How to respond to those who call God a mass murderer?

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Because believers come across as given up their moral judgement for the sake of church unity. There is nothing their deity or their church could do that would make them break from that relationship. We are all educated enough to know the dirty laundry that religion has and is still doing and yet the religious can not walk away from that relationship. The religious, to me, are coming across as mothers who appease the abusive father so that it does not hit her or the children. And then when he does, the mother gives platitudes and stays in the relationship.
Another, but less of a factor as the above stated, is the idea that for something to have great value in this world, the thing must have a tie to the supernatural. Hippies who love the plant world believe plants have souls. Religious people that value other people believe they have souls or are their god’s chosen creation, but their pets don’t. Atheists find that same value in people, plants, pets, etc. without the need to invent a supernatural component for meaning with these entities. We still have imaginations, but we leave the imagination in the appropriate areas, like when our kids play with dolls or when we attend a renaissance fair.
 
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Russell_SA said:
Because believers come across as given up their moral judgement for the sake of church unity. There is nothing their deity or their church could do that would make them break from that relationship. We are all educated enough to know the dirty laundry that religion has and is still doing and yet the religious can not walk away from that relationship. The religious, to me, are coming across as mothers who appease the abusive father so that it does not hit her or the children. And then when he does, the mother gives platitudes and stays in the relationship.
Another, but less of a factor as the above stated, is the idea that for something to have great value in this world, the thing must have a tie to the supernatural. Hippies who love the plant world believe plants have souls. Religious people that value other people believe they have souls or are their god’s chosen creation, but their pets don’t. Atheists find that same value in people, plants, pets, etc. without the need to invent a supernatural component for meaning with these entities. We still have imaginations, but we leave the imagination in the appropriate areas, like when our kids play with dolls or when we attend a renaissance fair.
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Can you find anything positive to say about God?
 
Sure just as I can say a rapist always remembered to give his mother a birthday gift. But the rape kinda supersedes any good that person did. Or do you see this differently based on the written texts of the character of this deity’s actions?
 
Did they not deserve it? What would they have God do? For God to override their free will would be to rob them of their humanity. Was not Noah a preacher of righteousness for a century before the Flood? Yet so many did not heed the warning. Did some convert? Most likely; Noah’s daughters in law had to have come from somewhere, and seeing as the Scriptures say that the world was full of violence then, and that the Last Days will be like the days of Noah, it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest that most believers died as martyrs shortly before the Great Flood. After all, Scripture does say that Noah’s father died five years before the Flood, and his grandfather the very year of the Flood. They died old and full of years, so we cannot tell whether they died of natural causes or were murdered. Regardless, by the time of the Flood, only this family of eight remained righteous among the living.

Likewise in Canaan, Sodom and Gommorah were so depraved that they had rape mobs roaming about with the approval of the governing authorities. They had a reputation of torturing guests for sport, an inversion of the hospitality that was expected. Justice was completely turned on its head, and even so, God would have spared them for the sake of but ten righteous, but not even ten could be found to save the cities. And though these cities were destroyed by the wrath of God in their midst, the Canaanites did not repent, but instead became more depraved. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lived among them, testifying to God’s Truth, but though they knew that Israel would inherit the land, still they did not harken to the God of Abraham. Four hundred years had been given to them as a warning to repent, and instead they fully gave themselves over to depravity, becoming baby-burning sex perverts.

God commanded Pharaoh to let his people go, and showed his power, but Pharaoh wouldn’t listen. The early plagues were simply nuisances, warnings that would irritate Egypt but not cause any serious harm. When Pharaoh would not heed the warnings, then God ruined the economy of Egypt. Only after Pharaoh reneged on his promise repeatedly to let Israel go did God kill the firstborn of every Egyptian, and still not without giving them time to convert. They all saw the plagues, and how their gods were powerless to stop the God of Israel. They had plenty of opportunity to choose the winning side. That Pharaoh’s army chased Israel into the seabed after seeing all of that shows just how perverse they were, not even wiling to cut their losses, but rather provoke the Lord to wipe them out.

And it’s not like the Canaanites didn’t hear about this. They knew what the God of Israel had done to Egypt, and they knew they were next, but few among them had enough sense to beg for mercy. One of the condemned tribes did fear the Lord and convert, and though God had warned Israel not to make peace treaties with the condemned tribes, He allowed this one.
 
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Would they have the Lord tolerate all this wickedness? He is slow to anger and abounding in kindness and mercy, but there is a limit beyond which He is provoked to destroy obstinate sinners, to vindicate His Name and His faithful ones, and all the victims of their wickedness. If they are so obstinate that they will not repent in the face of imminent destruction, then they must be made an example of, lest others become so depraved.

Ah, but they say that God could have intervened to stop these abominations without resorting to killing those responsible. They are hypocrites! They blame God for not intervening, yet they have no interest in His intervention. They want Him to stop other people’s evil, but not their own. They will not tolerate God ruling over them, and would complain without end if He, say, put an end to fornication by making the would-be fornicators impotent. They are fine with Jesus the philosopher, but not Jesus the King of Kings.
 
Agathon said:
That is Marcionism which is heresy.
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Are you sure about that?

Marcionism was an Early Christian dualist belief system that originated in the teachings of Marcion of Sinope at Rome around the year 144.

Marcion believed Jesus was the savior sent by God, and Paul the Apostle was his chief apostle, but he rejected the Hebrew Bible and the God of Israel. Marcionists believed that the wrathful Hebrew God was a separate and lower entity than the all-forgiving God of the New Testament. This belief was in some ways similar to Gnostic Christian theology; notably, both are dualistic, that is, they posit opposing gods, forces, or principles: one higher, spiritual, and “good”, and the other lower, material, and “evil” (compare Manichaeism). This dualism stands in contrast to other Christian and Jewish views that “evil” has no independent existence, but is a privation or lack of “good”, a view shared by the Jewish theologian Moses Maimonides
 
Bill Maher went off the deep end some time ago. No rational person takes him seriously. Cursing God and Christians is all this one trick pony knows how to do. He went from a fairly descent career back in the 90’s to the bottom of the HBO slime bucket all because of his big mouth. He appeals only to a rather perverse audience and his show is like political burlesque. So, don’t lose any sleep over that guy. I must say, however, he should be quite grateful he didn’t live in Old Testament times.
 
Russell_SA said:
Sure just as I can say a rapist always remembered to give his mother a birthday gift. But the rape kinda supersedes any good that person did. Or do you see this differently based on the written texts of the character of this deity’s actions?
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The greatest commandment is to love God. We show our love for God in the way we treat the poorest and most troubled people, because we should treat them as if they are God.

Mathew 25
37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
 
JoshuaIsLord said:
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Agathon:
That is Marcionism which is heresy.
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Are you sure about that?

Marcionists believed that the wrathful Hebrew God was a separate and lower entity than the all-forgiving God of the New Testament.
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JoshuaIsLord said:
Just accept the fact that the God of the Old Testament is not the same God of the New Testament.
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Sure sounds like you’re expressing what Marcionism asserts! 🤷‍♂️
 
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Love is earned and given. If you don’t know this by now, you’ve not taken your relationship with your deity or anyone else that command you to love them seriously.
If you have the power to give your time, but you live forever, giving up your time is not something that is a limited currency for you to give up. Its the same as if we gave someone a piece of sand from the beach.
If you have the power to create anything and not loose anything for making it, it’s again like giving someone a grain of sand while walking on the beach.
We value the things that someone clearly put their time and effort into since we have limited time and resources. We can’t live forever, so choosing someone to spend our limited time with is a gift that we give up can’t ever get back.
If you have the power to make anything and offer your time when you live forever, that’s not really anything that is a burden to you to give. The best thing you can do for someone, when you have that power, is to have a relationship with that person who does not live forever since they are choosing you to share their limited time with. However, since the religious people are not taking this relationship with their deity seriously, there is nothing that deity could do for the religious to walk away from it. Deity or devil, they don’t care as long as it’s the most power entity they can imagine. Love that power since there’s nothing they can do to stop it from going on a rampage than just keeping it happy. The written text of this deity’s character is not anyone could take seriously as an indication that it is benevolent or kind or loving or anything of value to live up to. The religious are just another version of stockholm syndrome. That’s just one reason why I could never become religious if this is what it does to people. Give a blind eye to the actions of this deity because there’s nothing we can do to stop it from wiping out our tribe than worshiping it.

Would you be in a relationship with anyone else if they commanded you to love them instead of earning that from you?

We should care for each other since we have evolved empathy, compassion, and understanding that if we educate our tribe to value those actions and how to address them, we may benefit from it when we land on hard times.
 
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Cannot agree with you here.

Whether we live forever or a minute, or whether we have the whole grain of sand in the world, thr choice on what to do with them is still ours.

We love God for a reason. Agree that love cannot be forced and God does not force us. God loves us therefore it is earned. One can love one’s pet dog regardless of one’s capability or power but one still can love it by taking care of it, feeling attached to it, perhaps even doing dangerous thing to save it. The relationship nevertheless is love.

If someone loves us in like manner, it is all up to us to respond or to run away from him.
 
Someone can love us, but we must give them feed back on how we would want to be loved. Just because someone declares they love us does not mean we are being loved as we would want to. Again, because you don’t seem to apply this basic understanding to your relationship with your deity as you would with an actual person, I don’t believe you are taking this relationship with your deity seriously and are doing anything you can to make it happy so you don’t have to deal with the fallout of not appeasing the abusive person in your relationship.
 
Have you experienced being loved? Do you have a father in your life? I am asking because there are many people who do not have fathers and therefore never experience the love of a father, or a parent.

Now a father’s love, for example. Do you tell your father how he should love you for you to feel being loved by him? If your father is a billionaire, do you tell him that if he does not give you a multi-million yatch and all the crew to operate it for you to invite your friends for party in the Riviera, then he does not love you?
 
Your deity does not love us, it demands we love it. I am not going to take your example seriously since it does not come across as taking this conversation seriously. Your deity says I command you to love me or else. Your deity says love me above all things in your life or else. Your deity says because I give you things that are no bother to me at all to give, you owe me your love or else. I demand you love me. I created you for the purpose to love me. Sorry, but your deity does not know what it is to earn love and respect if it demands this upon pain of consequence or to demand this at all. Love is not demanded or expected. It is earned and offered. Again, your response just reinforces exactly how the religious give platitudes to this abusive relationship they are in.
 
If you cannot answer my question, then there is no logic to your argument which is based on false understanding of love. That’s much I can say. There have to be a basic principle on something that can be explained. You cannot explain yours and fall short on being challenged. It just does not make sense except for an opinionated statement which cannot be explained any further, as you fail to do so.
 
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When I refer to God, in general I mean the source of all being, of all existence, the creator of us all. So I speak of the God who created me, created you.
Do you believe the God who created you does not love you?
Why do you believe you are not loved by God?
 
Russell_SA said:
Your deity does not love us, it demands we love it.
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Russell_SA said:
Love is not demanded or expected. It is earned and offered.
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Russell_SA said:
I created you for the purpose to love me.
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Has a parent ‘earned’ and ‘offered’ love by virtue of giving birth to his child? Does he have a reasonable expectation of being loved merely by virtue of giving life to a human who would not otherwise even exist?
Russell_SA said:
Your deity says because I give you things that are no bother to me at all to give, you owe me your love or else.
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Umm… what’s the “or else” threat here? “Or else don’t love me, and spend eternity as you wish, without me”? Big threat, that… :roll_eyes:
 
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