to do affirm that only apostles/now priests can only forgive sins. Why do you then ignore the lay people (disciples) who were there too?

NO, Ed He most certainly did not! Once again here is evidenceof “deciples MEANING APOSTLES” and the tern cn and at times DOES apply ONLY to Apostles. Luke.6 Verses 13 to 16: And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles; Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, [16] and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor." NOW WATCH: Luke.9 Verses 18 to 20: 18 "Now it happened that as he was praying alone the disciples were with him; and he asked them, “Who do the people say that I am?” And they answered, “John the Baptist; but others say, Eli’jah; and others, that one of the old prophets has risen.” And he said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answered, "The Christ of God."

Here is an FYI dear friend,

Sola Scriptora, Trinity, Salvation by faith alone, Pope; none are in the bible Ed. Two out of the four are also false

Would you please be so kind and tell me which two that you consider as false and why? ED O.

Would love to but space does not permit it. Sola Scriptura and Salvation by faith alone are explicitly taught AGAINST in the bible.

Love and prayers,
Pat/ PJM**

 

[EdOsiecki]

Hi PJM, First of all I’m glad that you made clear your age because on post 420 you said that you were 5yrs.old and a life long Catholic? ---- I thought, really at 5yrs old?

Posted by PJM
Thanks Ed, did you notice what follows [follows!] verse 7? Yes v 8. The verse that you quoted me and I told you that you should have started with verse 7. This seems like we’re going around in circles.

Why Ed? Because Christ Blood has THE POWER TO FORGIVE ALL SINS, does not mean its an automatic event.

I know that! — Here allow me to explain. ---- The other day I got angry when the gasoline pump’s indicator told me to go inside and see the attendant. When I did, she told me to try it again. When I did, again it told to go see the attendant. This time I’m getting pretty hot because I was in a great hurry. Again, she said go try it again when I did and the pump’s indicator told me the same thing. I got angry and left. Later after getting gas at another station and when I cooled off, I simply confessed the sin of getting angry to God. But something happened later that day, by which God revealed to me that in addition to the confession He now also wants me to go back and apologize to the gas attendant. You see! God is dealing with my quick temper. By making me go back to apologize, you can bet that I’ll think twice before I behave like that again. This is the Scripture that applies Phil 1:6, “And I am sure that God who began the good work within you will keep right on helping you grow in His grace until His task within you is finally finished on that day when Jesus Christ returns.” — I like confessing directly to God because He not only forgave my sin but He teaches me not to do it again. When God gets my quick temper under control, you can bet that he’ll deal with something else that He sees wrong in my life until He makes me more like Him (Jesus). This process is called sanctification. What I like about doing it God’s way, by making me go back to apologize, I not only learned a lesson not to do that again but I know that He heard my confession since He’s the one who told me to go back and apologize.

This is the personal relationship I have with God. You see! I never deal with that first gas station mentioned above. God knew that I would be in a hurry and He knew that there was something wrong with that gas pump that’s why He sent me there. I call it a"Fix".God had a 'Fix" for me. If I don’t get the “Fix” “Fix” up He’ll keep putting me through more “Fixes” until He gets me all “Fixed” up. That is more like Him.

From your lips to God’s ears So once a person is a Christian they never sin again?

Wrong! Little by little God works the sins out of us as described above.

Paul Himself tells us:Rom. 7: "22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

He’s gone through the same sanctifying process as I describe above. He said, “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord” That will deliver him. Who did Paul then confess his sins too but to God? The Catholic church didn’t exsit with any priest.

NO, Ed He most certainly did not! Once again here is evidenceof “deciples MEANING APOSTLES” and the tern cn and at times DOES apply ONLY to Apostles. Luke.6 Verses 13 to 16: And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles; Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, [16] and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor." NOW WATCH: Luke.9 Verses 18 to 20: 18

"Now it happened that as he was praying alone the disciples were with him; and he asked them, “Who do the people say that I am?” And they answered, “John the Baptist; but others say, Eli’jah; and others, that one of the old prophets has risen.” And he said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answered, "The Christ of God How many times does this have to be explained. I know that at times the twelve are called apostles and at times the twelve are called disciples. But in John20 there are apostes/disciples and lay people/disciples. But the Catholics claim from that verse that only the apostle/now priests can forgive sins. Why then can’t the lay people/disciples then forgive sins too since Jesus breathed on them all.
In plain english if you can claim by that verse that apostles/now priests can forgive sins, then I can claim that lay people/ disciples can also then forgive sins too. ED O.

 

[PJM]

=EdOsiecki; How many times does this have to be explained. I know that at times the twelve are called apostles and at times the twelve are called disciples. But in John20 there are apostes/disciples and lay people/disciples. But the Catholics claim from that verse that only the apostle/now priests can forgive sins. Why then can’t the lay people/disciples then forgive sins too since Jesus breathed on them all.
In plain english if you can claim by that verse that apostles/now priests can forgive sins, then I can claim that lay people/ disciples can also then forgive sins too. ED O.

Ed where are the logical and theolgical basis for such understanding? Why are there priest if they have no special mision and power? [OT and NT].

** Matt.10: 1** And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.

** Matt.11: 1** And when Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in their cities.

** Matt. 14:26** But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear.

** Matt. 16: 21** From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

** Matt.17: 1 **“And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli’jah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli’jah.” He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces, and were filled with awe. “

** Matt.20: 17 **And as Jesus was
going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside, and on the way he said to them,

** Mark.4: 34 **he did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.

** Mark.8: 27** And Jesus went on with his disciples, to the villages of Caesare’a Philip’pi; and on the way he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that I am?” 33 But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter, and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not on the side of God, but of men.”

** Luke 8: 22** One day he got into a boat with his disciples, and he said to them, “Let us go across to the other side of the lake.” So they set out

** Luke 9:18 **Now it happened that as he was praying alone the disciples were with him; and he asked them, “Who do the people say that I am?”

** John.2: 2 **Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples

** John.6: 3 **Jesus went up on the mountain, and there sat down with his disciples. 8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, said to him,

** John 6: 24 ** “So when the people saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Caper’na-um, seeking Jesus”

** John 11:16 **“Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

** John.12: 4 **“But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was to betray him), said,”

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23** “When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”**

Matt. 28: 16-20 **Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. [18] And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Ed is this sufficient evidence of “disciple” referring specifically to the Apostles?

 

[guanophore]

I know that! — Here allow me to explain. ---- The other day I got angry when the gasoline pump’s indicator told me to go inside and see the attendant. When I did, she told me to try it again. When I did, again it told to go see the attendant. This time I’m getting pretty hot because I was in a great hurry. Again, she said go try it again when I did and the pump’s indicator told me the same thing. I got angry and left. Later after getting gas at another station and when I cooled off, I simply confessed the sin of getting angry to God. But something happened later that day, by which God revealed to me that in addition to the confession He now also wants me to go back and apologize to the gas attendant. You see! God is dealing with my quick temper. By making me go back to apologize, you can bet that I’ll think twice before I behave like that again. This is the Scripture that applies Phil 1:6, “And I am sure that God who began the good work within you will keep right on helping you grow in His grace until His task within you is finally finished on that day when Jesus Christ returns.” — I like confessing directly to God because He not only forgave my sin but He teaches me not to do it again. When God gets my quick temper under control, you can bet that he’ll deal with something else that He sees wrong in my life until He makes me more like Him (Jesus). This process is called sanctification. What I like about doing it God’s way, by making me go back to apologize, I not only learned a lesson not to do that again but I know that He heard my confession since He’s the one who told me to go back and apologize.

This is the personal relationship I have with God. You see! I never deal with that first gas station mentioned above. God knew that I would be in a hurry and He knew that there was something wrong with that gas pump that’s why He sent me there. I call it a"Fix".God had a 'Fix" for me. If I don’t get the “Fix” “Fix” up He’ll keep putting me through more “Fixes” until He gets me all “Fixed” up. That is more like Him.

There is nothing in what you have said here that is not Catholic.

Little by little God works the sins out of us as described above.

He’s gone through the same sanctifying process as I describe above. He said, “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord” That will deliver him.

And confession is an integral part of the sanctification process.

Who did Paul then confess his sins too but to God? The Catholic church didn’t exsit with any priest.

You seem to be creating a false dichotomy, Ed. Confession through the priest is still confession directly to God. You seem to perceive the confessional as some sort of barrier, rather than a point of access. Paul did what all the Apostles, bishops, and priests have always done, “confess your sins to one another”.

How many times does this have to be explained. I know that at times the twelve are called apostles and at times the twelve are called disciples. But in John20 there are apostes/disciples and lay people/disciples. But the Catholics claim from that verse that only the apostle/now priests can forgive sins. Why then can’t the lay people/disciples then forgive sins too since Jesus breathed on them all.

Jesus gave His authority to the Apostles, and those whom they ordained, to forgive the sins of others in His name. Of course we are all to forgive sins, as we do so every time we pray the Lord’s prayer.What you seem to be suggesting is that the early church did not understand what Jesus directed, and they went off the rails immediately by understanding the priesthood as instituted by Christ.

How is it that the HS was powerful enough to guide the Church into writing, collecting,and canonizing the scriptures, but too weak to make them understand that Jesus did not intend for there to be a priesthood that was to administer sacraments?

In plain english if you can claim by that verse that apostles/now priests can  forgive sins, then I can claim that lay people/ disciples can also then forgive sins too.  ED O.

It is the type of forgiveness. We all forgive those who trespass against us. The sucessors of the Apostles also have the authority to forgive in the name of God and of the Church.

 

[kepha1]

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. (but there is nothing wrong with “privately to God” either, it’s just lacking in benefits)

James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/confession.html

Ed, there is nothing biblical about abolishing the New Testament priesthood. See:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PRIEST3.htm

Now let’s get back to the topic.

Protestants CAN interpret the Bible and get it right, even most of the time. The difference is I can be assured that my interpretation is correct as long as it is in line with the faith community that wrote it in the first place, and the Church who preserved, compiled and proclaimed the scriptures with consistent teaching down through the ages. Protestantism cannot make that claim. Individualism has undermined the unity that Jesus wants for us. You can claim that the Holy Spirit instructs you privately because you think you found a verse that supports Individualism, but your private interpretation is wrong because it hasn’t worked. I am not saying you do not have the Holy Spirit, I am saying that the Bible does not make individual bible readers with the Holy Spirit to be authorized teachers of the Word. You have to be ordained. I am not saying you have to be ordained to read the bible and and have the Holy Spirit speak to you personally, and am going by what the Bible says and what the Church says, because the Bible and the Church say the same thing, and the Bible comes from the Church with her explanation.

Which verse best refects your understanding, Ed?

1 Timothy 3:14,15 “These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth”

1 Timothy 3:14,15 “These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, where the Holy Spirit guides individuals, the pillar and ground of the truth”

1 Timothy 3:14,15 “These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the bible”

Next, we run into the problem of defining what St. Paul meant by “church” and we go in circles because according to Protestantism, God never had the power or authority to share His very own authority with sinful human beings. “He who hears you hears Me” gets “interpreted” into meaning anything except it’s literary form, or worse, is ignored all together. It always boils down to authority.

Guess what, Ed. Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, and all the Apostles were wholly and fully Catholic. (not in the denominational sense that you percieve it, but as a divine character describing the Church) The authority to teach and pass on the Gospel did not expire when John wrote the last word in Revelation. The early Christians had no “Bible” for 300 years. They relied on authorized oral preaching from those who were qualified to preach: the ordained. Not individual Bible readers. Why? Because very few could read.

My private personal individualized interptretation of the bible can be just as good as yours Ed. According to Protestantism, anybody can validate a supposition by lining it up with scripture. Does that include Catholics? How is it that you can claim that anyone with the Holy Spirit has the correct interpretation but not the Church that gave you the Bible in the first place?

You can claim the Holy Spirit tells you what the Bible means. Good for you. Is it consistent with how the early church understood it? If not, then they must be wrong, and all of Christianity was a farce for 1500 years.

 

[guanophore]

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. (but there is nothing wrong with “privately to God” either, it’s just lacking in benefits)

I sure hope it is not “lacking in benefits”. If that were true, why would it be included in the daily Mass? Why would we be encouraged to pray the Act of Contrition,and to make an examination of conscience every day?

Granted, there is an abundant benefit of grace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, but confession is good for the soul at all times.

Sacraments are like a waterfall of grace. One has to stand under the water in order to to get the full benefit.

 

[kepha1]

Exactly.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Guanophore
There is nothing in what you have said here that is not Catholic.

Hi Guanophore
you must have missed what I said and that is I confessed my sin directly to God. Catholics confess their sins to priests. God forgave my sin and told me to go an apologize.

And confession is an integral part of the sanctification process.

There’s a difference here God set me up (FIX) He’s dealing with my quick temper and patience. He’ll keep setting me up until I get rid of my quick temper and have more patience per Phil1:6. When that happens God will find another area in my life set me up (FIX) until I get rid of it too. That’s being sancticfied making me more and more like Jesus. Not just merely going to confession to confess a sin.

You seem to be creating a false dichotomy,

It’s not false and I’m not creating it. It’s been around since the reformation

Ed. Confession through the priest is still confession directly to God. You seem to perceive the confessional as some sort of barrier, rather than a point of access.

Talking to a secretary is NOT talking directly to the boss! Yet, she’s the point of access to him too. Direct means exactly what it says direct! My mouth to God’s ear.

Paul did what all the Apostles, bishops, and priests have always done, “confess your sins to one another”.

You may be making a false statement here. There’s absolutly no Scripture that confirms that in either Testaments.
The first church were all Jews who always confessed directly to God prior to getting saved. Are you trying to tell me that they now switched from God to one another?

Jesus gave His authority to the Apostles, and those whom they ordained, to forgive the sins of others in His name

.Show me the Scripture reference? I never found one.

Of course we are all to forgive sins, as we do so every time we pray the Lord’s prayer.

In the Lord’s prayer Jesus is teaching His apostles how to pray. That is, Father “forgive us our debts (sins) as we forgive others” If God can hear these prayers can’t He hear us when we then confess to him?. Here Jesus never teaches the apostles to confess their sins to one another.

What you seem to be suggesting is that the early church did not understand what Jesus directed, and they went off the rails immediately by understanding the priesthood as instituted by Christ.

I don’t understand this statement? Clarify it for me.

How is it that the HS was powerful enough to guide the Church into writing, collecting,and canonizing the scriptures, but too weak to make them understand that Jesus did not intend for there to be a priesthood that was to administer sacraments?

The Christian church exsisted for more than 300 years before this took place and they got along well with all the letters Paul and the others wrote.

It is the type of forgiveness. We all forgive those who trespass against us. The sucessors of the Apostles also have the authority to forgive in the name of God and of the Church

I have a problem with this. When you speak of “sucessors” I can’t find that in the Bible. What I do find in Mat 28:19 where Jesus tells the apostles to make disciples, that’s people like you and me. ED O.

 

[guanophore]

Hi Guanophore
you must have missed what I said and that is I confessed my sin directly to God. Catholics confess their sins to priests. God forgave my sin and told me to go an apologize.

No, I just pointed out that we do this every day, if we use a daily examination of conscience with an Act of Confession in private, or at the daily Mass with the Confiteor. “I confess…that I have sinned…etc”.

I also pointed out that confessing to a priest does not mean we are not confessing directly to God. The priest is there in the Person of Christ. It is not as though God is somehow not present!

There's a difference here God set me up (FIX) He's dealing with my quick temper and patience. He'll keep setting me up until I get rid of my quick temper and have more patience per Phil1:6. When that happens God will find another area in my life set me up (FIX)  until I get rid of it too. That's being sancticfied making me more and more like Jesus.  Not just merely going to confession to confess a sin.

I dont’ see a difference. Did you think that, since Catholics confess to a priest, that God is not working in their lives to sanctify them, and lead them to make reparation for their sins?

 It's not false and I'm not creating it.  It's been around since the reformation

Yes, it is a false dichotomy. A Catholic does not confess to a priest “instead” of to God, but to priest, who is in the Person of Christ. And no, it has not been since the Reformation. Confession has been this way since the NT times. During the Reformation, certain persons decided they did not need to seek God’s grace in the manner He set up, and substituted other ways.

Talking to a secretary is NOT talking directly to the boss!

Direct means exactly what it says direct!  My mouth to God's ear.

For some reason you have a false notion that Catholics do not also do this.

You may be making a false statement here. There’s absolutly no Scripture that confirms that in either Testaments.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we? Besides, Catholics know that all the Apostolic Teachings are not found in scripture. This is why it was so important to hold the traditions, just as they were delivered.

The first church were all Jews who always confessed directly to God prior to getting saved.

I think you need to re-read your Leviticus about the role of the priests in the confession of sins. They confessed their sins to the priest, and the priest made atonement for them.

Are you trying to tell me that they now switched from God to one another?

The animal sacrificial system was completed by the death of the Lamb of God. After He made satisfaction for sins, there was no longer any reason to go to the temple or slaughter an animal.

.Show me the Scripture reference? I never found one.

There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.

  In the Lord's prayer Jesus is teaching His apostles how to pray. That is,  Father "forgive us our debts (sins) as we forgive others" If God can hear these prayers can't He hear us when we then confess to him?.  Here Jesus never teaches the apostles to confess their sins to one another.

Are you suffering also the false notion that Catholics don’t believe that God hears our confessions?

James the Apostle wrote that the presbyters should be called, annointing and prayer, and the confession of sins. Are you honestly telling me you think that these instructions from James contradict what Jesus wanted?

 I don't understand this statement? Clarify it for me.

The church has practiced confession from the beginning. To say that this was contrary to what Jesus wanted is the same as saying that Jesus was unable to direct them away from this mistake.

 The Christian church exsisted for more than 300 years before this took place and they got along well with all the letters Paul and the others wrote.

What got them through was the Teaching of the Apostles that was preserved in Sacred Tradition. It was this teaching that enabled them to decide which 22 writings of the 400+ floating around, claiming to be inspired, belonged in the NT. No letters that were not consistent were included.

 I have a problem with this.  When you speak of "sucessors" I can't find that in the Bible.  What I do find in Mat 28:19 where Jesus tells the apostles to make disciples, that's people like you and me.   ED O.

It is probably off topic in this thread. You can search one of the apostolic succession threads and I can join you there, or you can start one. I doubt, however, given my past interaction with you, that you have anyreal interest in learning about the Apostolic Succession. If you had to recognize it as valid, or that it validly existed at some point, it might require a change of behavior and attitude on your part that I do n’t think you are prepared to make.