How to respond to those who call God a mass murderer?

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Okay, well if it can be demonstrated under scientific testing criteria and peer reviewed by the science community as actually doing something, then I’ll accept it as something there. I know we don’t have scientific tools to look at the source of magical power, but we can create tests to see if it performs better than random chance or if they are generating lightning bolts, then the power of those lightning bolts and if their spells appear to be consistently repeatable. Like always producing a level 3 fireball spell every time. We may not know where the source of that power comes from, but we can conclude that spell appears to actually work.
 
At the risk of starting a separate thread here, regarding the actions of Ananias & Sapphira, I always understood that event as the couple knowingly lying not just to the Church - but to God - apparently without repentance:

Acts 5 (USCCB - NABRE):


“3
But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land?
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While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God.”
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When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last, and great fear came upon all who heard of it.”

“7
After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, unaware of what had happened.
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Peter said to her, “Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?” She answered, “Yes, for that amount.”
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Then Peter said to her, “Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”
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At once, she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men entered they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
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And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.”
 
Again - my problem is not with the lie but with the punishment. The OP was a question about mass murder and here is an example from the New Testament where two people (sinners) were killed. No mercy and no chance for forgiveness - this example was too cruel for me.
 
I guess God’s ways are not ours, but in a time when people witnessed the miracles up front & still some felt it their prerogative to deceive God, God is still sovereign. They showed no signs of remorse.
 
No, you don’t. That is not how a miracle works. A miracle, by definition, is a violation of the normal rules of how the universe operates. Incurable diseases spontaneously and totally healing, food multiplying, human beings surviving and maintaining healthy weight on little or no food for inexplicable lengths of time, the dead coming back to life- these are what we call miracles, and they are not subject to the sort of testing you want because there is no way to predict when one will happen. You can only examine a miraculous claim after the fact and see if it holds up to the standard of beyond a shadow of a doubt that the alleged event did occur and cannot be explained by natural means.
 
God Himself struck them dead, because they were guilty of swearing falsely and thereby profaning His Name before the Church. And this is nothing new: it occurs many times in the Old Testament, where time and again people were struck dead by God because of sacrilege. Two sons of Aaron were consumed by fire because they offered strange fire before the Lord. Korah and his band were consumed by fire when they usurped the priesthood. Time and again, people were struck dead for touching or looking into the Ark of the Covenant.
 
You completely missed the point: raising your children takes priority over self-actualization. Divorce is a selfish act, except as a last resort to escape abuse, and even then, one must remain single.
 
By what authority do you speak? Who are you to judge those in authority over you? To what standard do you appeal, by which you judge others?
 
The refrence of Human Well-being. It’s like referencing nutrition. You can have objective good idas for nutrition like eating fruit and subjective good like apples over oranges. But it is objectively bad to drink battery acid in reference to nutrition. Works the same way when referencing Human Well-Being as your reference point for morality. I claim this based on my understanding of the human experience that overlaps all cultures. It is the universal reference point we all seem to reference when we reference what is good or bad.
 
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I have encountered this same question online myself. I’ve always found it difficult to answer, but particularly so with anyone not believing in Jesus Christ.

We have always understood God as being loving & merciful as well as Holy & just. People are usually all about the love part, but in our current culture, people think of love as purely emotional or sexual - not sacrificial. Love is seen as the component of mercy which gives sinners (if they even accept that sin exists) a get-out-of-jail-free card from any consequences. They are angry or repulsed to learn that God’s justice allows no such liberties. His ways are higher than ours, & when they see exactly how high, they cry: “No fair! I can’t believe in that!” But yet they want to seat themselves as god - & tell God what to do. His morals don’t align with theirs - or their lack of them.

There is the element of God’s love despite arguments to the contrary. His sovereignty & omniscience, so He knows what will happen.

It is important to note that the Israelites were in a Covenant with God. A Covenant was a bond made through the swearing of an oath. Covenants were a serious undertaking long ago. God’s word & your words were completely binding. The Covenant entered into gave a family status to the parties involved. Failure to keep the Covenant resulted in death.

There is the element of the Israelites entering into the Covenant & accepting the blessings and the curses of said Covenant. This can be found here:

Deuteronomy 28 (BibleHub):
http://biblehub.com/niv/deuteronomy/28.htm

A Covenant is sealed with the shedding of blood. The Covenant between Israel & God was sealed with the shedding of blood.

There is the element of God having the power & the right to pronounce judgment & take life as well as the power & Mercy to restore that life.

A murderer is one who unlawfully takes life. God is not a murderer by that definition. He is God, & therefore all life exists because of Him. He does not want anyone to die:

2 Peter 3 (BibleHub)
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

I don’t think it complete answers the question - and honestly, I think that people who raise such a question are not always necessarily wanting an answer, but more of a reason to distance themselves from God further without attempting to really understand Him - but it helps to form the basis of understanding events after the Covenant.

Also there is the knowledge on man’s part deep within of right & wrong so that none of us is excused. Of the time before the covenant, Saint Paul has this to say:

Romans 5 (BibleHub):
http://biblehub.com/niv/romans/5.htm

I think God’s justice demands that at times some lives will be taken. I think with Him knowing all, He foresees what some people’s rebellion will lead to. In the end, He rules. He alone knows what will be, & out of love for us, our free will can be for life or death.

Just some thoughts…
 
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Sleepy2 said:
No mercy and no chance for forgiveness - this example was too cruel for me.
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Do you know that they’re in hell? Do you know that they didn’t repent with their final breaths? Does the story say that they were condemned?

Perhaps the timing of their deaths was both a mercy for them individually and instructive for the church as a whole. 😉
 
I don’t see how what you are describing is any different than what I presented. Miracles are the suspension of the laws of our universe. The observation of those events must be demonstrated to the religious for them to experience them. Otherwise there are no examples of miracles to reference. So the religious need to bring those examples to the science community to see if what they claim happened has actually happened. If it has happened, how do you determine if the cause of that miracle was actually from your deity instead of an unknown natural rare event, a power alien race, a lesser deity, pixies, satanic spell casting, the jedi force, etc? If the science community never educated the religious how microwave technology works, your culture would claim tv remotes are evidence of magic wands since magic is part of your culture for explaning the unexplained.
 
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Then what of the well-being of society? Shall those who refuse to submit to the law be tolerated by the law?
 
You might want to ask them to look deeper into scripture and see the message of how many good people God has saved from the hands of tyranny. Then ask him have people learned anything from that? Why why are people still tyrannical in the world. The Bible is there to teach us morals and values. How many times must God warn us before we begin to listen.
 
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it’s wrong! killing is not always illegal, it is the teaching of the Catholic Church that says so. Committing murder is unlawful killing.
When God takes the life of someone or when he orders to kill it is legal, because he is the legislator and the supreme judge. So the killings ordered by God were not murders because they were legal.
Human rights have poisoned Christianity with its humanism. If God commands us not to commit murder or harm others, it is not because the neighbor has the right to life or to have some good, NO! as a sinner we are all entitled to death, suffering and hell! Usually when one harms others, it is not for the motive of divine justice, but for selfish motive or pure wickedness, and that is what makes us guilty.
 
Raising children does becomes the first priority, but that also means you need to show them how to have a successful relationship. People too immature to deal with reality by them selves and get married to be saved from becoming an adult almost always start taking advantage of the marriage because they are hiding in it. That becomes a loveless marriage and resentful one. That bad relationship is taught to children their whole life till they move out and that is what is familiar and safe to them because they know how to live in that type of home. Your cultural approach to divorce shaming is not helping. How about getting rid of marriage all together so that couples know the other person can always leave when the other person stops caring for the relationship and the other person and maybe that will get people to keep working on the relationship.
 
Well the abolitionists were going against the law of the land for freeing slaves. By reference of human wellbeing that applies to all humans, not just the ones making the rules. The law makers are not moral by default as you imply. This is how you can hold culturals historically accountable for their crimes against humanity regardless of the time period. The threat of slave uprising is not a benefit for that society, the teaching of how to dehumanize people was not a benefit to that society. Try a response that doesn’t fail so easily when you forget to remember societies that had a history of human rights violations. Ever read a history of women? Child labor? American history?
 
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Russell_SA said:
How about getting rid of marriage all together so that couples know the other person can always leave when the other person stops caring for the relationship and the other person and maybe that will get people to keep working on the relationship.
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This is a copout to me.

Why not just say, “I just want the freedom to do as I please without the consequences of it?” It’s the same thing - “…that it matters not that I choose to have sex indiscriminantly & so that if any children result from it, I don’t have to raise them, teach them any morals, provide for them, educate them, show them that they matter. It matters not that I may put myself at risk to any communicable social diseases that may permanently alter my quality of life - not to mention possibly ending my life - & leave me in a position of not being able to provide for myself in such a situation - or provide for any others I may need to. And even more importantly, that I may kill my soul by my own choice out of pride.”

This is sick - & selfish to boot.

This is like saying, we can never stop people from committing acts of murder, theft, sexual abuse, etc. So let’s just legalize it all so we can do as we please.

That will lead to anarchy & chaos. Basically that’s asking for hell on earth.
 
First, the nature of a miracle is simply that it is impossible and it became possible through an intervening agent, namely God. As I stated before it takes faith to believe or to disbelieve. A person can find God through many small miracles everyday, as I did when I was enveloped in a desire to drink that inexplicitly disappeared as I mentioned in another post. As a hospital worker I don’t think I need to tell you that I have seen a few miracles or two in my time. You cannot measure it that way. When I wrote my thesis about the Third Century Crisis (Roman Empire) I discovered several things that I didn’t expect, such as climate change having an impact on the peoples of the steppes and as a consequence of this, and other things, they migrated into Roman territory. Climate change was measured by samples taken from throughout the world from that time to determine the climate during this period and it was discovered that this was one of the problems which affected the migration of the peoples which encountered the Romans and this continued into the next century. God cannot be found like that, I really am afraid that you will have to ask Him.

You want to measure a miracle, I am afraid that I have no answer for you there, it really is a matter of faith.

What I am getting from Irenaeus of Lyons is that the doctrines of the Church really haven’t been changed or manipulated, as has been suggested by so many people. There have been Liturgical changes but not theological as many have suggested. I have never read the book you suggested but we can certainly agree on what you said. People cannot maintain peace negotiations as the overwhelming majority of peace treaties throughout history have not been honored, but we are very good at war and killing. It is the shame and stain of our humanity and if it weren’t for weapons of mass destruction we would’ve had another two world wars at least.
 
My friend I was a little heated on the day and I am sorry for all that conveyed it that way, as I said my nephew was running around all over the place. LOL
I personally believe that Christian societies function better than secular ones based on what we see happening in our world today. I, personally am not obsessed with sex but I do have a problem with encouraging it in society, particularly to children and the breakup of families which we have come to believe as “freedom.” What about self-sacrifice? What about giving of yourself for another? Yes and yes, this can be seen among unbelievers but it is not emphasized in these cultures, where “me” seems to be at the center of everything. I saw the video you posted but haven’t had the time to look at it yet. Today is Easter for us Orthodox, rightly called Pascha, so I will have to go now and I will try to make more responses in the coming days. By the way my brother is an atheist and I love him very much, we don’t argue about religion because we simply agree to differ, I regret to suggest that I am more well read than he is so I really would have the advantage but that isn’t the point, I love the man. I argue with Christian and Muslim relatives about evolution too, some of them reject it. Have you ever read A New History of Life by Peter Ford? Another good one is History of Life in 25 Fossils, they are very good. Have a great rest of your weekend, I will respond more soon. I am always pressed for time. 😦
 
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