How to Respond to Old Testament Violence?

[PRmerger]

Nope,

Ah. Since English is not your first language I will cut you some slack with your linguistic errors.

Not in the least. The problem with most people is that they do not look up the verse(s) and just quote from memory. And of course adding in a little unwritten commentary as they do it. It would be much easier just looking up the verse(s) and stating only what the bible really says.

I don’t disagree with you that it’s better to look up the verse than go by memory.

 

[clem456]

Why did God want
… ?

Before we assume God wanted (willed) these practices:
Maybe we can first ask
What were the mores of the time?
What was accepted out of cultural practice or just ignorance?
What assumptions were the ancient peoples working with?
Who does God reveal himself to be, now, in his fuller revelation?
If you invite Jesus “to the table”, what might he say about these practices?
Taking all that into consideration, what is the inspiration that endures in these passages?

 

[Achilles6129]

Before we assume God wanted (willed) these practices:
Maybe we can first ask
What were the mores of the time?
What was accepted out of cultural practice or just ignorance?
What assumptions were the ancient peoples working with?
Who does God reveal himself to be, now, in his fuller revelation?
If you invite Jesus “to the table”, what might he say about these practices?
Taking all that into consideration, what is the inspiration that endures in these passages?

So you’re saying that the Creator of the universe is basing his commands off of cultural peer pressure?

 

[tanachanswers]

Why did God want them to take women and children as slaves?

Would you have prefered that they be put to death ?

I understand that God wanted the Israelites to wipe out the Caananites because they were wicked people who did child sacrifice and things like that, but why did civilized people who didnt belong to the Cananite tribes and werent wicked like them, need to be wiped out and taken as slaves?

They were taken as servants because they did not lift a sword in war against Yisrael.

 

[Tomdstone]

Would you have prefered that they be put to death ?

I would prefer that these children be allowed to live a life of peace and tranquillity and as well not be enslaved by foreign slavemasters. I am opposed to the enslavement of children.

 

[tanachanswers]

I would prefer that these children be allowed to live a life of peace and tranquillity and as well not be enslaved by foreign slavemasters. I am opposed to the enslavement of children.

I see that you do not understand the concept of servitude as understood biblically.

Keep in mind The culture they lived and died in.

 

[clem456]

So you’re saying that the Creator of the universe is basing his commands off of cultural peer pressure?

Oh yes absolutely!

 

[catholictiger]

Why did God want them to take women and children as slaves? I understand that God wanted the Israelites to wipe out the Caananites because they were wicked people who did child sacrifice and things like that, but why did civilized people who didnt belong to the Cananite tribes and werent wicked like them, need to be wiped out and taken as slaves?

a few quick things.

1. we must remember the practices of the time and of their culture, it was very common when a country would conquer another country, or town or city or whatever, that the inhabitants of that area would become the slaves of another ruler.
2. They first offered those who were far off (aka nations who didn’t live in the promise land) peace this gave them the chance to surrender if they wanted to. If they refused they went to war, and killed all the men because they were a threat to the Israelites. The men and women were not threats. Because of that they didn’t kill the women as children rather they just brought them into slavery. Keep in mind if they accepted peace they would become one nation, meaning they would become jews.
3. Those who were the nations occupying the promise or holy land, had to be utterly destroyed. The reason the author of Deuteronomy commanded this is because they didn’t want the Israelites to worship false gods. Moses (who tradition holds as the author of the Pentateuch) command that so they wouldn’t worship false gods.
4. No-where does it necessitate that God is actually the one commanding the Israelites to do this. Moses is giving them the law, depending how you interpret it, God could have many different influences on Moses and giving his law.
5. I don’t think from the passage you necessarily get the idea that God commanded the Israelites to kill innocent people, rather moses speaking on God’s behalf commands it. That changes everything.

 

[Gorgias]

So you’re saying that the Creator of the universe is basing his commands off of cultural peer pressure?

LOL!

Of course not! However, let’s picture it with a concrete example: suppose that you’re trying to get your 30-year-old child to do something that they’re not inclined to do, because you know it’s the right thing to do. So, you reason with them – you explain how the thing they want to do hurts others, and how, if they are really concerned with justice for all people, they’ll reconsider their course of action. You’ll lay the whole case out for them, trusting that, in their maturity and ability to reason, they’ll do what’s right purely because it’s right.

On the other hand, suppose that you’re trying to get your 3-year-old to do something that they’re not inclined to do. Do you take the same approach as with a 30-year-old? Of course not. You match your approach to their situation in life.

Does this mean that your actions with the 3-year-old are based on ‘pressure’? Of course not. Rather, they’re based on your assessment of their ability to handle a particular approach. The more nuanced approach doesn’t have a snowball’s chance of resonating with them, so you take an approach more appropriate to their context and state in life.

Does that mean that, if you threaten the 3-year-old with a time out, you’re being unjust or sacrificing your own personal sense of justice? Of course not!

Same deal here. God isn’t being unjust in the OT; rather, He’s working with people where they are, and not requiring of them a maturity that they’re unable to attain to at the moment.

 

[PRmerger]

LOL!

Of course not! However, let’s picture it with a concrete example: suppose that you’re trying to get your 30-year-old child to do something that they’re not inclined to do, because you know it’s the right thing to do. So, you reason with them – you explain how the thing they want to do hurts others, and how, if they are really concerned with justice for all people, they’ll reconsider their course of action. You’ll lay the whole case out for them, trusting that, in their maturity and ability to reason, they’ll do what’s right purely because it’s right.

On the other hand, suppose that you’re trying to get your 3-year-old to do something that they’re not inclined to do. Do you take the same approach as with a 30-year-old? Of course not. You match your approach to their situation in life.

Does this mean that your actions with the 3-year-old are based on ‘pressure’? Of course not. Rather, they’re based on your assessment of their ability to handle a particular approach. The more nuanced approach doesn’t have a snowball’s chance of resonating with them, so you take an approach more appropriate to their context and state in life.

Does that mean that, if you threaten the 3-year-old with a time out, you’re being unjust or sacrificing your own personal sense of justice? Of course not!

Same deal here. God isn’t being unjust in the OT; rather, He’s working with people where they are, and not requiring of them a maturity that they’re unable to attain to at the moment.

Egg-zactly.

 

[Sky_River]

LOL!

Of course not! However, let’s picture it with a concrete example: suppose that you’re trying to get your 30-year-old child to do something that they’re not inclined to do, because you know it’s the right thing to do. So, you reason with them – you explain how the thing they want to do hurts others, and how, if they are really concerned with justice for all people, they’ll reconsider their course of action. You’ll lay the whole case out for them, trusting that, in their maturity and ability to reason, they’ll do what’s right purely because it’s right.

On the other hand, suppose that you’re trying to get your 3-year-old to do something that they’re not inclined to do. Do you take the same approach as with a 30-year-old? Of course not. You match your approach to their situation in life.

Does this mean that your actions with the 3-year-old are based on ‘pressure’? Of course not. Rather, they’re based on your assessment of their ability to handle a particular approach. The more nuanced approach doesn’t have a snowball’s chance of resonating with them, so you take an approach more appropriate to their context and state in life.

Does that mean that, if you threaten the 3-year-old with a time out, you’re being unjust or sacrificing your own personal sense of justice? Of course not!

Same deal here. God isn’t being unjust in the OT; rather, He’s working with people where they are, and not requiring of them a maturity that they’re unable to attain to at the moment.

How does the immaturity of the people justify or explain the violence of the OT? When God told Moses to stone the man who worked on the Sabbath, and Joshua to stone Achan, he was doing it to punish the men for his sins. The Bible doesnt say anything about Moses or Joshua being “immature”. I dont exactly understand your comparison of a 3 yr old. Elaborate.

 

[TankGirl]

How does the immaturity of the people justify or explain the violence of the OT?

It does not explain it.

When God told Moses to stone the man who worked on the Sabbath, and Joshua to stone Achan, he was doing it to punish the men for his sins.

The Bible doesnt say anything about Moses or Joshua being “immature”. I dont exactly understand your comparison of a 3 yr old. Elaborate.

I read that comparison, it doesn’t make any sense. To believe the ‘3 yr old’ comparison, you basically have to believe that God would give people 10 commandments about some pretty esoteric stuff like coveting, but would not explain the value and sanctity of human life when it really mattered. That doesn’t make any sense, at all.

It’s more likely that the ancient Israelites just did what they wanted to do, killed who they needed to kill, and told themselves after the fact that it was God’s will.

 

[Sky_River]

It does not explain it.

I read that comparison, it doesn’t make any sense. To believe the ‘3 yr old’ comparison, you basically have to believe that God would give people 10 commandments about some pretty esoteric stuff like coveting, but would not explain the value and sanctity of human life when it really mattered. That doesn’t make any sense, at all.

It’s more likely that the ancient Israelites just did what they wanted to do, killed who they needed to kill, and told themselves after the fact that it was God’s will.

Where does the text in the Bible say that God disapproved of Moses actions? Nowhere? Did God send a prophet to correct Moses like he did with David? No. God did approve of Moses violence.

 

[juliamajor]

What Tankgirl has written has truth in it. We are all victims of our culture, history and society
.Take the case in 2 Sam6:6-7
Uzzah saw the Ark falling put his hand up and God struck him down.People of the time would see at God’s anger at mixing the holy and the unholy, the sanctified and the non-sanctified.Couldn’t it have been a case that Uzzah saw the Ark falling got really upset and died from a stress induced heart attack… That would be way more plausible to us in this particular time, place, social structure and culture. More goes into scripture study than just the words.Language, history, culture, societal norms all work together to try to pry out of scripture what is really going on and how did the ancients see it?
Culture DOES determine what is considered right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable.Scripture writers were not immune to the prejudices of culture. God did not dictate word for word what the inspired writer wrote. He inspired them- He didn’t use mind control.God’s infinite knowledge filtered through human thoughts.
If culture does not control our view of God and morals than how come it was acceptable and righteous to burn or hang witches for several centuries and slowly became unacceptable and ungodly to do it.
Righteous to draw and quarter someone who went against laws Of Queens or Kings"Render to Caesar,etc"Or Paul’s “Submit to your rulers”,to seeing it as an evil,ugly inhuman barbaric way of execution.
In our own time abortion not that long ago was a universal evil.And now, depending on which church or philosophy you belong too, it is seen a a positive good.
How we see and deal with what God has said doesn’t always mean we get the message straight or that we have overcome our individual shortcoming in seeing what we want to see and hearing what we want to hear.

 

[Tomdstone]

I see that you do not understand the concept of servitude as understood biblically.

Keep in mind The culture they lived and died in.

Regardless of culture, I think that child slavery is wrong. I don’t care how you try to sugarcoat it. I am opposed to the enslavement of children.

 

[juliamajor]

Regardless of culture, I think that child slavery is wrong. I don’t care how you try to sugarcoat it. I am opposed to the enslavement of children.

Good for you . That doesn’t mean it wasn’t acceptable to a myriad of cultures and many people in the ancient world were born into it…
In early 2oth century in textile mills they had little children labouring 16 hours a day, gave them lousy pay and put them in dangerous and deadly situations. They called that capitalism. Which was very acceptable. Was that moral in our eyes? No but at the time period it was and little by little we evolved past that until it became unacceptable.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Departed from topic and closed.