How to Respond to a Muslim on John 10:34

[TheObstinateAss]

So, I was arguing with a Muslim about the Divinity of Jesus in the Bible, and I pointed to John 8:58-59, which reads:

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Typically, this verse serves me well, but this particular Muslim responded with John 10:34, which reads:

The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

Basically, this Muslim responded that the Jews misunderstand Jesus. Jesus was only saying he is a “god” (as in Psalms 82:6, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you”), not that He is God. Can anyone give me some advice on how to answer this charge?

Many thanks!

 

[thistle]

So, I was arguing with a Muslim about the Divinity of Jesus in the Bible, and I pointed to John 8:58-59, which reads:

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Typically, this verse serves me well, but this particular Muslim responded with John 10:34, which reads:

The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

Basically, this Muslim responded that the Jews misunderstand Jesus. Jesus was only saying he is a “god” (as in Psalms 82:6, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you”), not that He is God. Can anyone give me some advice on how to answer this charge?

Many thanks!

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 34. This is addressed to princes established to govern the people of God. They are the image of God on earth by the authority they exercise, and which they have received from Him. — Is it not written in your law, (under which were also comprehended the Psalms) I have said: you are Gods? &c. Christ here stops the mouths of the Jews, by an argument which they could not answer, that sometimes they were called Gods, who acted by God’s authority. I have said: you are Gods. (Psalm lxxxi. 6.) But then he immediately declares, that it is not in this sense only that he is God. 1st, Because he has been sanctified by the Father, which St. Augustine and others understand of that infinite sanctification, which he has necessarily by always proceeding from the Father. Others expound it of a greater sanctity and fulness of grace above all other saints, given to him, even as he was man. But 2ndly, he adds at the same time, and confirms what he had often told them, that he was the Son of God, sent into the world: that his works shew that he was in the Father, and the Father in him. by this they saw that he was far from recalling or contradicting what he had said before. And therefore (ver. 30.[39.?]) they sought to apprehend him, and put him to death for blasphemy. (Witham) — Eloim, which name of God was so called from judging, and may be interpreted judges. (Menochius)

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Easy. “Son of God” referred to the representatives of God on Earth - the rulers and leaders that God had appointed himself. You can interpret the verse "“I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High”’ (Psalm 82:6) as hyperbole, which is a literary feature used throughout the Bible. St. Paul himself later alluded that all authority was instituted by God.

What is really important is the next verse that follows: “But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler”" (Psalm 82:7). God’s representatives on Earth may have held a high position on Earth, but in the grand scheme of things, they themselves were “mere men” who will and could not escape death. This verse however doesn’t include Jesus. For one, Scripture records that Jesus is the “alpha and the omega” (cf. John 1:1 ; Revelation 1:8), so he will not “fall like every other ruler”. Most importantly, Jesus defeated death - through the Resurrection - and did not die like a mere man. This is prophecized even from the Old Testament prophet Isaiah: “…] he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand” (Isaiah 53:10). How can a dead man see his offspring unless of course he resurrected? Jesus himself prophecizes his own resurrection: “He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day” (Luke 24:46).

So we know that Jesus wasn’t the “sons of God” spoken about in Psalms because his reign is promised to be everlasting, and he defeated death through the resurrection and therefore opened up the gates of heaven for those who found favour in God’s sight.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

So, I was arguing with a Muslim about the Divinity of Jesus in the Bible, and I pointed to John 8:58-59, which reads:

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Typically, this verse serves me well, but this particular Muslim responded with John 10:34, which reads:

The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

Basically, this Muslim responded that the Jews misunderstand Jesus. Jesus was only saying he is a “god” (as in Psalms 82:6, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you”), not that He is God. Can anyone give me some advice on how to answer this charge?

Many thanks!

How many times your Muslim friend read the text? Maybe once.
As he read once I hae to read 10 times for him to understand the question and the answer. That is when people just throw questions and put the burden on other so make the hard job of studying.
So:

If

This if is important !!! the text does not say that “he called them god” it says IF, I repeati IF…

he called them gods to whom the word of God came

that is to the Jews, to everybody who was listening to Him, so Jesus was saying “you, Jews, are gods”, not like your muslim friend interpreted

—and Scripture cannot be broken—

it means so you are “gods because the Scripture says so, and THE SCRIPTURE IS ALWAYS RIGHT, like you say”

do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

if you are “god” why cant I be “God”, in reality I was consecrated by the Father !!!

If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.

And then the “atomic bomb” argument: if I do not show that I am God, do not believe me ! (fantastic!!); but if I show you thw works of God (miracles, grace), and, even so, Jesus was being patient,

even though you do not believe me

Jesus even puts the hypothesis that someone does not believe him thought he showed the power the Apostels described

believe the works

that is absolutely fantastic, Jesus showed them by works not by words that He was the Son of God. He appealed to the miracles.

And the more fantastic is that the Jews did not repond. they dis not say: “Boy, I saw nor work of yours! Nah! Your works are nothing, compared to some magic or some magician of the Circus that I saw last night”. What is most disturbing is that the Jews KNEW those works were absolutley superbe, super-normal, hyper-human. They were speechless.

What is the argument of a person without arguments? Throw stones, which is the final proof that Jesus was God.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Regarding the plural “gods” -

John 10:34, footnote to the NAB:

QUOTE
This is a reference to the judges of Israel who, since they exercised the divine prerogative to judge (Dt 1,17), were called “gods”; cf Ex 21,6, besides Ps 82,6 from which the quotation comes.

END QUOTE

A Muslim is not likely to be convinced by anything written in the Bible, anymore than I would be convinced by anything written in the Koran.

Like St. Augustine, I wouldn’t accept the Gospel except on the authority of the Catholic Church.

 

[Big_Dummy]

lol, they borrowed that argument from the Arians known as Jehovah’s Witnesses

forananswer.org/John/Jn10_34.htm
answering-islam.org/BibleCom/index.html
answering-islam.org/BibleCom/jn10-34.html
answering-islam.org/Shamoun/john10_34-36.htm
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0018a.html
answering-islam.org/BibleCom/jn10-34-36.html

 

[thistle]

Regarding the plural “gods” -

John 10:34, footnote to the NAB:

QUOTE
This is a reference to the judges of Israel who, since they exercised the divine prerogative to judge (Dt 1,17), were called “gods”; cf Ex 21,6, besides Ps 82,6 from which the quotation comes.

END QUOTE

A Muslim is not likely to be convinced by anything written in the Bible, anymore than I would be convinced by anything written in the Koran.

Like St. Augustine, I wouldn’t accept the Gospel except on the authority of the Catholic Church.

You are right about the muslims and the Bible. If the Bible contains something that supports any claim they make they quote it but if the Bible refutes any claim they make then they simply say that part of the Bible is corrupted.
Typical for such a false religion!

 

[TheObstinateAss]

You are right about the muslims and the Bible. If the Bible contains something that supports any claim they make they quote it but if the Bible refutes any claim they make then they simply say that part of the Bible is corrupted.

Sadly, this has, indeed, been my experience. The Muslim I was chatting with, for instance, denied every post-resurrection saying of Jesus on the grounds that Jesus was neither crucified nor died by crucifixion. When I asked him why he believed that Jesus was neither crucified nor died by crucifixion, when the earliest sources all agree that Jesus was in fact crucified and died, he pointed to the fact that the Qur’an says otherwise. I then asked him why I should take seriously such a late document as the Qur’an, especially when it contradicts the earlier sources, and he attacked the Trinity.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

So, I was arguing with a Muslim about the Divinity of Jesus in the Bible, and I pointed to John 8:58-59, which reads:

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Typically, this verse serves me well, but this particular Muslim responded with John 10:34, which reads:

The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

Basically, this Muslim responded that the Jews misunderstand Jesus. Jesus was only saying he is a “god” (as in Psalms 82:6, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you”), not that He is God. Can anyone give me some advice on how to answer this charge?

Many thanks!

For starters, see Jn 1:1 with Jn 1:14 and Jn 1:18. Also Jn 13:19.
Add to that the climax of the gospel is Thomas’ profession of faith “My Lord and my God.” 20:28.

As for v34ff, Raymond Brown’s commentary on the Gospel of John, Vol. I, pp. 409-10, explains Jesus’ Rabbinical argument in citing the Psalm.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Like the JWs, if Jesus was saying he was only “a god” and the orginal Greek manuscripts are in all Caps, that means Jesus believed in Two Gods, and thus Muslims are dishonoring Jesus by claiming he was a polytheist in John 10.

Also, the “a god” claim makes no sense in light of “I am the Father are ONE”.
This texts explains both John 10:30 and what we mean by “son of God” since muslims will have problems with both.

Sermons on the New Testament (Augustine) > Sermon 89

1**. You have heard what the Lord God, Jesus Christ, the Only Son of God, born of God the Father without any mother, and born of a Virgin mother without any human father, said, “I and My Father are One.” **Receive this, believe it in such wise that you may attain to understand it. For faith ought to go before understanding, that understanding may be the reward of faith. For the Prophet has said most expressly, “Unless you believe, you shall not understand.” What then is simply preached is to be believed; what is with exactness discussed, is to be understood. At first then to imbue your minds with faith we preach to you Christ, the Only Son of God the Father. Why is added, “The Only Son”? Because He whose Only Son He is, has many sons by grace. All the rest then, all saints are sons of God by grace, He Alone by Nature. They who are sons of God by grace are not What the Father is. And no saint has ever dared to say, what that Only Son says, “I and My Father are One.” Is He not then our Father too? If He be not our Father, how say we when we pray, “Our Father, which art in heaven”? But we are sons whom He has made sons by His Own will, not begotten as sons of His Own Nature. And in truth He has begotten us too, but as it is said, as adopted ones, begotten by the favour of His adoption, not by Nature. And this too are we called, for that “God has called us into the adoption of sons;” we are though adopted, men. He is called the Only Son, the Only Begotten, in that, He is That which the Father is; but we are men, The Father is God. In then that He is That which the Father is; He said, and said truly, “I and My Father are One.” What is, “are One”? Are of one Nature. What is, “are One”? Are of one Substance.

newadvent.org/fathers/160389.htm

newadvent.org/fathers/330207.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/330208.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/28164.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/240164.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/1701005.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/28164.htm

google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS448&source=hp&q=site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org+John+10%3A30+nature+substance&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS448&pbx=1&oq=site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org+John+10%3A30+nature+substance&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=47563l51547l3l51782l17l15l0l0l0l0l282l2938l0.9.6l15l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=bba2c06f8d6affd6&biw=1024&bih=493

 

[E_Thrower_II]

Sadly, this has, indeed, been my experience. The Muslim I was chatting with, for instance, denied every post-resurrection saying of Jesus on the grounds that Jesus was neither crucified nor died by crucifixion. When I asked him why he believed that Jesus was neither crucified nor died by crucifixion, when the earliest sources all agree that Jesus was in fact crucified and died, he pointed to the fact that the Qur’an says otherwise. I then asked him why I should take seriously such a late document as the Qur’an, especially when it contradicts the earlier sources, and he attacked the Trinity.

I guess that would make him inclined to the sect of the Sadducees (Acts 23:8). Perhaps the first part to understanding God’s Word is to believe what it says.