How to refute "eternal security" or "OSAS"

[bmonk]

There are problems with the idea of “Once Saved, Always Saved”–actually, problems with both phrases.

“Once Saved”: we cannot know we are saved until God tells us so–at the Last Judgment, when we arrive in heaven. Accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior is one important step in the process, but it is not definitive. Matthew 7:22 speaks of many who will not only take Jesus as Lord and Savior, but who prophesy and cast out demons and do wonders in Jesus’ name–but will not be saved.

Furthermore, it is worthy of note that, in the Book of Acts, nobody who accepts Jesus as Lord and comes to faith then fails to take the next step of Baptism and joining the Church. They don’t even question it–it is simply the logical thing to do.

“Always Saved”: Phil 2:12-17 speaks of working out your salvation in fear and trembling–not as something to be assumed, but as something to be worked on, by cooperating with God’s Spirit (2:13–“God in you”) so that you come to desire and to do as God wills. 1 Cor 4:3-5 speaks of Paul not judging himself, because it is God who judges. “Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.” We do not know the full story until the Lord comes–at the end of time–and so are not able to judge that we are saved until then. In that case, we cannot possibly be “always saved” until then.

 

[Taestron]

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Note that Satan is actually an example of this.

Thus, it is evidently possible for those who once really knew God to fall away.

While I agree with this position, I would caution using this verse as evidence. Holders of OSAS will just interpret this verse in the following way. It is clear that there are those who claimed to have faith who went on to lose only to be restored later on in life. Therefore, those individuals could not have had faith in the first place. This passage then becomes the means by which God keeps the elect from apostatizing. In fact, I think there are far more verses that give stronger OSAS views than this Hebrews passage. (Romans 8:29-30; John 10:25-30) People believe OSAS because it seems to them biblical and the logical thing to believe.

 

[pablope]

Hey everyone. I am debating with a Protestant Christian on Facebook who believes in “once saved always saved”. As a Protestant, she believes in sola scriptura as well so I am trying to use only the Bible to refute this false doctrine. So anyway, I was wondering if I could get some advice on how to convince her that this doctrine is false?

Heb 10:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

Pay special attention to v36…especially the last phase…“you will receive…”

Rom 11:

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[houseofsaul]

There are problems with the idea of “Once Saved, Always Saved”–actually, problems with both phrases.

“Once Saved”: we cannot know we are saved until God tells us so–at the Last Judgment, when we arrive in heaven. Accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior is one important step in the process, but it is not definitive. Matthew 7:22 speaks of many who will not only take Jesus as Lord and Savior, but who prophesy and cast out demons and do wonders in Jesus’ name–but will not be saved.

Furthermore, it is worthy of note that, in the Book of Acts, nobody who accepts Jesus as Lord and comes to faith then fails to take the next step of Baptism and joining the Church. They don’t even question it–it is simply the logical thing to do.

“Always Saved”: Phil 2:12-17 speaks of working out your salvation in fear and trembling–not as something to be assumed, but as something to be worked on, by cooperating with God’s Spirit (2:13–“God in you”) so that you come to desire and to do as God wills. 1 Cor 4:3-5 speaks of Paul not judging himself, because it is God who judges. “Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.” We do not know the full story until the Lord comes–at the end of time–and so are not able to judge that we are saved until then. In that case, we cannot possibly be “always saved” until then.

It is important to understand that you can know that you are saved before the Judgment. If you cannot know certainty of your salvation, then you are can only hope that you lived a good enough Life for God to let you into Heaven.

I know I was saved, I know I am saved. I know when I sin and I repent. If I repent with a contrite heart, then I know God will forgive me.

Sinning doesn’t make you lost, continuing in sin will.

 

[ahs]

Just to throw this in here…I keep an “Apologetics Concordnace” card in my desk at work and at home. It comes in handy OFTEN.

aquinasandmore.com/catholic-gifts/apologetics-concordance/sku/1617

 

[Philthy]

It is important to understand that you can know that you are saved before the Judgment.

Oh, of course, but that is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is whether you can know you will go to Heaven when you die. You do not know that unless God reveals it to you.

If you cannot know certainty of your salvation, then you are can only hope that you lived a good enough Life for God to let you into Heaven.

The certainty of “salvation” and the certainty that you will be “let…into Heaven” are 2 different things. Not everyone who is “saved” during their earthly life goes to “Heaven”.

I know I was saved, I know I am saved.

But you do not know the future and you do not know that you “will be” saved at the moment of death. That requires persevering in faith, hope and love and while you can be confident in your ability - by grace alone - to do that, you do not know now that you will.

I know when I sin and I repent. If I repent with a contrite heart, then I know God will forgive me.

If you do, then he will forgive you. If you don’t then He might not. You don’t actually know whether you will persevere. Ask Ted Haggerty - 10 years ago he would have said all the same things you are saying; but now he has clearly fallen off the path of doing God’s will. Will he ultimately go to Heaven? It is clear that the answer is that we don’t know and he never did despite claiming so.

Sinning doesn’t make you lost, continuing in sin will.

Such equivocations beg the question of how many times is too much? You had better get used to the fact that that is God’s call, not yours. If you repent and confess, all is well. If you start believing that a single sin - of grave matter, freely chosen, and knowingly in violation of God’s will - won’t land you in Hell, then you are far more likely to jeopardize your salvation.

good luck in RCIA!

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Hey everyone. I am debating with a Protestant Christian on Facebook who believes in “once saved always saved”. As a Protestant, she believes in sola scriptura as well so I am trying to use only the Bible to refute this false doctrine. So anyway, I was wondering if I could get some advice on how to convince her that this doctrine is false?

Ask her if she has the ability to reject the truth even if she knows the truth. When she says yes then ask her; who is the truth? When she says Christ (because He is the Way the Truth and the Life) then ask her how do we reject Christ? If she says by sin then ask; how are we still saved if we chose to sin while knowing the Truth, thus rejecting Christ who is the source of our salvation?

[bibledrb]Matthew 7:21[/bibledrb]

 

[William_C]

Hey everyone. I am debating with a Protestant Christian on Facebook who believes in “once saved always saved”. As a Protestant, she believes in sola scriptura as well so I am trying to use only the Bible to refute this false doctrine. So anyway, I was wondering if I could get some advice on how to convince her that this doctrine is false?

You can’t use Scripture because Scripture supports the doctrine.

 

[bmonk]

Originally Posted by Holly3278: “Hey everyone. I am debating with a Protestant Christian on Facebook who believes in “once saved always saved”. As a Protestant, she believes in sola scriptura as well so I am trying to use only the Bible to refute this false doctrine. So anyway, I was wondering if I could get some advice on how to convince her that this doctrine is false?”

You can’t use Scripture because Scripture supports the doctrine.

Sadly, that is not true. Even Saint Paul, who (if anyone) should have known he was saved after being stopped on the way to Damascus and converted to supporting that which he once persecuted, even Paul still was “” many years later. (Phil 2:12). Similarly, in 1 Cor 4:1-5, Paul says that he is not aware of anything against him, but that he is not thereby acquitted (yet), because it is God’s judgment that counts.
“Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.” The time of judgment is not yet–that will happen at our death, or at the “Last Judgment.” Until then, however much we feel sure of our own salvation, we cannot really be sure, because we do not know the mind of God in our particular case.

 

[William_C]

Sadly, that is not true. Even Saint Paul, who (if anyone) should have known he was saved after being stopped on the way to Damascus and converted to supporting that which he once persecuted, even Paul still was “” many years later. (Phil 2:12). Similarly, in 1 Cor 4:1-5, Paul says that he is not aware of anything against him, but that he is not thereby acquitted (yet), because it is God’s judgment that counts.
“Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.” The time of judgment is not yet–that will happen at our death, or at the “Last Judgment.” Until then, however much we feel sure of our own salvation, we cannot really be sure, because we do not know the mind of God in our particular case.

Paul says the following concerning the salvation of himself, and other believers:

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform [c]the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself. Php 3:20.

Is Paul misunderstanding what he’s said, or are you?

Notice Paul adds no caveat, such as: our citizenship is in heaven, unless we lose our salvation…

Salvation cannot be lost. Scripture is clear on that.

 

[Philthy]

You can’t use Scripture because Scripture supports the doctrine.

Hi William and welcome to CAF! :tiphat:

No, Scripture does not support OSAS. There is not a single verse that makes the claim that once we are saved we are guaranteed to go to Heaven no matter what comes of our lives. Furthermore, there are MANY places in Scripture - addressed to “saved Christians” - that specifically speak of the perils that we will face in this life ( sin, apathy, suffering and despair) which will challenge our remaining faithful disciples and risk, by rejecting our conscience, making a shipwreck of our faith (cf 1Tim). Such language is entirely inconsistent with the idea that no matter what, we are guaranteed to go to Heaven. But some - and you appear to be among them - are either unfamiliar with much of Scripture, trust another who is teaching them or are not completely honest with themselves about all that Scripture says on the topic. I’d be happy to review any section of Scripture that you think definitively teaches that once we are saved during our mortal lives that that event guarantees that we go to Heaven.

May the Lord bless you and keep you!

 

[William_C]

Hi William and welcome to CAF!

:tiphat:

No, Scripture does not support OSAS. There is not a single verse that makes the claim that once we are saved we are guaranteed to go to Heaven no matter what comes of our lives.Thanks, and what you say is not so, in fact, there is one verse which seals that truth, and is stated by the Lord Himself when He asserts that it is He who gives eternal life to His people, and they shall never perish (Jn 10:28).

A surer guarantee of salvation is nowhere to be found, and cannot be refuted.

Philthy:

Furthermore, there are MANY places in Scripture - addressed to “saved Christians” - that specifically speak of the perils that we will face in this life ( sin, apathy, suffering and despair) which will challenge our remaining faithful disciples and risk, by rejecting our conscience, making a shipwreck of our faith (cf 1Tim). Such language is entirely inconsistent with the idea that no matter what, we are guaranteed to go to Heaven.

There is no passage in scripture in which it is said that one has lost his salvation. Not one.

 

[Philthy]

Paul says the following concerning the salvation of himself, and other believers:For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform [c]the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself. Php 3:20.
Is Paul misunderstanding what he’s said, or are you?
Notice Paul adds no caveat, such as: our citizenship is in heaven, **unless we lose our salvation…**Salvation cannot be lost. Scripture is clear on that.

Uhhh, sorry but still no! I don’t notice* anything* saying we’re going to Heaven no matter what we do. He says our citizenship “is” in Heaven - but does he mean that it is a guaranteed citizenship that we will actually possess or that that is God’s *intended *citizenship for us and that it awaits us in Heaven? It is not at all clear. But since you introduced Philippians 3, let’s take a look at what else it says and see if we can add some context to figure it out. Let’s see if what you claim to see in that verse makes sense with some of the other things he says in the very same letter. Lets start with the context. Philippians Chapter 3:

Finally, my brothers, rejoice* in the Lord. Writing the same things to you is no burden for me but is a safeguard for you.

Please note that Paul writes this section to “safeguard” them. Why? What would they need safeguarding from? Something that relates to their salvation or not? It makes no sense to write them a safeguard letter IF they are already safe. He continues…

Beware of the dogs! Beware of the evil workers! Beware of the mutilation!

He’s writing to them as a safeguard regarding “dogs, evil workers and mutilation”. But what is he talking about? Salvation or not? You have already claimed that the “citizenship” comments a little later pertain to salvation, so let’s proceed with that view in mind.

For we are the circumcision,* we who worship through the Spirit of God, who boast in Christ Jesus and do not put our confidence in flesh,c 4although I myself have grounds for confidence even in the flesh

Ahhh, it’s making more sense now: confidence in “the flesh” is the OT circumcision that was the distinguishing feature and entry point. He is talking about people (dogs and evil workers" promoting circumcision for Christians. But Paul as part of his “safeguard” to them that Christian circumcision is through the Spirit, through Christ and that we do NOT put our confidence of a right relationship with God in physical circumcision (“the flesh”). He then adds that if he wished, he could claim confidence in the flesh because of his own circumcision and rigorous adherence to the Jewish law, but that his confidence is not in those things at all…

whatever gains I had, these I have come to consider a loss* because of Christ.
I have accepted the loss of all things and I consider them so much rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having any righteousness of my own based on the law but that which comes through faith in Christ,h the righteousness from God, depending on faith to know him and the power of his resurrection and [the] sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death,**if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

**This last bolded section should have given you pause for thought on your “Scripture is clear” comment. Why would Paul question whether he will attain the resurrection from the dead? All those who go to Heaven are raised from the dead. But Paul seems to simply acknowledge that it is God’s job to make such judgments and not his own. He recognizes that it is possible for him to not be resurrected. Is that consistent with OSAS? No it isn’t. Keep reading…

It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity,* but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ…

He “hopes” to take possession of the resurrection while he “indeed” has been taken possession of by Christ. Conclusion? Being taken possession of by Christ **provides hope but no guarantee **of being raised from the dead.

I continue my* pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling*, in Christ Jesus.

Again, even though Paul has “indeed” been “taken possession of by Christ” he is still “in pursuit” of “the prize of God’s upward calling”. What prize is God’s “upward calling” exactly? It is Heaven, where our citizenship awaits us, and guess what? Paul continues his pursuit in “hope” of it, not “in possession” of it…Such language is not consistent with OSAS.
This is a very cursory analysis of this letter simply because you attempted to claim that it “clearly” demonstrates OSAS. It is clear to me that it does not. His letters to the Ephesians, Galatians and 1st Corinthians are even more persuasive in refuting OSAS. If you find the above equivocal then we should review them as well.

 

[William_C]

Uhhh, sorry but still no! I don’t notice* anything* saying we’re going to Heaven no matter what we do. He says our citizenship “is” in Heaven - but does he mean that it is a guaranteed citizenship that we will actually possess or that that is God’s *intended *citizenship for us and that it awaits us in Heaven? It is not at all clear. But since you introduced Philippians 3, let’s take a look at what else it says and see if we can add some context to figure it out. Let’s see if what you claim to see in that verse makes sense with some of the other things he says in the very same letter. Lets start with the context. Philippians Chapter 3:

Finally, my brothers, rejoice* in the Lord. Writing the same things to you is no burden for me but is a safeguard for you.

Please note that Paul writes this section to “safeguard” them. Why? What would they need safeguarding from? Something that relates to their salvation or not? It makes no sense to write them a safeguard letter IF they are already safe. He continues…

Beware of the dogs! Beware of the evil workers! Beware of the mutilation!

He’s writing to them as a safeguard regarding “dogs, evil workers and mutilation”. But what is he talking about? Salvation or not? You have already claimed that the “citizenship” comments a little later pertain to salvation, so let’s proceed with that view in mind.

For we are the circumcision,* we who worship through the Spirit of God, who boast in Christ Jesus and do not put our confidence in flesh,c 4although I myself have grounds for confidence even in the flesh

Ahhh, it’s making more sense now: confidence in “the flesh” is the OT circumcision that was the distinguishing feature and entry point. He is talking about people (dogs and evil workers" promoting circumcision for Christians. But Paul as part of his “safeguard” to them that Christian circumcision is through the Spirit, through Christ and that we do NOT put our confidence of a right relationship with God in physical circumcision (“the flesh”). He then adds that if he wished, he could claim confidence in the flesh because of his own circumcision and rigorous adherence to the Jewish law, but that his confidence is not in those things at all…

whatever gains I had, these I have come to consider a loss* because of Christ.
I have accepted the loss of all things and I consider them so much rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having any righteousness of my own based on the law but that which comes through faith in Christ,h the righteousness from God, depending on faith to know him and the power of his resurrection and [the] sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death,**if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

**This last bolded section should have given you pause for thought on your “Scripture is clear” comment. Why would Paul question whether he will attain the resurrection from the dead? All those who go to Heaven are raised from the dead. But Paul seems to simply acknowledge that it is God’s job to make such judgments and not his own. He recognizes that it is possible for him to not be resurrected. Is that consistent with OSAS? No it isn’t. Keep reading…

It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity,* but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ…

He “hopes” to take possession of the resurrection while he “indeed” has been taken possession of by Christ. Conclusion? Being taken possession of by Christ **provides hope but no guarantee **of being raised from the dead.

I continue my* pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling*, in Christ Jesus.

Again, even though Paul has “indeed” been “taken possession of by Christ” he is still “in pursuit” of “the prize of God’s upward calling”. What prize is God’s “upward calling” exactly? It is Heaven, where our citizenship awaits us, and guess what? Paul continues his pursuit in “hope” of it, not “in possession” of it…Such language is not consistent with OSAS.
This is a very cursory analysis of this letter simply because you attempted to claim that it “clearly” demonstrates OSAS. It is clear to me that it does not. His letters to the Ephesians, Galatians and 1st Corinthians are even more persuasive in refuting OSAS. If you find the above equivocal then we should review them as well.

“They shall never perish…” (Jn 10:28).

 

[Philthy]

“They shall never perish…” (Jn 10:28).

Hi William!

I have to say I’m disappointed but not at all surprised by your response - or lack of it depending upon one’s standards of apologetic dialogue. Rather than address the legitimate points I raised and which undermined your interpretation of a single verse of Philippians, you ignore all of them and run off to another verse as if that somehow justifies your interpretation of Philippians. I have to say that it makes it seem as if you actually can’t refute any of what I said - that you were mistaken in your interpretation of Philippians - and that your best attempt at clinging to your notion that OSAS is “clear” in Scripture is to throw out another verse. The primary problem with such an approach is that now every verse you throw out becomes suspect because it has been offered by you and you have proven yourself - through your silence - as being unreliable in your interpretations. It’d be much better if you actually defended your original position and gave us reason to see why my comments regarding Philippians, which clearly call into question the doctrine of OSAS, are mistaken.
I will address John 10:28 shortly.

Blessings!

 

[William_C]

Hi William!

I have to say I’m disappointed but not at all surprised by your response - or lack of it depending upon one’s standards of apologetic dialogue. Rather than address the legitimate points I raised and which undermined your interpretation of a single verse of Philippians, you ignore all of them and run off to another verse as if that somehow justifies your interpretation of Philippians. I have to say that it makes it seem as if you actually can’t refute any of what I said - that you were mistaken in your interpretation of Philippians - and that your best attempt at clinging to your notion that OSAS is “clear” in Scripture is to throw out another verse. The primary problem with such an approach is that now every verse you throw out becomes suspect because it has been offered by you and you have proven yourself - through your silence - as being unreliable in your interpretations. It’d be much better if you actually defended your original position and gave us reason to see why my comments regarding Philippians, which clearly call into question the doctrine of OSAS, are mistaken.
I will address John 10:28 shortly.

Blessings!

Philthy, in light of what Jesus says in John 10:28 regarding the impossibility of the perishing of those to whom He’s given eternal life, it is you who is not understanding the verses you’ve cited. Jesus says those given to Him by the Father will never perish; therefore, salvation cannot be lost (cf Jn 6:39). That’s good news.

 

[Philthy]

Philthy, in light of what Jesus says in John 10:28 regarding the impossibility of the perishing of those to whom He’s given eternal life, it is you who is not understanding the verses you’ve cited. Jesus says those given to Him by the Father will never perish; therefore, salvation cannot be lost (cf Jn 6:39). That’s good news.

Hi William -
Again, thank you for responding. I put a fair amount of time into my comments - especially my first post to you - and I have to say I remain disappointed- though not at all surprised - that you didn’t actually address a single one. Not a single refutation of or comment on *any *of what I said? Really? Is this your usual means of discussing with those who disagree with you? You expect others to simply believe your interpretation of that Philippians verse without defending or justifying it within the context of the entire letter and the rest of Scripture? I’m guessing you either didn’t read my entire response - somewhat inconsiderate to me and - worse - inconsistent with a search for the truth. I’ll have to assume that your only response - or at least your best one - is what you have done: to run from the Philippians verse to a single verse of the Gospel of John. To be perfectly honest, I’m not at all surprised. Cherry picking (ie pulling one or two verses out of context) to establish or defend a personally held belief is very common among those who adhere to Sola Scriptura and especially those who profess OSAS.I encourage you to be more rigorous in defence of the faith. Be prepared to defend your beliefs - even in the end if we cannot agree you will prepared to better witness to others.
With respect to the verse above from John’s Gospel where does it say that all those who are saved at one point during their earthly lives will go to Heaven? I don’t see it. I don’t see Jesus claiming - as you apparently do - that “My sheep” is equivalent to everyone who ever enters his heard during their earthly life. I also don’t see that it was meant to apply to those who came after Jesus finished his earthly ministry (when people were able to “hear (his) voice”. ) Who are the “My Sheep” exactly?? Is it the apostles? Is it those who were able to “hear his voice” during his earthly life? Whatever your answer is - how do you know?? The answer is that you don’t actually know. And furthermore you can’t explain to us why there are all the other verses in Scripture that clearly discuss the possibility of losing one’s salvation by not persevering until the end. You seem perfectly content, however, to simply ignore everything that goes contrary to your preconceived notion of OSAS. The truth is that there is far more unambiguous Scripture that explicitly deals with the possibility of losing salvation.
I think you have interpreted this verse through your preconcieved theology rather than deriving your theology from it. You first believed in OSAS - probably because someone taught it to you - and then you “see” it in these verses and ignore everything else (including what others patiently point out to you from the rest of Scripture) that disagrees with it. You seem perfectly content to simply ignore everything that goes contrary to your preconceived notion of OSAS. The truth is that there is far more unambiguous Scripture that explicitly deals with the possibility of losing salvation. That is not handling the word of God properly.
To add credibility to what I’m saying I predict you will not actually address any of my comments on Philippians nor will you provide a reason for us to believe why your interpretation of “My sheep” is the one intended by Christ. But I remain hopeful that I could be mistaken. We shall see, because actions speak louder than words.

Blessings…

 

[Philthy]

I’m not quite done! Lastly I’ll provide one verse (there are MANY) that clearly refutes the notion of OSAS in clear, unambiguous terms (unlike “my sheep”). So as to be consistent with our initial conversation, I’ll pick a verse that deals with the very same issues that were being faced by the Philippians(judaizers insisting that circumcision was part of Christianity) and which is also written by Paul, but to the Galatians. The verse is Galatians 5:4 highlighted below. Here’s the opening verses of Galatians Ch 5 for context:

For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery. It is I, Paul, who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you.Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcisedc that he is bound to observe the entire law.You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

The Galatians were experiencing the very same issues as the Philippians: Jewish converts trying to add the OT covenant of circumcision (and other stuff) to the NT covenant of grace.

For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery.

Note that Paul uses US to describe his audience: those who have been “set…free” by Christ. They are “saved” Christians. People you would describe as those included in Christ’s “my sheep”. Notice also that Paul says do not submit AGAIN to the yoke of slavery. Why? They were former Jews who had submitted to it and had been freed of it by Christ and Paul is warning them not to submit to it again. And why does he warn them? Read on…

“… if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you.”

Very interesting. IF you choose to enter into the old covenant, THEN Christ will be of no benefit to you. Hmmm that’s interesting because Paul has already said the Christ had “set them free” - most definitely a benefit! But now Paul says that choosing circumcision (over Grace) means that Christ “will be” - future tense - “of no benefit to you.” No vague terms, no metaphors requiring interpretation. If you choose to be circumcised you lose the benefits of Christ - his covenant of grace based upon the Cross. You cannot enter Heaven without that benefit William.

…I declare to every man who has himself circumcisedthat he is bound to observe the entire law.You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace**.**

Let’s start with the last 5 words: “you have fallen from grace”. OSAS holds that we cannot fall from grace, does it not? But there it is in plain english. One cannot “fall from” something they have not already taken part in. Paul’s comment implies that they are - or were - in a state of grace and that by trying to be justified by the law, they have “separated themselves from Christ” and have “fallen from grace”. You cannot go to Heaven if you are not in a state of grace, and have separated yourself from Christ because Christ will be no benefit to you. Lastly notice the underlined terms here…

For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Our righteous is not complete, nor is it guaranteed but we await the “hope” of it should we be judged worthy at the completion of our lives. And what are we to be doing to inherit the citizenship that you started this whole conversation with? We should be faithful with a faith “working through love” and avoid being sinful, lazy and selfish - repenting when we fall - until God calls us home. If we don’t avail ourselves of the grace that God provides to withstand the battles and temptations of this life (1Cor10:13) then we may at our personal judgement be deemed an unworthy and unfaithful servant
Now, it’s possible, of course, that I’m the one with the bias – if so you should be able to point out the errors of my analysis and explain why Paul would use the terms “separated from Christ” and “fallen from grace” when speaking to saved Christians. You should also have good explanations of why he uses terms like “hope of” righteousness and “faith working through love”. We’ll be waiting…

May God bless you now and always…

 

[William_C]

Hi William -
Again, thank you for responding. I put a fair amount of time into my comments - especially my first post to you - and I have to say I remain disappointed- though not at all surprised - that you didn’t actually address a single one. Not a single refutation of or comment on *any *of what I said? Really? Is this your usual means of discussing with those who disagree with you? You expect others to simply believe your interpretation of that Philippians verse without defending or justifying it within the context of the entire letter and the rest of Scripture? I’m guessing you either didn’t read my entire response - somewhat inconsiderate to me and - worse - inconsistent with a search for the truth. I’ll have to assume that your only response - or at least your best one - is what you have done: to run from the Philippians verse to a single verse of the Gospel of John. To be perfectly honest, I’m not at all surprised. Cherry picking (ie pulling one or two verses out of context) to establish or defend a personally held belief is very common among those who adhere to Sola Scriptura and especially those who profess OSAS.I encourage you to be more rigorous in defence of the faith. Be prepared to defend your beliefs - even in the end if we cannot agree you will prepared to better witness to others.
With respect to the verse above from John’s Gospel where does it say that all those who are saved at one point during their earthly lives will go to Heaven? I don’t see it. I don’t see Jesus claiming - as you apparently do - that “My sheep” is equivalent to everyone who ever enters his heard during their earthly life. I also don’t see that it was meant to apply to those who came after Jesus finished his earthly ministry (when people were able to “hear (his) voice”. ) Who are the “My Sheep” exactly?? Is it the apostles? Is it those who were able to “hear his voice” during his earthly life? Whatever your answer is - how do you know?? The answer is that you don’t actually know. And furthermore you can’t explain to us why there are all the other verses in Scripture that clearly discuss the possibility of losing one’s salvation by not persevering until the end. You seem perfectly content, however, to simply ignore everything that goes contrary to your preconceived notion of OSAS. The truth is that there is far more unambiguous Scripture that explicitly deals with the possibility of losing salvation.
I think you have interpreted this verse through your preconcieved theology rather than deriving your theology from it. You first believed in OSAS - probably because someone taught it to you - and then you “see” it in these verses and ignore everything else (including what others patiently point out to you from the rest of Scripture) that disagrees with it. You seem perfectly content to simply ignore everything that goes contrary to your preconceived notion of OSAS. The truth is that there is far more unambiguous Scripture that explicitly deals with the possibility of losing salvation. That is not handling the word of God properly.
To add credibility to what I’m saying I predict you will not actually address any of my comments on Philippians nor will you provide a reason for us to believe why your interpretation of “My sheep” is the one intended by Christ. But I remain hopeful that I could be mistaken. We shall see, because actions speak louder than words.

Blessings…

Philthy, thank you for all of the work you’ve put into your response, however, in light of what Jesus says in John 10:28 regarding the impossibility of the perishing of those to whom He’s given eternal life, it is you who is not understanding the verses you’ve cited. Jesus says those given to Him by the Father will never perish; therefore, salvation cannot be lost (cf Jn 6:39). That’s good news.

God bless, and thank you for offering what you have. I wish you well in your quest not to lose your salvation.

Take care.

 

[Farsight001]

Philthy, thank you for all of the work you’ve put into your response, however, in light of what Jesus says in John 10:28 regarding the impossibility of the perishing of those to whom He’s given eternal life, it is you who is not understanding the verses you’ve cited. Jesus says those given to Him by the Father will never perish; therefore, salvation cannot be lost (cf Jn 6:39). That’s good news.

God bless, and thank you for offering what you have. I wish you well in your quest not to lose your salvation.

Take care.

Cut the silly avoidance of the issue. He provided a lengthy reply to your assertion, arguing, in depth, why he believed your interpretation was wrong. A proper response is to address every point he made, individually, and in detail yourself, explaining, with logic, reason, and an argument, why you believe his interpretation of wrong. All you’ve done is vainly repeat your assertion and provide no argument. No one is going to simply blindly believe you like this. Frankly, and I don’t mean this as an insult, but it makes you look ignorant and cowardly and definitely insincere.