How to respond to, "the thief on the cross"

[Mystic_Faith]

Hello all,

Please bare with me as I am not sure if this has been posted in the correct forum. Admins, please feel free to move this thread if necessary. Thank in advance.

I often have the opportunity to discuss with friends, and co workers about salvation., being saved by faith alone, or faith and works. Being a devout Catholic in a rather Catholic hostile area ( I am in the Bible Belt, and mostly spar with Evangelicals.) I do not have a good counter to the arguement of the “thief on the cross who was saved by his faith alone”

So that I can better understand, and better explain the Catholic position, please help me to provide some counter arguements to this question.

Thank you to everyone who chooses to participate.

God Bless You all!

 

[Cristiano]

Hello all,

Please bare with me as I am not sure if this has been posted in the correct forum. Admins, please feel free to move this thread if necessary. Thank in advance.

I often have the opportunity to discuss with friends, and co workers about salvation., being saved by faith alone, or faith and works. Being a devout Catholic in a rather Catholic hostile area ( I am in the Bible Belt, and mostly spar with Evangelicals.) I do not have a good counter to the arguement of the “thief on the cross who was saved by his faith alone”

So that I can better understand, and better explain the Catholic position, please help me to provide some counter arguements to this question.

Thank you to everyone who chooses to participate.

God Bless You all!

Would anyone say that trying to correct the other thief on the cross is not a spiritual work of mercy as in “admonish sinners” and “instruct the ignorant”?

 

[Incomplete]

I might be wrong, but I read this as proving Catholic teachings. We don’t say, for example, that anybody goes to hell. (We don’t say hell is empty, we just can’t say who’s there.) Because no matter how bad someone may be, no matter how evil they may appear, no matter how much they turned from God, we don’t know their hearts at the very end.

The thief proved that as long as we have breath, it is not too late to turn to God.

However, remember in the Gospels, Jesus talking about judgement and that whole thing about “When did I see you hungry and feed you”… and that whole section? Nothing is said there about faith. Not a word.

It’s both/and. Can God grant you salvation at anytime? Of course. Did Jesus ever preach “faith alone?” No.

That’s why we look to the entirety of Scripture, not just an isolated event. If you know what God wants and you refuse to do it, “faith alone” will get you nowhere. Because then you are truly rejecting God.

 

[Glomung]

I’m a newcomer here, but will put in my 2 cents.

It can be easily assumed that the thiefs’ “work” was the act of believing in and of itself, especially noting the circumstances.

"Would anyone say that trying to correct the other thief on the cross is not a spiritual work of mercy as in “admonish sinners” and “instruct the ignorant”? "

Most certainly!

 

[TimothyH]

The thief on the cross was saved by Jesus Christ, by God, not by his own faith. We are saved by Jesus, not by our faith or our works.

But the theif on the cross did make a public act of faith in Jesus as God, which, if he had been an ordinary person, would have caused his complete ostracization from all aspects of Jewish society includnig his friends and family. Glomung in his post above is correct. the thief’s act of faith would not have been like an act of faith today, where we accept Jesus, everyone smiles and pats you on the back, and then invites you to Church.

We think of accepting Jesus in these modern Evangelical terms. But for someone back then to confess that Jesus was Lord had huge consequences for their personal life. To confess Jesus as Lord was to renounce the authority of the Jewish Council of the Sanhedrin and the Roman Emperor, both of which had the power of life and death over you. Devout Jews would have seperated themselves from you, as was required by the mosaic law. It was like renouncing your citizenship. Remember that Christ is a king. That is how he revealed himself to us.

The Evangelicals can sat that the thief was saved by his faith, but that ignores the very real consequences of the actions of regular people who confessed Jesus as Lord. It wasn’t like we think today.

…and all without quoting a single verse of scripture. That frustrates them.

-Tim-

 

[fhansen]

Hello all,

Please bare with me as I am not sure if this has been posted in the correct forum. Admins, please feel free to move this thread if necessary. Thank in advance.

I often have the opportunity to discuss with friends, and co workers about salvation., being saved by faith alone, or faith and works. Being a devout Catholic in a rather Catholic hostile area ( I am in the Bible Belt, and mostly spar with Evangelicals.) I do not have a good counter to the arguement of the “thief on the cross who was saved by his faith alone”

So that I can better understand, and better explain the Catholic position, please help me to provide some counter arguements to this question.

Thank you to everyone who chooses to participate.

God Bless You all!

Both criminals had the opportunity to respond to Jesus-God in their midst. God expects us to respond to Him in faith firstly, which means our wills are involved. But our response must move even further-beyond mere faith- if we have the opportunity. Otherwise that faith is dead. Consider Luke 12:48:

From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Or consider the Parable of the Talents. We’re judged on what we do with what we’re given. Suppose the thief had been freed from the cross and allowed to live longer. And suppose he did nothing more than “believe on Jesus” as they say, for his salvation, even though he had the opportunity to grow in and express love for his neighbor. At the end of his life God will say:

‘**Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matt 25:31-46**

Some will “spiritualize” these verses, maintaining that they do those things by feeding others the Word of God, their own twisted interpretation of it anyway, bringing to mind Mat 7:21-23:

** 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’**

 

[Spencerian]

I might be wrong, but I read this as proving Catholic teachings. We don’t say, for example, that anybody goes to hell. (We don’t say hell is empty, we just can’t say who’s there.) Because no matter how bad someone may be, no matter how evil they may appear, no matter how much they turned from God, we don’t know their hearts at the very end.

The thief proved that as long as we have breath, it is not too late to turn to God.

However, remember in the Gospels, Jesus talking about judgement and that whole thing about “When did I see you hungry and feed you”… and that whole section? Nothing is said there about faith. Not a word.

It’s both/and. Can God grant you salvation at anytime? Of course. Did Jesus ever preach “faith alone?” No.

That’s why we look to the entirety of Scripture, not just an isolated event. If you know what God wants and you refuse to do it, “faith alone” will get you nowhere. Because then you are truly rejecting God.

An excellent explanation.

You can also use, in contrast, the second thief, the one on the left, who challenges Jesus and does not repent. He clings to his last moments of life in defiance and anger at the man in the center, who, if his claim to be God was correct, should be saving them all from death.

Does Christ offer the angry thief any hope in the afterlife? We do not know. As to the thief on the right, the key is not Christ’s words to him about paradise, but how the man first showed contrition for his own deeds but *then asked Christ for hope at the end of his life. Both the act of contrition and asking for mercy require a person to work their lips–to make the sounds, to make the thoughts, to motion to God. OSAS has a passivity that belies the work that God places in us on our baptism, not just to spread the Gospel, but to spread his love. *

OSAS makes the sin of presumption–that Christ automatically will take mercy on us just because we call out his name and appreciate his teachings, yet do not practice them. Christ warns against this in his “Not everyone who cries, ‘Lord, Lord’” message as well as several warnings about how the hypocritical Pharisees behaved, preaching but not practicing.

 

[Barbkw]

Would anyone say that trying to correct the other thief on the cross is not a spiritual work of mercy as in “admonish sinners” and “instruct the ignorant”?

The repentant thief was nailed to a cross. And even from there, he admonished the unrepentant thief and then expressed his belief that Jesus was the Son of God.

Readers shouldn’t be so selective in developing their theology on Sacred Scripture.

Jesus also said, “Your faith has healed you, go…and sin no more.”

He said, “If you do not forgive men their sins, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive your sins.”

And He said, “Come, enter the Kingdom. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was sick and you visited me.”

Then Jesus will turn to those on His left hand and say, “Depart from me because I was hungry and you did not feed me, I was thirsty and you did not give me to drink, I was sick and you did not visit me.”

These will ask Him, “When did we see You hungry, or thirsty or sick and did not come to Your help?”

And Jesus will answer them, “Whatever you neglected to do unto one of these least of these, you neglected to do unto Me!”

 

[fisherman_carl]

Hello all,

Please bare with me as I am not sure if this has been posted in the correct forum. Admins, please feel free to move this thread if necessary. Thank in advance.

I often have the opportunity to discuss with friends, and co workers about salvation., being saved by faith alone, or faith and works. Being a devout Catholic in a rather Catholic hostile area ( I am in the Bible Belt, and mostly spar with Evangelicals.) I do not have a good counter to the arguement of the “thief on the cross who was saved by his faith alone”

So that I can better understand, and better explain the Catholic position, please help me to provide some counter arguements to this question.

Thank you to everyone who chooses to participate.

God Bless You all!

This is a good question. Yesterday on ‘Open Line’, Colin Donovan responded to this very remark when talking about the necessity of baptism. He said that God is sovereign and therefore can choose to save anyone how it pleases him. However, the normal means of salvation is through baptism. If by grace you have the necessary faith, repentance and baptism God justifies you. This is the normal means. However, God does not expect the impossible from us. Therefore God is not bound by the sacraments. He can choose to save us in an extraordinary means. The thief on the cross could be considered an extraordinary means.

However, it’s one thing to admit that God can save us outside of the sacraments. And, its another thing to base one’s ordinary means of salvation from an extraordinary occurence. The bible is plain on the necessity of baptism.

Here are a few bible verses that show baptism is for salvation.

• ‘baptism now saves you’ - 1 Pt 3:21- As Noah was saved through water - it is not merely a washing of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clean conscience.
• unless we are baptized, ‘water and Spirit’, we can not enter the kingdom of God - Jn 3:5
• ‘He who believes AND is baptized will be saved’ - Mk 16:16
• In baptism our sins are forgiven - - 1 Pt 3:21 (appeal for a clean conscience) and Acts 22:16
• Peter preaches repentance and baptism and then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
• Philip and the Eunuch (Acts 8). Once Philip finished preaching the Eunuch said look there is WATER, what is to prevent my being baptized? This shows biblical baptism involves water, not just a spiritual thing.
• In baptism we die with Christ so that we might be raised with him to newness of life - Rom 6:4

Want more scriptures? See -http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html

 

[Cristiano]

The repentant thief was nailed to a cross. And even from there, he admonished the unrepentant thief and then expressed his belief that Jesus was the Son of God.

Readers shouldn’t be so selective in developing their theology on Sacred Scripture.…

It looks like we agree but I do not understand at all your comment that I put in a bold font. Would you please elaborate a little bit on it? Are you referring to an exegesis as function of a theology instead of having a theology consistent with an hermeneutics coming from a magisterial authority?

 

[fisherman_carl]

Eph 2:8 - “it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith, and not by works, so that no man can boast.”

This is often used to justify faith alone. Catholic teaching affirms Eph 2:8. We are saved by grace from start to finish. No one will be able to stand before God and boast about anything they have done in order to gain access into heaven. That would be of course the sin of pride. Rather, we are saved by God’s grace as a gift as Eph 2:8-9 states. We don’t merit the sanctifying grace we receive at baptism. It is given to us. Also, the faith that we have is given to us by grace.

“and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.”
(Council of Trent on Justification, ch VIII)

But, does God just give us faith alone? No. God instills us with his divine life in us. The Holy Spirit indwells us with sanctifying grace and we are moved to not only faith but also charity and hope as well. St. Paul says that charity is greater than faith (1 Cor 13). Does God isolate faith from charity and hope? He is not dissecting his gift to us. Rather his gift in us bears fruit and we produce the fruit of works (fruit of repentance). And, these works are what God judges us by.

“[God] who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”
(Rom 2:6-8)

So, just as faith is a gift of grace, so is works. For Christ has said that ‘apart from him we can do nothing.’ Thus, we can not save ourselves. It is a gift of God’s grace working in us. Thus, we can not boast before God. The works we do in grace are what God has purposed for us in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:10).

“For if a man who is very good takes the credit for his goodness he becomes correspondingly evil. For this is a very evil thing. If anyone says “Far be it from me! I know that it is by the grace of God I am what I am (1 Cor 15:10),” and then is careful to take a little of the glory for the favor he has received, is he not a thief and a robber (Jn 10:1)? Such a man will hear these words: “Out of your own mouth I judge you, wicked servant (Lk. 19:22).” What is more wicked than for a servant to usurp the glory due his master?” (Bernard, “The Fulfillment of All Desire”, p 226)

“It is grace that comes through faith that empowers us to do the works. In that sense we are dependent on the grace of God not only to strengthen us in faith, but in works also.” (“The Fulfillment of All Desire”, p 228)

"For this I labor and struggle, in accord with the exercise of his power working within me. (Col 1:29)

 

[Barbkw]

It looks like we agree but I do not understand at all your comment that I put in a bold font. Would you please elaborate a little bit on it? Are you referring to an exegesis as function of a theology instead of having a theology consistent with an hermeneutics coming from a magisterial authority?

I’m sure you’ve noticed that protestant denominations selectively take a passage and say, “Ah, ha …saved by faith” to the exclusion of ten other passages that also say we are saved by grace and by works.

In the case of the thief on the cross, through Jesus’ mercy and grace, he was saved by his repentance and his faith in Jesus. The other thief wasn’t repentant nor did he believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

 

[Cristiano]

I’m sure you’ve noticed that protestant denominations selectively take a passage and say, “Ah, ha …saved by faith” to the exclusion of ten other passages that also say we are saved by grace and by works.

In the case of the thief on the cross, through Jesus’ mercy and grace, he was saved by his repentance and his faith in Jesus. The other thief wasn’t repentant nor did he believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

Thanks for the reply, now I understand what your point was about.

My beef with the statements about the thief being saved by faith alone is that he did plenty of faith based works. He recognized Jesus as “God, the lamb of God”, he admonished the other thief, but he actively worked on accepting Jesus saving grace by saying “Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom”. So he did not only believed that Jesus is God but he had an active faith in Him through his own actions. My own personal impression is that the other thief believed that Jesus was God too, and that is why he expressed his anger; however, he did not act (doing the work) to accept the graces that flow through faith.

 

[Mark1124]

Matthew 20:1-16:

“The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with them for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard. Going out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and he said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard, and I will give you what is just.’ So they went off. (And) he went out again around noon, and around three o’clock, and did likewise. Going out about five o’clock, he found others standing around, and said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They answered, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard.’ When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Summon the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and ending with the first.’ When those who had started about five o’clock came, each received the usual daily wage. So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more, but each of them also got the usual wage. And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, saying, ‘These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the day’s burden and the heat.’ He said to one of them in reply, ‘My friend, I am not cheating you. Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? Take what is yours and go. What if I wish to give this last one the same as you? (Or) am I not free to do as I wish with my own money? Are you envious because I am generous?’ Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

The thief may have only worked in the vineyard for an hour, but he is still paid as if he had worked for his whole life. If he hadn’t done any work, he wouldn’t have been paid.

 

[thistle]

Hello all,

Please bare with me as I am not sure if this has been posted in the correct forum. Admins, please feel free to move this thread if necessary. Thank in advance.

I often have the opportunity to discuss with friends, and co workers about salvation., being saved by faith alone, or faith and works. Being a devout Catholic in a rather Catholic hostile area ( I am in the Bible Belt, and mostly spar with Evangelicals.) I do not have a good counter to the arguement of the “thief on the cross who was saved by his faith alone”

So that I can better understand, and better explain the Catholic position, please help me to provide some counter arguements to this question.

Thank you to everyone who chooses to participate.

God Bless You all!

First example of Baptism of Desire.

 

[ProVobis]

I read a banner once at a university chapel that went like this:

“We all assume the one thief went to heaven.
Can we presume the other one didn’t?”

By the way, I think Mark1124’s reference is spot on.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

I was just thinking, maybe consider this in light of the parable of the workers in the field, where the ones who come right before quitting time get the same pay as the ones who work the whole day. It doesn’t matter when in life one comes to Christ; everyone who asks for it gets a “full measure” of God’s love and mercy, whether they have been faithful followers from childhood, or come to Christ at the moment of death. Naturally the life-long follower has much more opportunity to live a Christian life, but in terms of God’s mercy, he doesn’t go halfway with you just because you spent most of your life in immorality.

 

[fhansen]

I was just thinking, maybe consider this in light of the parable of the workers in the field, where the ones who come right before quitting time get the same pay as the ones who work the whole day. It doesn’t matter when in life one comes to Christ; everyone who asks for it gets a “full measure” of God’s love and mercy, whether they have been faithful followers from childhood, or come to Christ at the moment of death. Naturally the life-long follower has much more opportunity to live a Christian life, but in terms of God’s mercy, he doesn’t go halfway with you just because you spent most of your life in immorality.

Good point!

 

[Jaypeeto4]

The Salvation of Saint Dismas is also, contrary to protestant assertions,
PROOF of the Catholic principle of PURGATION and purgatory as a place of that
for those who have not been purged (or the equivalent of, through indulgences)
in THIS life.
Consider where the good bandit WAS:
when he repented and defended Christ and asked Christ to remember him,
he was NAILED TO A CROSS in horrible pain. He was being purged of his sins,
even though the Law of God did NOT require the execution of mere thieves.
Thus, his claim that he “deserved” what was happening to him not only indicated
great humility on his part here, but also indicated that DISMAS was no
mere “thief,” as most bibles mistranslate it,
but rather a very brutal and violent brigand and bandit.
No Jew would ever have said that he himself “deserved” the horrific death
of crucifixion merely for having stolen some things. The “good thief” HAD BEEN
a REALLY BAD guy. And his Purgatory was in this life, on a cross, and his
baptism was both of desire and of blood.
I wonder how many of us “throw the book at 'em” Catholics of the 20th Century,
had we been standing there admiring Jesus at the foot of his cross,
would have lovingly agreed to his kind words of mercy to this brutal and thieving
repentant criminal? It’s easy to love a character in a book. It’s a lot harder
to be Christ-like in practice.
For example, I admire Saint Dismas, brutal and evil as he had been.
But in 1986, my beloved, sweet, tenderhearted Mother was violently mugged.
The guy who stole her purse caused her to fall and bust up her face.
I was not even an true Christian then, and had I caught the guy, I would have
beaten him to death for doing that to my little mom.
I have to remember that Saint Dismas was EVEN WORSE than that guy!!!
So, I have to forgive this thug for brutalizing my precious mom.
Is it easy? Heck no, it’s not easy, it’s VERY hard. I still bitterly resent what he did
to her. I would have been outraged to hear Jesus promise this guy paradise after he
victimized my mom violently. But you know what? I - and everybody who hopes to attain heaven - HAS TO forgive this thug from the heart, or we won’t be saved ourselves.
And we have to actually WISH the thug WELL. **Not merely forgive so that we won’t
carry around bitterness. That kind of forgiveness, promoted by OPRAH WINFREY types,
is selfish forgiveness, not Godlike forgiveness.**Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[JimmytheButcher]

Hello all,

Please bare with me as I am not sure if this has been posted in the correct forum. Admins, please feel free to move this thread if necessary. Thank in advance.

I often have the opportunity to discuss with friends, and co workers about salvation., being saved by faith alone, or faith and works. Being a devout Catholic in a rather Catholic hostile area ( I am in the Bible Belt, and mostly spar with Evangelicals.) I do not have a good counter to the arguement of the “thief on the cross who was saved by his faith alone”

So that I can better understand, and better explain the Catholic position, please help me to provide some counter arguements to this question.

Thank you to everyone who chooses to participate.

God Bless You all!

The Good Thief was saved because he was Face to Face with God with Mary in His proximity. Strictly speaking, the virtue of faith as soon as one is seeing Jesus in person ceases to be faith.

This is partly why the Eucharist is a sacrament and not just a mere symbol; because Jesus, although truly present is not discernable to the senses.

Faith presupposes action. Without action it is not faith. The greatest exercise of Faith that one can undertake is devotion to Mary and the Blessed Sacrament. This is the Faith that saves.

It is worth re-iterating Mary was standing next to the Good Thief and surely had pity on Him begging Her Son to exercise His Mercy. She is the Consecrated Gate of Heaven. felix coeli porta. And, the Good Thief became like unto Christ in his own passion, being crucified with Christ as Paul tells us. (suffer with Christ).