How to reconcile the infinite goodness of something with the finite goodness of another thing?

[fakename]

For instance, if something is infinitely good, then nothing else can be even a little good without it actually being it. Therefore, the goodness of food, sex, health, etc. is the goodness of God and infinitely pleasing. Either this, or these previous goods are infinitely bad, for if you had a list of things to choose, and the infinite good was one of the choices, you would never choose the other finite goods.

But yet, people can live both with the idea of infinite good and with the idea of finite good w/o contradiction. So how can this be?

Perhaps, the problem is equivalent to the problem between infinite being and finite being. If there is an infinite being then why are there multiple separate beings? One answer is that the infinite in being is not necessarily infinite in extent. But a second answer might be that the infinite in being is not a mere summary of all the goods that are finite.

Also, it might be infinitely good for there to be finite goods. But then, what would meaning would infinite have, if the finite could exist next to it?

Perhaps then infinite good is also not a mere summary. But what else would it be, and what is its essence?

 

[johnnyjones]

Only if you apply the title of “infinite goodness” to something. I see what you are saying though. You can’t be “a little pregnant”. I think something can be good to an extent though. WE may do some good but we are at base filthy rags before God, so it is possible.

 

[fakename]

Only if you apply the title of “infinite goodness” to something. I see what you are saying though. You can’t be “a little pregnant”. I think something can be good to an extent though. WE may do some good but we are at base filthy rags before God, so it is possible.

Well God, as I define him, is infinite good. And among Catholics I’m sure infinite good will only apply to God. So as far as Catholicism goes, how can there be both infinite and finite good?

This is a question for all the posters on this thread but the solution must ultimately be Catholic.

 

[dshix]

For instance, if something is infinitely good, then nothing else can be even a little good without it actually being it. Therefore, the goodness of food, sex, health, etc. is the goodness of God and infinitely pleasing. Either this, or these previous goods are infinitely bad, for if you had a list of things to choose, and the infinite good was one of the choices, you would never choose the other finite goods.

But yet, people can live both with the idea of infinite good and with the idea of finite good w/o contradiction. So how can this be?

Perhaps, the problem is equivalent to the problem between infinite being and finite being. If there is an infinite being then why are there multiple separate beings? One answer is that the infinite in being is not necessarily infinite in extent. But a second answer might be that the infinite in being is not a mere summary of all the goods that are finite.

Also, it might be infinitely good for there to be finite goods. But then, what would meaning would infinite have, if the finite could exist next to it?

Perhaps then infinite good is also not a mere summary. But what else would it be, and what is its essence?

I agree with your logic. However, the reason there is confusion is because one premise is false.

The part I bolded in your post is the key. I agree that something that is infinitely good cannot also be finitely good.

However, that assumes that we have infinite goods. We do not. Sex, food, sleep, etc are not infinitely good, God is infinitely good, and has an infinite degree of every virtue. We have a finite degree of each virtue. It is not the virtues themselves that are infinite in God, but rather God who has an infinite complement of each virtue.

Therefore it is possible for God to be infinitely loving, yet for us to be only finitely loving.

 

[cap76]

God, the infinite good, is the source of all good including finite good.
James 1.17, “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights.”

The provision of the finite from the Infinite good gives us finite creatures a grasp on the infinite. In this way, the finite is intended to move us toward the infinite.
Romans 2.4, “Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?”

To that end, many finite things are a picture of the infinite.
For instance, marriage is a finite good, yet understanding marriage as a picture of infinite good we can then utilize it to its infinite end.
Ephesians 5.22-32, “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord…This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.”

The key to bring all finite (including evil) into the realm of infinite good is the exercise of faith in the revelation of infinite goodness.
Genesis 50.20, “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.”
Job 2.10, “Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”

 

[fakename]

I agree with your logic. However, the reason there is confusion is because one premise is false.

The part I bolded in your post is the key. I agree that something that is infinitely good cannot also be finitely good.

However, that assumes that we have infinite goods. We do not. Sex, food, sleep, etc are not infinitely good, God is infinitely good, and has an infinite degree of every virtue. We have a finite degree of each virtue. It is not the virtues themselves that are infinite in God, but rather God who has an infinite complement of each virtue.

Therefore it is possible for God to be infinitely loving, yet for us to be only finitely loving.

We’re getting closer, but not by much. This is because I disagree with your solution.

God is infinitely good and so, he does have infinite virtues -not just an infinite complement of virtues (which is a confusing addendum anyways, since an infinite complement of virtues would still ultimately be an infinite virtue. Either that , or virtue is a category that somehow exists above He Who Is Above All Categories, which is absurd. Therefore you cannot mean that even if God had an infinite degree of virtue, that this does not at the same time make virtue itself infinite. For then the implication would be that some predicate “virtue” only partly applied to God, and then God would no longer be simple, but composite.).

Plus the real problem of the existence of the infinite good also rests in desirability. IF there is an infinite good, then it must be infinitely desirable such that no other thing is desirable. There is such a good and yet we do not, and in some way, must not desire it as it ought to be desired. Why?

 

[fakename]

God, the infinite good, is the source of all good including finite good.
James 1.17, “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights.”

The provision of the finite from the Infinite good gives us finite creatures a grasp on the infinite. In this way, the finite is intended to move us toward the infinite.
Romans 2.4, “Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?”

To that end, many finite things are a picture of the infinite.
For instance, marriage is a finite good, yet understanding marriage as a picture of infinite good we can then utilize it to its infinite end.
Ephesians 5.22-32, “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord…This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.”

The key to bring all finite (including evil) into the realm of infinite good is the exercise of faith in the revelation of infinite goodness.
Genesis 50.20, “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.”
Job 2.10, “Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”

This however, introduces the controversial assumption that the finite exists in the infinite. This seems impossible since the infinite is without beginning or end, and as such every “part” of infinity has no beginning or end, and therefore there cannot be finite w/in the infinite. Therefore, unless we all be gods and God is us, then I think this solution needs more defense.

 

[dshix]

We’re getting closer, but not by much. This is because I disagree with your solution.

God is infinitely good and so, he does have infinite virtues -not just an infinite complement of virtues (which is a confusing addendum anyways, since an infinite complement of virtues would still ultimately be an infinite virtue. Either that , or virtue is a category that somehow exists above He Who Is Above All Categories, which is absurd. Therefore you cannot mean that even if God had an infinite degree of virtue, that this does not at the same time make virtue itself infinite. For then the implication would be that some predicate “virtue” only partly applied to God, and then God would no longer be simple, but composite.).

Plus the real problem of the existence of the infinite good also rests in desirability. IF there is an infinite good, then it must be infinitely desirable such that no other thing is desirable. There is such a good and yet we do not, and in some way, must not desire it as it ought to be desired. Why?

I don’t see where the problem is. We have agreed that God is infinitely good (has infinite virtues). However, this does not mean that the virtues themselves, away from God, are infinite. Virtues are attributes of God.

Here on earth we only see a small part of God’s virtues, therefore we do not have infinite virtue.

 

[fakename]

I don’t see where the problem is. We have agreed that God is infinitely good (has infinite virtues). However, this does not mean that the virtues themselves, away from God, are infinite. Virtues are attributes of God.

Here on earth we only see a small part of God’s virtues, therefore we do not have infinite virtue.

That’s the disagreement -God doesn’t have attributes. Rather the highest virtue is included in God in the highest way, and therefore God is virtue w/o the metaphysical imperfections of virtue (just as he is not only good but The Good).

Clearly though you are correct in perhaps assigning different meanings to the word “virtue”. But if human virtue and divine virtue are different it would be difficult to see how, plus the problem of desire and will still remains.

 

[dshix]

That’s the disagreement -God doesn’t have attributes. Rather the highest virtue is included in God in the highest way, and therefore God is virtue w/o the metaphysical imperfections of virtue (just as he is not only good but The Good).

Clearly though you are correct in perhaps assigning different meanings to the word “virtue”. But if human virtue and divine virtue are different it would be difficult to see how, plus the problem of desire and will still remains.

There is where we disagree then. Why shouldn’t God have attributes? Or, to phrase it differently, why should God have a personality?

Every person has certain attributes which define who that person is. There is no such thing as a person or entity with zero attributes; God has not created anyone like that, nor is He like that himself.

If such a person existed, they would be infinitely boring and brainless. They would have no thoughts, ideas, instincts, or actions of their own; in fact, the concept is so out of man’s experience I don’t even know what such a person would be.

To say God has no attributes would be to say that He is without purpose, without meaning. We know this to be false through all of revelation, the world around us, and everything else we know about anything.

I suppose a case could be made that God IS the virtues. We know that He has said that He is love; I wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t all the other virtues as well. However, that doesn’t mean that they aren’t attributes of God.

If you still disagree, (which is understandable) cite some source which supports your claim that God does not have attributes.

 

[fakename]

There is where we disagree then. Why shouldn’t God have attributes? Or, to phrase it differently, why should God have a personality?

Every person has certain attributes which define who that person is. There is no such thing as a person or entity with zero attributes; God has not created anyone like that, nor is He like that himself.

If such a person existed, they would be infinitely boring and brainless. They would have no thoughts, ideas, instincts, or actions of their own; in fact, the concept is so out of man’s experience I don’t even know what such a person would be.

To say God has no attributes would be to say that He is without purpose, without meaning. We know this to be false through all of revelation, the world around us, and everything else we know about anything.

I suppose a case could be made that God IS the virtues. We know that He has said that He is love; I wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t all the other virtues as well. However, that doesn’t mean that they aren’t attributes of God.

If you still disagree, (which is understandable) cite some source which supports your claim that God does not have attributes.

newadvent.org/summa/1003.htm#article7

It’s clear that God has no attributes except accidentally, insofar as we cannot grammatically describe him w/o using attributes.

The more something is, the more it is singular and unique (One) and the more unique it is, the less it can be described or explained. For explanation is analysis and uniqueness is so simple that it defies any analysis. Hence in God’s super-personality lies the fact of his mysteriousness.

I have discovered a possible solution to my problem. It may be that the infinite good and the vision of God is not our natural end, but belongs exclusively to God. Contemplation of the highest truth is our natural end. But we could do this without supernatural aid since a knowledge of God is possible through reason and it can be contemplated happily. Note that this is also a finite end. However, the supernatural end raises us to closer sight of God, but even then this vision is only a finite good, for we will never know God like he knows himself. Therefore, our good will always consist of the finite good and we can never and must never believe we can attain to the absolute best possible good.

Any thoughts?

 

[dshix]

newadvent.org/summa/1003.htm#article7

It’s clear that God has no attributes except accidentally, insofar as we cannot grammatically describe him w/o using attributes.

The more something is, the more it is singular and unique (One) and the more unique it is, the less it can be described or explained. For explanation is analysis and uniqueness is so simple that it defies any analysis. Hence in God’s super-personality lies the fact of his mysteriousness.

I have discovered a possible solution to my problem. It may be that the infinite good and the vision of God is not our natural end, but belongs exclusively to God. Contemplation of the highest truth is our natural end. But we could do this without supernatural aid since a knowledge of God is possible through reason and it can be contemplated happily. Note that this is also a finite end. However, the supernatural end raises us to closer sight of God, but even then this vision is only a finite good, for we will never know God like he knows himself. Therefore, our good will always consist of the finite good and we can never and must never believe we can attain to the absolute best possible good.

Any thoughts?

What do you mean, “God only has attributes accidentally?”

 

[cap76]

This however, introduces the controversial assumption that the finite exists in the infinite.

Not by existence but experience. The infinite is rendered finite by subjective experience. By grand condescention, the transcendant God communicates his infinite being to his finite creatures. But our experience of the infinite, is not merely hindered by finite comprehension, but we go so far as to exchange the infinite for the finite because of our fallen nature suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.
Romans 1.18-23, “the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.”

Therefore, the goodness of food, sex, health, etc. is the goodness of God and infinitely pleasing. Either this, or these previous goods are infinitely bad, for if you had a list of things to choose, and the infinite good was one of the choices, you would never choose the other finite goods.

Neither of these propositions are true. The creation itself is a finite entity and was observed as being ‘good’ by it’s infinite Creator.
Genesis 1.31, " And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good."

Yet, Adam and Eve, when given a choice between obeying or disobeying the infinitely good Creator, they chose to listen to the finite creature. This is the normal pattern of humankind.
Psalm 14.1-3, “The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.”

Though we will never fully experience the nature and value of infinite good, God, in the Gospel of Jesus brings us to an ever increasing appreciation of it.
2 Peter 1, “[God’s] divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.
For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

 

[fakename]

What do you mean, “God only has attributes accidentally?”

I mean God has attributes “only extrinsically; in this case only in our minds”.

Btw, I double checked and my solution is pretty wrong. But nonetheless, I think I’m approaching an answer.