How to Respond to Anti-Catholic Beliefs

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I have tried to explain Catholic teaching on certain subjects to a friend of mine who is very spiritual, but very firm in her belief that the Catholic Church is not the Church started by Christ. I just found this out today. Among other things she stated that the Catholic Church does not have Apostolic teaching and that all they did was change everything. I asked her to please provide examples and proof, and she said that she didn’t need to, that scripture tells her everything she needs to know. I reminded her that the Catholic Church wrote the Bible that she is using Scripture from to refute the Catholic Church, and her response is that it wasn’t the Catholic Church that wrote it, but The Church. She stated that we made up doctrines that she doesn’t agree with, but won’t tell me what they are. I am not going to bombard her, but I do want to know how to respond to her comments when she makes them. I have read so many wonderful explanations through the threads, they seem impossible to find now. Thank you everyone for your help.
 
Actually, God gave us the OT through the Jews and gave us the NT through the Apostles. The Holy Spirit is the one who has kept it safe.

All man has done is write documents proclaiming the wrong canon. The RCC has 7 uninspired OT books plus uninspired additions to Daniel and Esther.

We know what is inspired because we trust that God led Abraham’s decendants to preserve the correct OT inspired books. We know that the NT is inspired because they were written by the apostles and we have faith that God has used people down through the ages to preserve those holy books.

So everyone has a right to use scripture because it is inspired by God and is profitable to make a man complete ready for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
 
I have tried to explain Catholic teaching on certain subjects to a friend of mine who is very spiritual, but very firm in her belief that the Catholic Church is not the Church started by Christ. I just found this out today. Among other things she stated that the Catholic Church does not have Apostolic teaching and that all they did was change everything. I asked her to please provide examples and proof, and she said that she didn’t need to, that scripture tells her everything she needs to know. I reminded her that the Catholic Church wrote the Bible that she is using Scripture from to refute the Catholic Church, and her response is that it wasn’t the Catholic Church that wrote it, but The Church. She stated that we made up doctrines that she doesn’t agree with, but won’t tell me what they are. I am not going to bombard her, but I do want to know how to respond to her comments when she makes them. I have read so many wonderful explanations through the threads, they seem impossible to find now. Thank you everyone for your help.
For your friend:

Earliest Use of the Name “Catholic Church”

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as the Way (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those who followed Christ began to be called Christians beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26).

What you do not realize is that as early as 107 A.D., that same group was referred to as the Catholic Church. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote, “You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])

Notice that Ignatius does not introduce the term “Catholic Church”; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. That means that the Christian assembly was probably calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century.

As a side note, it is interesting that the believers in Antioch coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church”.

As for where we got the Bible, there is no question that it was inspired by God. However, it was written by men, and these men were thoroughly Catholic. As one famous person wrote, “We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists [Catholics]–that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it.” (Commentary on St. John, ch. 16)

Who was that famous person? Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant Reformation.
 
First, keep in mind that this discussion has been going on for hundreds of years, and you’re not likely to solve it in your friends mind.

Some people have made up their minds about Catholocism, and that’s that. What you might suggest is that your friend look into the history of the Reformation and to actually look into the theology of the doctrines to which she objects.

Seems to me the more people actually know about the Catholic Church, the less objections they have to her doctrines. Most objections, methinks, are based on incorrect information.
 
Here are many more quotes from the early Church using the name “Catholic Church”. See the section: The Church is called “Catholic”
 
Actually, God gave us the OT through the Jews and gave us the NT through the Apostles. The Holy Spirit is the one who has kept it safe.

All man has done is write documents proclaiming the wrong canon. The RCC has 7 uninspired OT books plus uninspired additions to Daniel and Esther.

We know what is inspired because we trust that God led Abraham’s decendants to preserve the correct OT inspired books. We know that the NT is inspired because they were written by the apostles and we have faith that God has used people down through the ages to preserve those holy books.

So everyone has a right to use scripture because it is inspired by God and is profitable to make a man complete ready for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
**The Canon of Scripture was decided upon by the Catholic Church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit - just as Jesus promised (John 16:13-15). **

The Jewish leaders held a conference at Jabneh - with the permission of the Roman Empire after the fall of Jerusalem - some 50 years after the death, resurrection and ascencion of our Lord.

Why on earth would a Christian of today side with the post-Temple Jewish leaders about the Canon of Scripture or ANYthing pertaining to Jesus?? They rejected the him *and *the books from the Septuagint - the very same books Jesus studied from. **
 
DD2007,
Thank you for your response. I am sorry to say that history is not on your side. It has long been historically proven that your understanding of how the Bible was canonized is in error. This is what you have been taught by those outside of Apostolic teaching. All you have to do is research it for yourself. Even a cursory look into it, will show you the error. If you want to be anti-Catholic, that is your right, but by shunning everything Catholic, you are shunning Christ’s very teachings He gave to His Church. Luther threw the 7 books out of the Bible and parts of others. Please get your facts straight.
 
She threw several things at me today starting with the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath, the successors to the apostles were not Catholic, total submersion in baptism, Jesus didn’t establish a heirarchy, the Church didn’t even have the name Catholic until 1,000 AD, and possibly thinks the Eucharist is symbolic. I know this is too many topics to discuss at once, but if someone wants to take a stab at it, go ahead. I mentioned to her about SDA and she said she didn’t agree with them about many things, but that she felt that they were right in the 7th day Sabbath. To her, the Sabbath commandment was required by God, and even though Jesus came, that does not throw the commandments out the window. Even the apostles kept the Sabbath Day holy, so we should too. God gave us the 10 commandments and He didn’t tell us that we didn’t need to worship on the Sabbath.
 
One more thing… For some reason, she also said that Sunday observance wasn’t practiced in the Church until around 1,000. I gave her many examples of where they did, but to no avail.
 
DD2007,
Thank you for your response. I am sorry to say that history is not on your side. It has long been historically proven that your understanding of how the Bible was canonized is in error. This is what you have been taught by those outside of Apostolic teaching. All you have to do is research it for yourself. Even a cursory look into it, will show you the error. If you want to be anti-Catholic, that is your right, but by shunning everything Catholic, you are shunning Christ’s very teachings He gave to His Church. Luther threw the 7 books out of the Bible and parts of others. Please get your facts straight.
For the record, I disagree that the preservation of the bible is accredited to the Roman Catholic Church. To “open ones eyes” to such error would be counter productive and a gross denial of reality.

I believe that the Holy Spirit preserved the bible. God compelled people as he saw fit to preserve the bible. If such a thing was left up to man then it would have certainly been lost. Remeber no single denomination was used as the sole tool. The Eastern Churches have the bible as well. The Protestant Churches have the bible as well. The protestants recognize that we got the OT from the Jews who God used to preserve it and the New Testament from the Apostles and the Holy Spirit used people in the Church to protect it. So for OT we believe the witness of the Jews for the NT we believe the witness of the Apostles and believe that those are the authentic writings that the Spirit had preserved.

We do not acknowledge that the Roman Catholic Church wrote or gave the world the bible. The bible is God’s work and we recieved it by his grace alone.
 
One more thing… For some reason, she also said that Sunday observance wasn’t practiced in the Church until around 1,000. I gave her many examples of where they did, but to no avail.
Sometimes when you prove something and it still doesn’t get through you’re up against a mental block. No need to :banghead:
until you:whackadoo: . Just :signofcross: for her and await some better, more open chance to talk. Sometimes when people are ready they hint. I’m looking for words to get through blocks, too, but more for dealing with anti-Christians than with anti-Catholic Christians, so I’m trying to learn more sensitivity to when it’s time to retreat and when it’s time to try another tack.🤷
 
**Hi posters. 👋

What has always amazed me is how Catholics allow others to call themselves “christians” Protestants and other groups read, rewrite, modify, deleate, and distort sacred scriptures andwrite their own bibles. Then they form groups. They call these groups things like: denominations; associations; conferences; conventions; communions; fellowships; groups, sects; cults;, unions; socials; and even pot lucks.

They do not follow the teachings of Jesus as written in the scriptures. Why do Catholics insist on calling these false beleivers Christians? Just because they say they are doesn’t mean that we should endorse their false beliefs or their counterfeit religions.

Some people wonder why Protestants come to Catholic’s sites. Even the ones that reject us realize that the Catholic church is the original church. They will twist and distort the sacred scriptures in the hope of making themselves believe that their false beliefs are really Jesus teachings.

If all Catholics, stood firm with the Pope and denied their groups from being called churches at all, maybe the false believers would come to our church. If not they would soon realize that Christ’s real church denies them Jesus sais he would tell them “I do not know you!”

They desire our validation, I say, Do not give it to them!
Click on: Catholic Faith**

They need our prayers. They need our love. They do not need to be lied to! Right now many of them believe that they are also worshiping Jesus like we do, just in a different manner. How foolish! They fail to realize that if they are not complying with the teachings and practices of the Catholic church as Jesus Himself directed! They aren’t following Christ and therefore should not be called “Christians” which means follower of Christ.

Many people think it is hateful to say such things. Actually I think everyone born is a children of God and as our fellow sinners deserve to be granted salvation. I also think it is hateful to lie to people. Jesus came so all could obtain eternal life! Not just a chosen few. Everyone can become Catholic and be granted eternal salvation!

How can we sit and allow others to continue to be deceived by their counterfeit churches? May good and holy people are in danger of losing their souls because well meaning Catholics have a distorted belief that our Christian beliefs aren’t meant to be followed by all people who desire to call themselves christians. They are and if they aren’t followed, these so called followers have no right to call themselves christians. This is just as true for Catholics that do not live the Faith to the best of their ability. How can they consider themselves Catholics?

Pray for everyone. Deny no one the right to worship the way they desire . Do not hate! Spread love! But do not call Protestants anything but “Protestants” because they are protesting against the Christian Church founded by Jesus! They are “Unchristians” and Heretics! The truth is the truth!

The Catholic Church reaches in unbroken succession to the days of St. Peter and Paul, who suffered martyrdom in Rome. Ourfaith is 2,000 years old and is more fully developed and consolidated in doctrine, worship, and polity than any other Church. We should proudly identifies ourselves as the Body of Christ, and denounce the false “christians” as schismatics and heretics.

In less than 500 years, there is currently around 61,000 counterfeit christian groups. Protestant groups themselves can’t even count their various groups because many of them don’t even agree or recognize others who try to associate with them. Many groups just say "we are part of the “Christian” church believing in the autonomy of their local church as some kind of independent like congregation. All of these things help to complicate accurate counting.Take the Baptists for example! There are over 220,000 Baptist congregations worldwide. If we didn’t group them together, actually against their own desires sometimes, into manageable groups, the number of Protestant denominations could well number over 500,000 or more! Who is leading all these Protestant groups? Well if they are not following the gospel of Christ nor the teachings of Christ’s church who do you think they must be following? Christ wouldn’t lead anyone in two opposite directions!
Protestants keep dividing and multiplying into more and more groups. Protestantism has been compaired to a cancerous growth on the Body of Christ. It is truly amazing that they themselves can’t see this fact.]

All 61,000 groups use parts of the authentic doctrines of the Catholic church mixed up with corrupted teachings whichare in direct conflict with Jesus’ teachings as taught by His real Church.

Protestants constantly spread their corrupted, distorted, and false beliefs. The amazing thing is they all partially agree with the CC and all partially disagree with the CC. They don’t agree with each other on many things and keep dividing and becoming more corrupt and distorted. They all agree that the Catholic church is wrong. The old saying “The truth shall set you free” is never more obvious than in the conversion process when a Protestant finally sees the truth!

Remember that the Catholic church has taught only the truth for 2,000 years refusing to compromise the truth even to save souls 500 years ago.

Today, only the Catholic sects remain faithful to all of Jesus teachings. The 61,000 false denominations continue to attempt to infect Jesus real church! Only the Holy Sprit protects us from this evil identified by the uncontrolled division and multiplication and hate for Jesus real church! He founded only one Holy Catholic and Apolostic church and it is still here!
 
She threw several things at me today starting with the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath, the successors to the apostles were not Catholic, total submersion in baptism, Jesus didn’t establish a heirarchy, the Church didn’t even have the name Catholic until 1,000 AD, and possibly thinks the Eucharist is symbolic. I know this is too many topics to discuss at once, but if someone wants to take a stab at it, go ahead. I mentioned to her about SDA and she said she didn’t agree with them about many things, but that she felt that they were right in the 7th day Sabbath. To her, the Sabbath commandment was required by God, and even though Jesus came, that does not throw the commandments out the window. Even the apostles kept the Sabbath Day holy, so we should too. God gave us the 10 commandments and He didn’t tell us that we didn’t need to worship on the Sabbath.
**

Hi Always, 👋

There is a group of Baptist called the The Seventh-Day Baptists. Their beliefs differlittle from the tenets of many of the other Baptists groups generally only in their observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord. “Sabbatarian Baptists” organized in 1671. In 1818 they adopted the name Seventh Day Baptists. The Sabbath is a day set aside for God. It can be any day of the week actually. Christians and most Protestants normally use Sunday. **
 
Actually, God gave us the OT through the Jews and gave us the NT through the Apostles. The Holy Spirit is the one who has kept it safe.

All man has done is write documents proclaiming the wrong canon. The RCC has 7 uninspired OT books plus uninspired additions to Daniel and Esther.

We know what is inspired because we trust that God led Abraham’s decendants to preserve the correct OT inspired books. We know that the NT is inspired because they were written by the apostles and we have faith that God has used people down through the ages to preserve those holy books.

So everyone has a right to use scripture because it is inspired by God and is profitable to make a man complete ready for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
**
Hi DD 2007, 👋

I bet you are one of the guys who think about the King James Version: “If it was good enough for the apostle Paul, it is good enough for me!”

I hope you realize that St. Paul, of course, was 1550 years too early for the KJV. The New Testament books are written between 51-125AD. The Apostles used the OT. The Catholic church made and used the NT. The Protestants corrupted it and have false interpretations of Jesus’ teachings!

The original New Testament writers wrote in Koine Greek, the language of the common man in the first century A.D.

Marcion, a businessman in Rome, taught that there were two Gods: Yahweh, the cruel God of the Old Testament, and Abba, the kind father of the New Testament. Marcion eliminated the Old Testament as scriptures and, since he was anti-Semitic, kept from the New Testament only 10 letters of Paul and 2/3 of Luke’s gospel (he deleted references to Jesus’s Jewishness). Marcion’s “New Testament”, the first to be compiled, forced the mainstream Church to decide on a core canon: the four Gospels and Letters of Paul. 140AD

The periphery of the canon is not yet determined. According to one list, compiled at Rome c. AD 200 (the Muratorian Canon), the NT consists of the 4 gospels; Acts; 13 letters of Paul (Hebrews is not included); 3 of the 7 General Epistles (1-2 John and Jude); and also the Apocalypse of Peter. 200AD

The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in his Festal letter # 39 of 367
AD

Council of Rome (whereby Pope Damasus started the ball rolling for the defining of a universal canon for all city-churches). Listed the New Testament books in their present number and order. c382AD.

The Council of Hippo, which began “arguing it out.” Canon proposed by Bishop Athanasius. 383 AD

The Council of Carthage, which refined the canon for the Western Church, sending it back to Pope Innocent for ratification. In the East, the canonical process was hampered by a number of schisms (esp. within the Church of Antioch). 397 AD

However, this was changed by …

The Ecumenical Council of Nicaea II, which adopted the canon of Carthage. At this point, both the Latin West and the Greek / Byzantine East had the same canon. 787AD

However, … The non-Greek, Monophysite and Nestorian Churches of the East (the Copts, the Ethiopians, the Syrians, the Armenians, the Syro-Malankars, the Chaldeans, and the Malabars) were still left out. But these Churches came together in agreement, in 1442A.D., in Florence.

The system of chapters was introduced by Cardinal Hugo de S. Caro, 1238

At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognized the 27 books. This council confirmed the Roman Catholic Canon of the Bible which Pope Damasus I had published a thousand years earlier. So, by 1439, all orthodox branches of the Church were legally bound to the same canon. 1442AD. This was 100 years before the Reformation.

The first complete English Bible was not produced until John Wycliffe produced his in the fourteenth century. He translated from the Latin Vulgate which was the most widely used version at that time.

In hiscorrupted translation of the Bible from Greek into German, Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical. 1536AD

At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once and for all the full list of 27 books. The council also confirmed the inclusion of the Deuterocanonical books which had been a part of the Bible canon since the early Church and was confirmed at the councils of 393 AD, 373, 787 and 1442 AD. At Trent Rome actually dogmatized the canon, making it more than a matter of canon law, which had been the case up to that point, closing it for good. 1546AD

The next major step in the development of the English Bible was Tyndale’s translation of the New Testament published in 1526 and portions of the Old Testament published later. Tyndale’s version was significant because it was translated from a newly published Greek New Testament rather than from the Vulgate. After Tyndale’s, a number of other versions were produced. Among them were the Coverdale Bible, the Matthews Bible, the Great Bible, the Geneva Bible, and the Bishops’ Bible.

The in 1611 the King James Version was published to provide a Bible which could be used by both Anglicans and Puritans 4,200 changes were made then and thousands since.

The latest news on the KJV? :** **Click On: After 400 years the KJV of the Bible is still the same! **

😃
 
The Canon of Scripture was decided upon by the Catholic Church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit - just as Jesus promised (John 16:13-15).

The Jewish leaders held a conference at Jabneh - with the permission of the Roman Empire after the fall of Jerusalem - some 50 years after the death, resurrection and ascencion of our Lord.

Why on earth** would a Christian of today side with the post-Temple Jewish leaders about the Canon of Scripture or ANYthing pertaining to Jesus?? They rejected the him *and *the books from the Septuagint - the very same books Jesus studied from.
Elvis is back in the house! “Thank you very much.” 👍
 
**
Hi DD 2007, 👋

I bet you are one of the guys who think about the King James Version: “If it was good enough for the apostle Paul, it is good enough for me!”**

I have a full grasp of the textual history of the bible. And I think the King James is out of date and I don’t use it.

The best available translation into english is the ESV.

I believe the bible was given to us by God and no men can be credited with it. Anyone involved was at the service of the Almighty. God used the Jews, the Apostles, the Early Church, the Eastern Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, the Protestants, and now the bible is secured not only in hard text but digitally as well. It is the best selling book of all time. So you can go down to Barnes and Noble and find a bible that got there and into your hands by the work of God.
 
We all agree that the fact that the Bible was inspired and preserved through the ages is certainly by God’s grace. But it does not take away from God to say that he used His Church (the Catholic Church) to be the mechanism for gathering the books, deciding which are canon and which were left out, and for faithfully reviewing and approving translations. The Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church to make the canon, as there really is not other good way for it to be accomplished

There are many current and past translations of the Bible that you and we would both not considered true or inspired. God’s word is inerrant, but as men are charged with translating language from culture to culture, and across time, this can be a problem. Just because a book is titled The Bible, does not mean it faithfully represents the word that the Holy Spirit inspired men to write. You just said the ESV is the best, yet all are Bibles are they not? Were the people of the last 2000 years before the ESV not fully receiving God’s Word because their bibles were not the best?

The problem can come because we tend to look back lovingly at this gift God gave us of the Bible (and which I believe you have) as being one event – the giving of the Bible. However, the real view is that we are looking at a series of events in history, where the Bible took form and was set in a canon over 300 years after Christ (give or take) – still under God’s guidance… The people and events taking place at each of those steps are important.

The Church Fathers who gathered the apostolic writings into the Bible were decidedly Catholic in their practices (Mass, the sacraments, Apostolic succession, etc). They also had the authority, as given by God, to undertake this work (the powers given by the apostles by Christ and handed down). This authority is passed through time in the Catholic Church.

So, to credit the Catholic Church in this case, glorifies God as we see his grace acting in His Church to bring the Bible to us.

Even Martin Luther said this, when he noted:

As one famous person wrote, “We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists [Catholics]–that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it.” (Commentary on St. John, ch. 16)

Catholics in general recognize, that (1) because relationships are important to God, and that (2) he needed a way to transmit his inerrant word through errant men over time, that a two-part plan was needed. He caused the Church to write the Bible (from the Holy Spirit’s inspiration). But this book is subject to problems of language changing over time and place and culture. So, he also used the teaching office of the Church (called the magesterium) to guide the faithful in understanding the Bible, explain its teachings, and to provide governance to lead people to Him. It is a simple system in which each of the two components of His Word can check and fortify each other.

Without the Church being there to form the Bible, you would be left explaining things like:
  1. Where in the Bible is the table of contents showing what books will be in it?
  2. Where is the official and single glossary of words and meanings in the Bible – our translators admit there are words we don’t know the meaning of anymore in the Bible
  3. Where did God say the Jews, AFTER the New Covenant was established, were to be the ones to give us the Old Testament canon?
  4. Why are there differences in translation among versions of the Bible for sale today (and in history) – some of which are contradictory (the answer is that some must have been errantly translated)
  5. How will God tell each believer what the Bible means and which books to accept? The evidence of thousands of different Protestant Churches with different theologies argues that He cannot transmit it directly to each person. Plus, each person needs to be taught by others. this is both a form of tradition and unless God guaranteed it somehow, could be faulty.
We all know the Bible does not appear out of air on each new believer’s table. God used people to bring this about, under his guidance. He wants us to be connected to each other and to Him in a relationship as His Body, so that we can reflect and share in the relationship the persons in the Holy Trinity have with each other.

Is this a reasonable perspective to a non-Catholic?
 
We all know the Bible does not appear out of air on each new believer’s table. God used people to bring this about, under his guidance. He wants us to be connected to each other and to Him in a relationship as His Body, so that we can reflect and share in the relationship the persons in the Holy Trinity have with each other.

Is this a reasonable perspective to a non-Catholic?
As long as you acknowledge that God gave us the bible and wants us to worship him and be baptized into the Church, I’m on board.

I will not claim that humans are to be given any credit for the bible. It is God’s work. He gave it to us. He used His creation to do it. It is His word in our anthropomorphic language.
 
I have a full grasp of the textual history of the bible. And I think the King James is out of date and I don’t use it.

The best available translation into english is the ESV.

I believe the bible was given to us by God and no men can be credited with it. Anyone involved was at the service of the Almighty. God used the Jews, the Apostles, the Early Church, the Eastern Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, the Protestants, and now the bible is secured not only in hard text but digitally as well. It is the best selling book of all time. So you can go down to Barnes and Noble and find a bible that got there and into your hands by the work of God.
Hi DD2007, 👋

Any version of the bible, correctly interpreted by the Catholic church, is good for salvation. Bibles that are expanded and used for self instructions are often instruments used by Satan to gain souls through the use of the word of God!


God Bless
 
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