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Sky_River
Guest
Which prophet of the Old Testament was non-Jewish?
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, none of them.
That’s my point.
How do you believe God could speak to a tribe that didn’t know He existed?
Tell me how you think it would have worked to have God never order any other nation to go to war? What would that have looked like to you?
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buffalo
Guest
When you go to the surgeon do you ask him to remove just part of the tumor?I’ve struggled with this issue a lot, especially 1 Samuel 15, where God instructs Saul to exterminate the Amalekites, including women, children, animals, etc. Scholarly Catholic footnotes tend to vary widely on their interpretation of this.
The Douay-Rheims (Challoner) footnote says, “The great Master of life and death, (who cuts off one half of mankind whilst they are children) has been pleased sometimes to ordain that children should be put to the sword, in detestation of the crimes of their parents, and that they might not live to follow the same wicked ways.] But without such ordinance of God it is not allowable, in any wars, how just soever, to kill children.”
The footnote in the NAB has this: “Under the ban: in such wars of extermination, all things (men, cities, beasts, etc.) were to be blotted out; nothing could be reserved for private use. The interpretation of God’s will here attributed to Samuel is in keeping with the abhorrent practices of blood revenge prevalent among pastoral, seminomadic peoples such as the Hebrews had recently been. The slaughter of the innocent has never been in conformity with the will of God.”
My Orthodox Study Bible doesn’t say anything about this passage.
Naturally, I find the second interpretation much more satisfying. I look forward to seeing what others have to say about this.
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Zipply
Guest
This is, of course, occasionalist heresy, attributing to God’s active will all the deaths of innocent children in the world. It’s scandalous, unconscionable…and no one seems to notice.
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buffalo
Guest
Are all children innocent?
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Sky_River
Guest
What confuses me is the fact that God condoned Israel going to war to punish nations (Caananite nations) for their sins, but he didnt condone any other nations going to war to punish other nations for their sins. The Book of Isaiah does say God stirred up Assyria and Babylon, but that doesnt mean God condoned them going to war with Israel. The Bible doesnt say that God told them to do certain actions towards Israel, like he told Israel to do towards Caanan.
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, since none of the other tribes knew about Yahweh, it’s a moot point, no?
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clem456
Guest
Really, you are going to ask that question?
Can’t we just give children who are non-combatants a presumption of innocence? Is that too much to ask?
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buffalo
Guest
Indeed.
What became of these souls? Do we know? How do we know God didn’t do a more merciful act taking them to heaven, thus saving them from what their parents were?
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Zipply
Guest
Of course he is. We’re in the fundy Catholic twilight zone, where God kills babies for mercy.
You sure, really sure, that we’re all practicing the same religion?
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Sky_River
Guest
What does the other tribes not knowing about Yahweh have anything to do with whether or not their acts of war were justified? God condoned the Israelites going to war with Caanan because it was God’s will to punish Caanan for their sins as an act of justice, and if God stirred up Assyria and Babylon to go to war with Israel, it’s safe to assume that God also condoned their actions. Why do you think otherwise?
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clem456
Guest
So rather than allow these innocents, who are already born of sinful parents (aren’t we all?), to live their lives with the potential for conversion to the true God, God wants the ancients to kill them instead?
This line of thinking is horrifying. It justifies slaughter in the name of a merciful God.
“We kill you because it’s good for you. I heard God tell me to do it”.
It’s an interpretation that is incompatible with Christianity.
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PRmerger
Guest
I don’t understand your question.
You think God should have told the Assyrians and Babylonians not to go to war with Israel?
If so, how would He do this?
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Zipply
Guest
Clem456 wrote:
It is THE primary apologetic of the new atheists and THE primary roadblock in the way of the New Evangelization, this New Marcionism. The idea that God was literally violent and jealous in the OT but is peaceful and merciful now. Like you have said previously, Clem, it is essentially positing two Gods, which is exactly what Marcion did.
Yep.
It is THE primary apologetic of the new atheists and THE primary roadblock in the way of the New Evangelization, this New Marcionism. The idea that God was literally violent and jealous in the OT but is peaceful and merciful now. Like you have said previously, Clem, it is essentially positing two Gods, which is exactly what Marcion did.
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buffalo
Guest
What is the issue if God takes these souls into His bosom?
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clem456
Guest
The issue is human beings violating the inviolable, the right to life that is proper to the dignity of every person.
It’s not like the Assumption, where God takes Mary to himself. This is not God taking to his bosom, this is slaughter on one human being by another. Surely there is a difference.
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Tomdstone
Guest
I have heard that justification but with another religion in the Mideast region.
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Achilles6129
Guest
Well, obviously God allows the deaths of all of the innocent children in the world. He could prevent it if he wanted to and chooses not to. Interesting, isn’t it?
If someone’s innocent then why would God order them physically killed? Or is physical death even the real definition of death for God? Perhaps physical death is the definition of death for human beings but it isn’t for God?
In that case, why would God create them in the first place? And if you say that he created them for their good so they could all go to heaven and be with him, then why didn’t he create more of them and then it would have been even better?
I think that a possible solution to the fact that God does exterminate entire civilizations (and even nearly all of humanity) in Scripture is that phyiscal death may not be the actual definition of death for God. Consider the following passage:
"51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”
52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”" Jn. 8:51-53 (NIV)
Notice how carnal, natural man interprets death as physical death but that Christ clearly has a different definition of death. This may be relevant for our approach to theology, particularly in these places in the OT.
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clem456
Guest
Exactly. That interpretation doesn’t pass the smell test.
Murder is murder, whether the one murdered goes to eternal life or not. Can you see what a weak justification that is? (or no justification whatsoever)
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clem456
Guest
You mean that God allows all human beings to die? Of course
That’s a nice observation but the topic at hand is violence. Violence is not God’s providence, it’s one person taking the life of another.
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