How to respond to SSPX followers

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I wasn’t. I wasn’t talking about the fssp (which I hope to join one day). I was talking about the Society of Saint Pious the tenth. They are as far as I know heretics.
The SSPX are not heretics. The SSPX are Catholics. Their society is without canonical status within the Church, but they are most certainly not heretical. Indeed in his letter annoucing the Year of Mercy, Pope Francis talks about the “Good faith and good sacramental practice” of the SSPX and has given SSPX priests the faculties to validly and licitly administer the sacrament of Confession during the Year of Mercy.

The comments on this thread denouncing the SSPX as pharisees and sadducees are not charitable at all. Yes, there may still be some issues with certain individual clergy within the SSPX, but on the other hand, in the mainstream Church there may also be some issues with certain individual clergy taking very liberal positions that contradict Church teaching. Does that mean that the mainstream Church ought to be branded as heretical? Of course not.

Should Catholics attend SSPX Masses? That is a difficult question, and there are conflicting opinions on that, but I have decided not to do so (and have been advised accordingly by a good priest whose advice I trust). But calling them pharisees, sadducees, and heretics is way over the top and very unfair.
 
FSSPX (sometimes called SSPX) - not full communion, but not heretical
What is meant by not in full communion? Surely you are either in communion with the Church or you are not? Could a person be not fully married or not fully pregnant, yet still not be not married, or not pregnant?

Is there any definitive Church teaching that this ‘in-between’ status of ‘not in full communion’ actually exists? Does this term even exist in Canon Law? Or has it just been thought up in order to describe the rather awkward relationship that exists between the Church and the SSPX?
 
The comments on this thread denouncing the SSPX as pharisees and sadducees are not charitable at all. Yes, there may still be some issues with certain individual clergy within the SSPX, but on the other hand, in the mainstream Church there may also be some issues with certain individual clergy taking very liberal positions that contradict Church teaching. Does that mean that the mainstream Church ought to be branded as heretical? Of course not.
I completely agree. If we reject them, logically the only thing they can do in return is reject us. That doesn’t help anybody.

Also, not that I’m taking their side, at least some of them are simply concerned that disciplines, practices and a liturgy they totally believe in are in danger of being lost. Demonstrating that their fears are unfounded can only help the cause. A little flexibility with them might accomplish wonders.
Should Catholics attend SSPX Masses? That is a difficult question, and there are conflicting opinions on that, but I have decided not to do so (and have been advised accordingly by a good priest whose advice I trust).
I’m with you. Frankly, even if my FSSP priest gave permission (which he explicitly didn’t when the subject came up on one occasion), I probably wouldn’t go anyway. Some bishops are supposedly supportive of the faithful visiting SSPX chapels and receiving.
 
From the moment when Blessed Paul VI intervened and stripped them of their ministry for their lack of submission to him as Vicar of Christ in 1976, because they disobeyed a direct command from the Successor of Peter, they could have returned to communion with Rome…a communion they ruptured by gross and flagrant disobedience.

We pray that they return to communion with Rome. They’ve persisted in this state for more than 40 years. EWTN has a summary of the Society’s history; I add a few underscores of special importance.
*The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX)

The Society was founded in 1970 by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, a retired missionary bishop who had served in Africa, in order to perpetuate the traditional liturgical rites of the Church. The previous year Blessed Paul VI had introduced a new missal in response to the liturgical reform called for by the Second Vatican Council. Reformed rites of the other sacraments would follow in the years following.

While Archbishop Lefebvre did not reject the possibility of reforming the sacramental rites (he had voted for the Council document that called for it), he did reject the specific reforms of the Mass promulgated in 1969 in the Missal of Paul VI. For this reason, the Society he founded uses the 1962 Missal and the other sacramental ritual books of that era.

In 1971 Archbishop Lefebvre started a seminary in Ecône, Switzerland, to train priests for the Society. Despite being specifically warned by the Pope not to ordain them, the Archbishop ordained the first ones to the priesthood in 1976. Those ordinations were valid, but illicit. Pope Paul VI immediately suspended the Archbishop’s priestly faculties, and those of the men he had ordained. Those suspensions remain effective, and apply to all new ordinands of the Society, until such time as the Holy See regularizes the status of the SSPX and its clergy.

In 1989, Archbishop Lefebvre, now fearing that he would die and leave no one to ordain priests for the SSPX, sought an agreement with the Holy See for the lawful continuation of the Society. After reaching an agreement with Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, acting for Pope St. John Paul II, Archbishop Lefebvre broke the agreement and, in an act which was ipso facto schismatic, ordained 4 bishops without a papal mandate. This action incurred an automatic excommunication under canon 1387, confirmed a few days later by Decree of the Holy See. Twenty years later (January 2009), as part of another effort at reconciliation on the part of Rome, Pope Benedict XVI lifted these excommunications. Despite this, to date reconciliation has not been achieved.

Therefore, until the status of the SSPX is regularized by the Holy See, the bishops and priests of the Society remain suspended from the exercise of Holy Orders. Their celebration of the sacraments are valid but illicit, except for those sacraments requiring jurisdiction (Penance, Marriage), which are both invalid and illicit. This means that sacramental absolution by a Society priest is invalid for lack of jurisdiction, a requirement in all circumstances but the danger of death (canon 976). Similarly, lacking jurisdiction, marriages witnessed by SSPX clergy would also be invalid, for defect of the “Catholic form”, which requires witnessing by one’s bishop or proper pastor or a dispensations for other circumstances (canon 1108)

Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP)

In the circumstances of the 1989 episcopal ordinations, some SSPX clergy and seminarians, not wanting to go into schism, sought an agreement with the Holy See. This request resulted in the founding of the Sacerdotal (Priestly) Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP)

ewtn.com/expert/answers/sspx_fssp.htm*
Pope Benedict explains the history of the Motu Proprio of his predecessor:
*At the time, the Pope primarily wanted to assist the Society of Saint Pius X to recover full unity with the Successor of Peter, and sought to heal a wound experienced ever more painfully. Unfortunately this reconciliation has not yet come about.

I now come to the positive reason which motivated my decision to issue this Motu Proprio updating that of 1988. It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church. Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church’s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden. This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today: to make every effort to enable for all those who truly desire unity to remain in that unity or to attain it anew.

Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books. The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.

Each Bishop, in fact, is the moderator of the liturgy in his own Diocese. Nothing is taken away, then, from the authority of the Bishop, whose role remains that of being watchful that all is done in peace and serenity. Should some problem arise which the parish priest cannot resolve, the local Ordinary will always be able to intervene, in full harmony, however, with all that has been laid down by the new norms of the Motu Proprio.

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html*
 
Don Ruggero’s post sums up the situation, from the Church’s standpoint. I just wanted to reiterate a section from the passage he quoted, and rightly underscored:

“This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today: to make every effort to enable for all those who truly desire unity to remain in that unity or to attain it anew.”

Perhaps the biggest single factor holding laity (I don’t know about clergy) in attachment to the SSPX is the perception they are under attack by the Catholic Church. This is repeated constantly on the internet, and possibly in at least some chapels. In my diocese, the SSPX chapel began in the 1970s in response to abuses in the diocese, and the absence of TLM. Today the abuses are much reduced. There are 2 TLM’s close to the chapel, but the chapel goes on, it has a momentum of its own. Every time a negative remark is made in person or on the internet against the SSPX, that is one more reason to “stay inside the fort.”

With 40-some years of momentum, I do not think the SSPX will ever, as an organization, merge into the Catholic Church. I think there are moderate individuals who will come in, if they feel welcome in orthodox parishes and accepted as individuals, rather than being stereotyped as one of “those people”. The need to be involved in unity for prolife and religious liberty may help bring them in.

I think there are other individuals who are caught up in the momentum of the SSPX organization, and that is, in fact, their church. Don’t judge them. They may or may not come in, when they are ready.
 
the “Society of Saint Pius V” is a smallish group of outspoken, heretical sedevacantists. NOT to be confused with the Society of Saint Pius X.
I ask in general ignorance of the SSPV: Are they really an heretical group? Based on what I’ve heard, they sound schismatic in that they have wholesale rejected the current Catholic hierarchy under the leadership of recent Popes (whom they don’t believe to be Popes), but I’ve never heard about them espousing doctrinal heresy (though I could be wrong).
 
I’d imagine Diocese directly or the FSSP hold more Latin masses than either SSPX or SSPV given that various Dioceses and also FSSP being in communion with Rome and the wider Catholic Church have access to the resources, both direct and indirect, that come with that.
There are also societies such as ICRSS and SJC which hold and even teach Latin Masses. And as you point out there are some diocesan priests who say the EF at least some of the time.

AFAIK, there are also some “independent” chapels which employ priests, but I don’t have a number on these.
 
In my diocese, the SSPX chapel began in the 1970s in response to abuses in the diocese, and the absence of TLM.
Yes. I’m no sociologist but I see that there has been a full generation or two now which have supported the FSSPX financially and in other ways, and probably are not likely to turn over their chapels, schools, nursing homes, etc. to the diocese even though most of them at least want to be called Catholics. I think a personal prelature has been suggested so let’s see where that goes.
 
Yes. I’m no sociologist but I see that there has been a full generation or two now which have supported the FSSPX financially and in other ways, and probably are not likely to turn over their chapels, schools, nursing homes, etc. to the diocese even though most of them at least want to be called Catholics. I think a personal prelature has been suggested so let’s see where that goes.
The SSPX never asks supporters to wait a decade or two. There is always a “possible” on the near horizon: personal prelature soon? Ordinariate maybe in 6 months? Rumors the Vatican is about to, very soon, issue a document reconsidering Vatican II? An interview from some bishop (out of 2000 bishops) who said it is soon time to open the door to the SSPX as an intact organization?
Every year they will produce another interview, showing things are nearing a breakthrough. So let’s see where that goes.

Alongside that, the message is constantly, don’t trust the Vatican yet, there are countless enemies among the bishops and certain anonymous cardinals lurking in secret places ready to undermine the Catholic Faith if we surrender, leave our SSPX fort, and come into the Church as individuals. The whole message of the websites is to keep people inside the fort - but keep them hopeful a solution will soon appear, if we are patient for 6 months or so.

This has gone on for 40 years. It will likely go on for another 40 years. That is why **our **focus should be on families, not the organization. Their focus is about preserving the organization, not the TLM, Vatican II, or abuses.
 
This has gone on for 40 years.
Not the personal prelature idea, but this idea, like all ideas, needs time to assimilate into the mindset to work. But again I’m no sociologist to predict its final destiny. Who envisioned the Anglican Ordinariate 15 years ago with their own bishop, for example?
 
A personal prelature is a stupid and redundant idea. Here’s why:
  1. Those who attend SSPX chapels to receive the Sacraments are Catholics. Those who administer the Sacraments within the Society of Saint Pius X are Catholic priests and bishops. The Anglican Ordinate was created to streamline the process of bringing Anglicans (non-Catholics) into the fold.
  2. The FSSP was founded as a canonical alternative to the SSPX. I’m sure that if any priest wished to leave the SSPX and join another society or diocese there would not be much of an issue.
  3. A diocesan bishop reserves the right to reinstate a priest’s ministry. In several dioceses around the world the SSPX clergy operate with full authority of the local ordinary.
The society just needs to be regularized as a whole. It’s a big issue of pride between Rome and Bishop Fellay, but I pray it can be reconciled in a timely manner.
 
A personal prelature is a stupid and redundant idea. Here’s why:
  1. Those who attend SSPX chapels to receive the Sacraments are Catholics. Those who administer the Sacraments within the Society of Saint Pius X are Catholic priests and bishops. The Anglican Ordinate was created to streamline the process of bringing Anglicans (non-Catholics) into the fold.
  2. The FSSP was founded as a canonical alternative to the SSPX. I’m sure that if any priest wished to leave the SSPX and join another society or diocese there would not be much of an issue.
**3. A diocesan bishop reserves the right to reinstate a priest’s ministry. In several dioceses around the world the SSPX clergy operate with full authority of the local ordinary. **

The society just needs to be regularized as a whole. It’s a big issue of pride between Rome and Bishop Fellay, but I pray it can be reconciled in a timely manner.
Interesting, so there are SSPX congregations out there where the priest is fully licit due to diocesean bishop approval?
 
I know there are many radical traditionalist on the internet, and I would like to know how to respond to them. How should I respond to claims that the current pope is an anti-pope and that the Novus Ordo is invalid?

Thanks
1st PRAYER

Only the Holy Spirit can soften a HARD heart and a hard head:)

You might try making an ISSUE of now Saint Pope John Paul II.

The process for being declared a Saint requires at least ONE Miracle, independently verified and confirmed. [TWO is the NORM] and miracles are GOD"S stamp of approval on that person being in heaven and beinf declared a SAINT.👍

IF, as they hold JP II was NOT God’s CHOSEN by the HS, choice for Pope, than certainty God would NOT have approved his Sainthood.🙂

Let them ponder that reality:D

BUT do so with charity:thumbsup:

Easter Blessings,
Patrick
 
Interesting, so there are SSPX congregations out there where the priest is fully licit due to diocesean bishop approval?
Yes. The Archdiocese of Buenos Aires regularized the activities of the Society of Saint Pius X. I believe there is another one in Italy that has done something similar, but those are all I can think of off the top of my head.
 
1st PRAYER

Only the Holy Spirit can soften a HARD heart and a hard head:)

You might try making an ISSUE of now Saint Pope John Paul II.

The process for being declared a Saint requires at least ONE Miracle, independently verified and confirmed. [TWO is the NORM] and miracles are GOD"S stamp of approval on that person being in heaven and beinf declared a SAINT.👍

IF, as they hold JP II was NOT God’s CHOSEN by the HS, choice for Pope, than certainty God would NOT have approved his Sainthood.🙂

Let them ponder that reality:D

BUT do so with charity:thumbsup:

Easter Blessings,
Patrick
Just because someone goes to Heaven does not mean they are free of error. Pope John Paul II was no champion of orthodoxy (though I will admit ordinatio sacerdotalis was AWESOME!)… but as the Church declared, he was saved and is now one with God in Heaven. No Catholic, SSPX or otherwise, would argue the validity of a canonization, even if he or she disagrees with it.

Also, please note that no miracles are needed for canonization. The Pope can sporadically declare someone a Saint, no investigation necessary. In the earliest days of Christianity, martyrs and confessors were hailed as saints by public acclaim.
 
The March of Dimes was started as a temporary agency, to find a vaccine for Polio. It’s still around. There are a few government offices in my area that were established on a temporary basis to meet a specific purpose. They’re still around, they found new purposes. They will always find new purposes.

The history of religion has a few movements designed for a particular need - “we’re still Catholic…” but for the time being they need to be independent, pending resolution or clarification of some concerns in the main body. These denominations are still around.
 
The Holy Spirit does not pick the pope.

Here is Fr. Vincent Serpa’s response to my question about that:
The only protection that the Church teaches regarding the leadership of the Church is that the Holy Spirit will protect the Church teaching error regarding faith and morals. It does not teach that the Holy Spirit chooses the pope. That is left to the cardinals. This is why they pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. History shows us that we have had some popes who were poor leaders and morally corrupt.
 
The Pope can sporadically declare someone a Saint, no investigation necessary. In the earliest days of Christianity, martyrs and confessors were hailed as saints by public acclaim.
I have always understood that martyrs are automatically saints in Heaven on account of their martyrdom. The thousands of Christians being killed today by ISIS and Boko Haram etc. because of their faith are, as I understand it, saints.
 
SSPX don’t follow the authority of the Pope or an Ecumenical Council, so in the correct sense of the word, there is nothing Traditional about them. The society are innovators by design. They are often perceived as “traditional” because of their commitment to reverent liturgy and zeal towards longstanding devotions, etc, and are highly sensitive to certain abuses that exist (or other things that are orthodox yet they dislike anyway).

Based on your friend’s dramatized behavior, you would be trying to reason him out of something that he didn’t - or at least so it seems - reason himself into. Pray for him and answer one question at a time as they come out. Some conversions are a matter of gaining knowledge, like a seed that is just waiting to have water splashed on it, but most are a battle of the heart. Let him see, “Hey, this person is fully on board with the Holy Father, and look how devout he is.” He needs affirmation that Catholics are strong in God. He might have had bad experiences in the Church that pulled him down this path.

The SSPX position will continue to weaken (though it never had any merit to start with) as canonized saints continue to be raised up, martyrs continue to glorify God with their blood, and nations are continually converted, especially in Africa and Asia. God didn’t hang up his sword after 1962. His conquest of love continues.
 
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