Exactly. Could you post which claims from the website interest you?I attempted to click the link, but was told access was restricted to only members of the website.
Oh, sorry. I didn’t realize that. :doh2: Here’s what I’ve been wondering about.I attempted to click the link, but was told access was restricted to only members of the website.
Imagine the person you love the most in the world, maybe a friend, relative, parent, spouse, or child. Now imagine them dying a painful death. Picture yourself standing nearby, with the power to save them. What would you do? You would save them of course. But God, even if he does exist, who supposedly loves us more than anyone on Earth, does nothing. Hundreds of thousands of his “children” die painful deaths and suffer beyond belief every day, and this loving God does nothing. A Christian might say that this life is only temporary, and that we give it up for a blissful eternity. But if Christianity is true, then only about thirty percent of the world will go to heaven. The other seventy percent will receive an eternity of agony burning in flames, simply for not believing in the Christian God.
Some theists have told me that God gave us free will. But how can we have free will if God knows everything? Does he not have a plan for each one of us that he, being omniscient, know every detail of? Does he not know every single choice we will ever make before we make it? So can’t we only make choices under the assumption that if God is all knowing, doesn’t he already know we’re going to make them? And if so, would it really be “just” to send unbelievers to eternal torture for choices that he already knew about, planned for, and apparently did nothing about?
Even if God is not pre-determining or pre-destining, there still can’t be free will, unless it is a choice involving oneself and not hurting or affecting others. For example, if I was all-powerful, knew everything, was benevolent, and was everywhere at once, then I know everything that is happening. Now, for example, if someone was choosing to murder an innocent person, (when I say innocent, I mean that this person has not done anything to provoke said murderer.) and I did nothing to stop it, even though I knew it was happening and had the power to stop it, then I must have wanted it to happen, or else I would’ve stopped it. Of course, if someone wanted to harm themselves, for example with smoking, alcohol, or cutting, I wouldn’t stop it because it’s that person’s choice, and I would love them enough to allow them to make that choice, but only because it doesn’t harm others. Being killed, however, is different, because it is usually against the victim’s will.
So, even if there is free will involving others and not just one’s self, it is a disturbing concept. Let’s go back to the example of the murderer. It’s safe to assume that it is against the will of the victim to be killed. So does that mean that God values the free will of the killer over the will of the victim? Or, even more disturbing: Does God value the free will of the killer over the life of the victim? Some would say that it doesn’t matter since this life is temporary, but let’s reasonably assume the victim is one of the seventy percent of Earth’s population that doesn’t believe in the Christian God. They would be killed prematurely, and then sent to burn in agony for all of eternity. So if God and free will exist, then apparently God values the free will of the killer over the life of the victim, even when all the victim has to look forward to is eons of torture, just for not believing. If this is indeed the case, I would not want to worship a God that values free will above the only chance people have at life before being sent to burn eternally.
In conclusion, my only question is this: If God really exists, why hasn’t he shown us that he exists? Why shouldn’t his existence be a commonly known fact, instead of one of the most controversial topics on the planet? Why hasn’t God just revealed himself, thus sparing me the time it took to write this?
I would probably get this person to answer a few things;Oh, sorry. I didn’t realize that. :doh2: Here’s what I’ve been wondering about.
This seems to be starting off with the problem of evil, but then moves in a different direction. Since it is not the main topic, I won’t address it, though if you need me to come back to it, I will. Now, I want to address the last part of this statement, where it tries to split up the number going to hell and the number going to heaven. As a Catholic, we can make no proclamation as to the number of people in hell or heaven, therefore the sorting attempt seems arbitrary and faulty. Still, this isn’t really the point of this post.Imagine the person you love the most in the world, maybe a friend, relative, parent, spouse, or child. Now imagine them dying a painful death. Picture yourself standing nearby, with the power to save them. What would you do? You would save them of course. But God, even if he does exist, who supposedly loves us more than anyone on Earth, does nothing. Hundreds of thousands of his “children” die painful deaths and suffer beyond belief every day, and this loving God does nothing. A Christian might say that this life is only temporary, and that we give it up for a blissful eternity. But if Christianity is true, then only about thirty percent of the world will go to heaven. The other seventy percent will receive an eternity of agony burning in flames, simply for not believing in the Christian God.
He did.Some theists have told me that God gave us free will.
Because God’s knowledge doesn’t affect what we can choose.But how can we have free will if God knows everything?
Yes.Does he not have a plan for each one of us that he, being omniscient, know every detail of?
Yes.Does he not know every single choice we will ever make before we make it?
Sure.So can’t we only make choices under the assumption that if God is all knowing, doesn’t he already know we’re going to make them?
This is where everything falls to pieces. God knows our choices and attempts as best He can to make a plan around them. However, saying He “apparently” did nothing about it is unwarranted and impotent. It is unwarranted because one can easily argue that God provides many opportunities for people to convert. He gives them graces and mercy. To claim He does nothing is unwarranted. Adding the term “apparently” in front of everything neuters the argument as is makes it at best inductive and at worst completely subjective. Just because something is “apparently” one way doesn’t make it so. Also, it doesn’t actually develop how there is no free-will. Say we go with the assumption that God does nothing about us making certain decisions that lead us to hell. Wouldn’t that actually enforce the notion that we have free-will as we are making decisions without the influence of God? So even if the argument succeeds, it fails.And if so, would it really be “just” to send unbelievers to eternal torture for choices that he already knew about, planned for, and apparently did nothing about?
This is simply a misunderstanding of free-will. For example simply because I will myself to fly and fail doesn’t mean I do not have free-will. It simply means my will exceeds my means.Even if God is not pre-determining or pre-destining, there still can’t be free will, unless it is a choice involving oneself and not hurting or affecting others. For example, if I was all-powerful, knew everything, was benevolent, and was everywhere at once, then I know everything that is happening. Now, for example, if someone was choosing to murder an innocent person, (when I say innocent, I mean that this person has not done anything to provoke said murderer.) and I did nothing to stop it, even though I knew it was happening and had the power to stop it, then I must have wanted it to happen, or else I would’ve stopped it. Of course, if someone wanted to harm themselves, for example with smoking, alcohol, or cutting, I wouldn’t stop it because it’s that person’s choice, and I would love them enough to allow them to make that choice, but only because it doesn’t harm others. Being killed, however, is different, because it is usually against the victim’s will.
This has now moved from the denial of free-will to the problem of evil. Interestingly enough, hell, which is an absence (as much as possible) of God’s presence seems to be exactly what this person wants. They would be repulsed, supposedly by being united with and forever worshipping a being they see as repulsive. Therefore, while it would be excruciating, he is actually getting what he would want, namely, separation from such a being.So, even if there is free will involving others and not just one’s self, it is a disturbing concept. Let’s go back to the example of the murderer. It’s safe to assume that it is against the will of the victim to be killed. So does that mean that God values the free will of the killer over the will of the victim? Or, even more disturbing: Does God value the free will of the killer over the life of the victim? Some would say that it doesn’t matter since this life is temporary, but let’s reasonably assume the victim is one of the seventy percent of Earth’s population that doesn’t believe in the Christian God. They would be killed prematurely, and then sent to burn in agony for all of eternity. So if God and free will exist, then apparently God values the free will of the killer over the life of the victim, even when all the victim has to look forward to is eons of torture, just for not believing. If this is indeed the case, I would not want to worship a God that values free will above the only chance people have at life before being sent to burn eternally.
If He made it obvious that He existed, people would feel coerced into a relationship with Him instead of seeking one out. He wants people to willfully choose to be with Him and love Him. uncertainty of His existence allows some of that breathing room for people to choose whether or not to seek Him.In conclusion, my only question is this: If God really exists, why hasn’t he shown us that he exists?
Same answer as the last. Though it seems weird that these questions have nothing to do with his earlier writing.Why shouldn’t his existence be a commonly known fact, instead of one of the most controversial topics on the planet? Why hasn’t God just revealed himself, thus sparing me the time it took to write this?
Oh, sorry. I didn’t realize that. :doh2: Here’s what I’ve been wondering about.
God has shown us He exists in the things He has made as St Paul said. Even the ancient peoples realized this though many of them were in error as to God’s nature, or whether there was one or many gods. Some even claimed to be God. God has shown us He exists in His revelation which can be read in the Bible the world over.In conclusion, my only question is this: If God really exists, why hasn’t he shown us that he exists? Why shouldn’t his existence be a commonly known fact, instead of one of the most controversial topics on the planet? Why hasn’t God just revealed himself, thus sparing me the time it took to write this?
(Introduction to Philosophy pg. 91)“God is in now sense the cause of moral evil or sin. Sin is possible because of the abuse of free-will by man, and God, having bestowed free-will, does not take it away again even when it is abused. In His loving Providence, God draws good out of evil, even moral evil. God may be called the cause per accidens (that is,* the accidental cause*) of physical evils in the world; yet those evils, rightly undergone, prove to be blessings to man.”
(Introduction to Philosophy pg. 365)“In many matters we are in the dark about just how such and such a thing fits in with God’s Providence and Government; we are like the puzzled child undergoing a painful operation at the hands of his surgeon-father; the child cannot see how his own father can hurt him so. Yet the hurt means life to the child.”
God has given us the ability to reason, with certitude, to his existence.If God really exists, why hasn’t he shown us that he exists? Why shouldn’t his existence be a commonly known fact, instead of one of the most controversial topics on the planet? Why hasn’t God just revealed himself, thus sparing me the time it took to write this?
The problem is not that God hasn’t given me the ability to know Him. The problem is that I don’t want to.Luke 16:31 “Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’””