How to Respond to Old Testament Violence?

[Achilles6129]

So is God speaking literally or metaphorically in Malachi 1:11?

And what verse in Scripture tells you the answer regarding Malachi 1:11? Book, chapter and verse, please!

I see no reason why Malachi 1:11 shouldn’t be taken literally. And the Scripture that tells you the answer about Malachi 1:11 is…Malachi 1:11.

 

[PRmerger]

I see no reason why Malachi 1:11 shouldn’t be taken literally.

Fair enough.

So it must be taken literally.

“For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD of hosts.

Does your church offer incense from the rising of the sun to its setting?

In the Catholic Church, through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we do indeed fulfill this prophecy of Malachi LITERALLY.

In every continent of the world, from east to west, from the rising of the sun to its setting, a Catholic Mass is being offered, and a pure sacrifice–Christ Himself–is being presented before the Eternal Throne of heaven.

But I’m not sure how your church does that, literally?

 

[PRmerger]

And the Scripture that tells you the answer about Malachi 1:11 is…Malachi 1:11.

Well, that’s actually not helpful at all.

Someone else could say, “God told me that Malachi 1:11 is only to be taken symbolically.”

And what would your response be?

It seems like in the past your answer would be, “God has told us how Malachi 1:11 is to be interpreted.”

But there actually is nothing from God telling us whether Malachi 1:11 is to be taken literally or figuratively.

 

[PRmerger]

And the Scripture that tells you the answer about Malachi 1:11 is…Malachi 1:11.

Imagine this parallel scenario:

You: “I have a source that translates things for you!”
Me: “Really? Do you have a source that translates this for me?”



And you respond with: “Of course I have a source that translates that for you! Here it is!”



That would be utterly unhelpful, right?

You can’t use a yardstick that’s already in question as the canon to measure other yardsticks.

 

[zz912]

No, it is God who has that authority. The Church (and I assume you’re referring to the Catholic Church) is made up of individuals. And if, as I said before, God has that authority,

And God gave that authority to the Church. It is explicit in Scripture.

and the nature of God is such that he is honest, then God will make it clear when he is speaking literally and when he is not. All it takes is some sincere study on our part

That’s presumption on our part. God gave us a Church to look to for guidance. He gave authority to that Church. He did not promise us that we would never succumb to the gates of hell, but that promise was made to His Church.

That there are things in Paul’s epistles that are hard to understand has no bearing on a literal/metaphorical interpretation of the Bible. There may be passages that are hard to understand but in no case should we ever be in doubt whether they’re literal or not.

Yes, because they are hard to understand will lead some to error in whether something is literal or not. It will cause many other types of error. That’s why there is a Church to guide us.

 

[clem456]

Here’s a verse from Scripture:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

What does this verse mean in the interpretation of Scripture, especially in the area of literalism?

 

[Achilles6129]

“For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD of hosts.

Does your church offer incense from the rising of the sun to its setting?

In the Catholic Church, through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we do indeed fulfill this prophecy of Malachi LITERALLY.

In every continent of the world, from east to west, from the rising of the sun to its setting, a Catholic Mass is being offered, and a pure sacrifice–Christ Himself–is being presented before the Eternal Throne of heaven.

There you go then - it’s been fulfilled. Certainly things like “incense” and “grain offering” can be symbolic of worship (though they don’t have to be, and people could have worshipped the Creator with incense/grain offering all over the world), but the literal aspect of the verse is certain: that God will be worshiped all over the world. I would also actually argue that the passage is using the present tense and that God is referring to something happening at that moment: people were worshipping him all over the world.

Well, that’s actually not helpful at all.

Someone else could say, “God told me that Malachi 1:11 is only to be taken symbolically.”

And what would your response be?

It seems like in the past your answer would be, “God has told us how Malachi 1:11 is to be interpreted.”

But there actually is nothing from God telling us whether Malachi 1:11 is to be taken literally or figuratively.

The point is that God would make it clear how Malachi 1:11 is to be interpreted, and he did. Only by an unreasonable splitting-of-hairs could you come to another conclusion.

 

[Achilles6129]

And God gave that authority to the Church. It is explicit in Scripture.

Where? And how do you know that the Catholic church is the real church?

Yes, because they are hard to understand will lead some to error in whether something is literal or not.

No doubt it may. God is still required to make it clear what he’s talking about, however.

 

[Achilles6129]

Here’s a verse from Scripture:

What does this verse mean in the interpretation of Scripture, especially in the area of literalism?

It means the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.

 

[PRmerger]

There you go then - it’s been fulfilled. Certainly things like “incense” and “grain offering” can be symbolic of worship (though they don’t have to be, and people could have worshipped the Creator with incense/grain offering all over the world), but the literal aspect of the verse is certain: that God will be worshiped all over the world. I would also actually argue that the passage is using the present tense and that God is referring to something happening at that moment: people were worshipping him all over the world

What verse tells you that this no longer needs to be done?

“Incense is going to be offered”.

Literally.

Where is the verse that says this doesn’t need to occur anymore?

 

[PRmerger]

The point is that God would make it clear how Malachi 1:11 is to be interpreted, and he did. Only by an unreasonable splitting-of-hairs could you come to another conclusion.

What verse says, as you have decided, that it has a literal meaning?

Where did God indicate that, regarding Malachi 1:11?

 

[clem456]

It means the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.

Thanks for repeating the passage.
What does it mean? How can the Word be a person?
I thought the Word was a book in your way of thinking…

 

[Achilles6129]

What verse tells you that this no longer needs to be done?

“Incense is going to be offered”.

Literally.

Where is the verse that says this doesn’t need to occur anymore?

Because the passage is actually present tense:

"11 For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts. " Mal. 1:11 (NRSV)

What verse says, as you have decided, that it has a literal meaning?

Where did God indicate that, regarding Malachi 1:11?

God indicated it by not indicating that the passage was symbolic or “spiritual” in its application. He stated the passage like it was a literal fact and it was.

 

[Achilles6129]

Thanks for repeating the passage.
What does it mean? How can the Word be a person?
I thought the Word was a book in your way of thinking…

The context makes perfectly clear that the Word is a person.

 

[PRmerger]

Because the passage is actually present tense:

"11 For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts. " Mal. 1:11 (NRSV)

Egg-zactly!

Present tense!

So that means it should be occuring in the…

present.

And yet your church does not make any pure offerings today.

My Church does, Achilles. From the rising of the sun to its setting, on every continent of this planet, from east to west, a perfect offering is being made.

At every hour of the day, a Catholic Mass is being said.

Present tense.

 

[PRmerger]

God indicated it by not indicating that the passage was symbolic or “spiritual” in its application. He stated the passage like it was a literal fact and it was.

So in John 6, when Jesus says, “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you will have no life within you”, God does not say anywhere that this passage is symbolic or “spiritual” in its application…

so we are to assume that God meant that…

literally?

 

[clem456]

The context makes perfectly clear that the Word is a person.

And?
How can the Word be a person if you believe the Word is only what it says on the paper, in the context of your own mind?

?
Are you avoiding this question?

 

[Tomdstone]

God is still required to make it clear what he’s talking about, however.

This is what confuses many when they read the Bible. Some passages are to be taken literally, while others are to be taken figuratively. Some say that 1Samuel 15:3 should not be taken literally. Or take for example, the saying in Luke 14:26 ““If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.”
I don’t know why teachings cannot be given in plain and simple easy to understand language.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know why teachings cannot be given in plain and simple easy to understand language.

That’s why we have a Church.

 

[juliamajor]

This is what confuses many when they read the Bible. Some passages are to be taken literally, while others are to be taken figuratively. Some say that 1Samuel 15:3 should not be taken literally. Or take for example, the saying in Luke 14:26 ““If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.”
I don’t know why teachings cannot be given in plain and simple easy to understand language.

Lot of confusion comes from our differences of time (ancient) and culture( eastern.) let me see if I can help you a bit.
Hate in scripture can be hatred but is often meant as love less.So what Jesus is actually saying is that unless you love him more than anything or anyone else- you cannot be a worthy disciple. Now, the people of the time would probably have known that. we don’t since hatred brings our mind different images completely.
The way things are translated from the Hebrew or Greek into English can be difficult. Some idiomatic phrases cannot be translated into words that completely convey what the meaning is.
In Hebrew hesedis said to be a quality of God that should emulated by his people. What does it mean? it is translated into English as loving-kindness but it means a lot more than that. It means compassion, forgiveness and others things. So loving-kindness is the rather weak translation into English. But how else are we to understand it except through english-since most of us don’t speak Hebrew.? That truly is a big problem-things do get lost in the translations.