How to respond to those who call God a mass murderer?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Writer_for_God
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
W

Writer_for_God

Guest
Hi everyone,

I have seen videos of Bill Maher where he essentially says the God of the Old Testament is a psychopathic mass murdered who enjoys killing people. I don’t know how to respond to people like this. There is a lot of killing in the Old Testament, much of it commanded by God.

How do I understand and explain the killing in the Old Testament? This is probably my biggest difficulty with the faith. I can explain and help people understand almost anything else about the Catholic faith, but the killing commanded by God in the Old Testament is stumping me, and I could use some help. Are there any good books that would help me understand the Old Testament better?

Thank you for any help you can give me.
God bless you. Amen.
 
I have found people using that kind of rhetoric are not looking for nor will accept any rational response. Best response is to ignore them. YMMV

Blessings,
Stephie
 
A thought. God said to Abraham, “I will be your God and you will be my people.” God made a sacred covenant with Abraham. God allowed the people to be free, to do both good and evil, and in all instances God was faithful to his covenant with the Chosen People. God Himself started no wars and killed no people in these wars (the army of Pharaoh in the Red Sea is a different story). I submit that God was not pleased with war, but He must be faithful to his promise. That faithfulness in the Old Testament foreshadows the promise of Jesus that He would be with us always, to the end of time. God is faithful to his promises, even though sometimes if means supporting His people in things we do that are not pleasing to Him.
 
These are usually arguments by outrage.

I request looking at the historical, cultural. and literary contexts to see what is actually happening with a careful eye.

Jewish tradition can be helpful in this.

It can be quite the culture shock. But, in all things, God is good and all He does is righteous, but know He is God. Slow to anger but sure to justice.
 
Those people are just trying to wind up Christians. Using hyperbole like that.
“When you are ready to use more respectful language sir, I am happy try and answer your questions. I wont be able to answer all of them. In that case ask someone else”
 
I don’t think you should bother with people who make these statements. It always seems to be the militants who go straight to “God is evil” rather than try and disprove His existence. They act as if they believe God exists, and they merely hate Him. No one will gain anything by engaging with them.
 
The way I’ve come to reconcile the apparent difference between God in the OT and God in the NT is to understand the difference between a parent of a toddler and a parent of an adolescent. I say apparent difference because of course there is no difference in God, merely our relationship with Him as He has revealed His nature to us over time. God always loved us with the same love He revealed to us through Jesus Christ, but first we humans needed to learn some things about right and wrong.

Consider the “gods” of the many polytheist religions throughout the world during the time the books of the Old Testament were written. They were often fickle, often cruel, often indifferent. In short, they acted a lot more like men and women than the God we worship, because of course they were made up by men and women who could conceive of nothing greater. When the true God revealed Himself to the Jews, He revealed Himself to be just, and consistent in that justice. The Old Testament is really all about justice, about laws and covenants, and then God showing that He will enforce those laws and treat fairly with the Jews. This was important because it showed the Jews (and later us Christians) that our God is not like the many unjust human-like deities worshiped by others, and it prepared us for Jesus Christ, whose mercy is so much more meaningful since we know that mercy is not some fickle, inconsistent thing. We know that we can trust God to be truthful with us and righteous in His judgement. His love for us, when He forgives us and welcomes us to His Kingdom, is such an incredible, awesome gift, once you realize the justice of God.
 
Last edited:
Hi everyone,

I have seen videos of Bill Maher where he essentially says the God of the Old Testament is a psychopathic mass murdered who enjoys killing people.
It has been said, that anyone who has an opinion about God could be called a theologian. It has also been said, that theologians reveal more about their own nature than they do about God.

I see a God of kindness and compassion, who despairs at the sinfulness and violence of man. But even when God wipes out mankind in the ‘Flood’, he still has the power to restore them to a greater good life after death.

If there is no God, then all the injustice and suffering in this world never gets put right.
 
Has anyone considered the possibility that Israel’s successes in war were greatly embellished, and attributed directly to the hand of God, by OT writers centuries after the fact, when what really happened centuries earlier was just skillful warfare?
 
Hi Writer_for_God,
The way I want to approach this important topic
is to point out that God’s will is for ALL to be
saved(1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9). He is a compass-
ionate and gracious God(Ex. 34:6; Ps. 103:8)
slow to anger and abounding in Love, yet
according to the Love parable of Song of Songs
(8:6) God’s Love is as strong as death and
His jealousy AS SEVERE AS hell. So,Now we
can understand from the Old Testament’s
wrathful God that HELL IS REAL and unlike
the physical sufferings and death of the sinners,
the spiritual sufferings of hell are worse and
ETERNAL, so God in His Love, gave us His
Just and Righteous side in the OT to instill in
us a Healthy Fear of Him!!
 
Last edited:
I’ve struggled with this question myself, but I think a few things are in order, as there is more than one issue to deal with.
  1. God killing people or allowing deaths:
    Honestly, this isn’t as big an issue as we think. God himself is the author of life, and we know that no one dies without his allowing it to happen. So in a sense, God is “responsible” not just for those he “kills” but those he lets die. The major key here is that God himself granted us our lives, and he takes them back when he allows it to happen. No human can do this (except under very rare circumstances) because we do not own the lives of others. So right away, God’s “obligations” to us differ than our obligations to each other. This takes care of things like plagues, the flood, etc. Furthermore, death is not the end of us, and we know that we will experience a resurrection of the flesh. Given the way death entered into the world, and that God even uses death for his own purposes (bringing good out of evil), this one is a simple matter of looking at the big picture.
  2. God commanding people to kill other people.
    This one was the one that was far trickier for me, because among those he commanded to kill were those who were presumably innocent (like children), and even now sometimes I have to recall the way I figure out the argument. Attempts to say “these were different times” fall flat, honestly, because they smack of relativism. Attempts to allegorize also fall flat because they smack of isegesis (what we want the text to mean) rather than real exegesis. So here are a few ways to consider these commands:
(cntd on next post)
 
A) Divine Condensension: Jesus points to this idea in Deuteronomy when he talks about how Moses allowed divorce in Israel “out of the hardness of their hearts”. Basically, the laws were incomplete in some way, either making compromises with a stubborn people or having to involve means more familiar to the ancient Israelites to make a point. Also, just about each of the troubling commands come from Deuteronomy, meaning “second law”. What was the first law? The ten commandments and a few other ritual regulations in Exodus, but the Israelites failed big time with the golden calf, and then by messing with the midianite women at Peor. Deuteronomic law modifies a lot of the stuff in Exodus (as well as ritual law in Leviticus), normally towards more laxity and to commands more difficult to swallow. But we should never see these as what God originally had in mind. And neither do the scriptures themselves. God later says to Ezekiel with reference to Deuteronomy “I gave them laws that were not good” (btw, this is basically an argument that Scott Hahn makes in one of his more academic papers… I suggest you look it up).

C) Restraint: However, in order for Divine condensension to be condensension, the behavior allowed can’t be more “immoral” than typical cultural expectations. In the case of Harem warfare, what Israel was allowed to do was far more constrained than what other nation states did. The could only go Harem on a small list of nations who were historically hostile to Israel but related to it and aware of its “inheritance”, whose practices would have certainly corrupted Israel, and they could not do so unless provoked, and prior warnings were given to those involved. Furthermore, looking closely at the language, what you do find is that “wiping out” a nation was more about destroying the actual “structure” of the nation, to the point that the people are dispersed and can’t recollect themselves, in many cases, even nations that were “wiped out” still had inhabitants chilling around long after the nation itself was gone. Harem warfare was far more destructive when used by other nations, however.

B) Collective cultures: I’m not appealing to moral relativism here, but we should consider to what extent our moral sensibilities are influenced by Enlightenment style individualism. Israel saw itself as God’s firstborn son, God’s servant, God’s bride, etc. But this is true of other nations. They are seen, also, like single entities. Hence, you might have innocent people killed in some mass plague or disaster, but the punishment is on the nation as a whole. Jesus points to something like this when he comments on the meaning of a collapsing tower that killed a bunch of people. He warned the Jews that those who died weren’t any more wicked than those who live now, but the nation as a whole is being warned for its corruption. We will not be condemned to hell for the actions of another, and in that way God judges each of us individually, but we can suffer consequences en masse when moral rot is widely spread.

These three, combined, with God as the author of life, make sense to me of the difficult passages in question.
 
I’ve struggled with this question myself, but I think a few things are in order, as there is more than one issue to deal with.
  1. God killing people or allowing deaths:
    Honestly, this isn’t as big an issue as we think. God himself is the author of life, and we know that no one dies without his allowing it to happen. So in a sense, God is “responsible” not just for those he “kills” but those he lets die. The major key here is that God himself granted us our lives, and he takes them back when he allows it to happen. No human can do this (except under very rare circumstances) because we do not own the lives of others. So right away, God’s “obligations” to us differ than our obligations to each other. This takes care of things like plagues, the flood, etc. Furthermore, death is not the end of us, and we know that we will experience a resurrection of the flesh. Given the way death entered into the world, and that God even uses death for his own purposes (bringing good out of evil), this one is a simple matter of looking at the big picture.
  1. God commanding people to kill other people.
[/quote]

Scripture simply CANNOT be interpreted outside the kerygma, which is the Incarnation, life, death, resurrection of Jesus Christ.
What you say above is true:
God is omnipotent and the author of life. He gives and he takes…
And at the same time we have Jesus, living Son of God, the Word made flesh, and the very fullness of revelation. If we want to know how God wills and behaves, we look at Jesus. Scripture interpretation must be read with the unsealer of the scrolls, who is the lamb standing as slain.
Pope Benedict very specifically addresses this issue in Verbum Domini sec 42:
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedi...ts/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini.html
If we believe in Christ, it becomes clear that God’s use of power does not violate his revealed nature in Christ. Scripture cannot contradict Jesus Christ.
God cannot be arbitrary and unreasonable, because God has Logos. God is knowable. God cannot contradict himself.

The justification for the more literalist readings of these passages where innocents are slaughtered at the hands of the Isrealites always boils down two things
  1. they deserved it and God commanded it, so they cannot be innocent
  2. the Israelites needed racial and spiritual purity to accomplish God’s will, and these peoples were contaminants
I hope these ideas fade from the Christian consciousness. The
“just deserts”, racial purity, condescension and restraint ideas are anathema to the person of Christ. They are twisted views of Godly power and prerogative, and they scandalize probably more people against Christianity than anything else.
 
Last edited:
I have seen videos of Bill Maher where he essentially says the God of the Old Testament is a psychopathic mass murdered who enjoys killing people. I don’t know how to respond to people like this.
Bill Maher is playing to a mass audience who probably eats up every word of this and begs for more. If one can paint God as a bad guy it essentially excuses everybody in the room from ever having to think about Him or do any sort of hard spiritual work, including working to really understand the OT.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Maher actually had a few nights where he struggled with his beliefs and with the concept of God. Bringing up such topics on a video is a sign of internal conflict.

If you get comments like this from people you actually know, just smile and tell them if they ever want to have a truly open-minded discussion of God, call you, but only after they drop their pre-conceptions and misconceptions. Then just change the subject and talk about something unreligious.
 
It is the aged anti-God argument.

These must reach far into the past, applying reason and morality that they do not apply to themselves and man’s recent historical accounts (murdering in the name of the state or the cleansing of the “bad” Christian religion or the forced conversion into the Islamic or other non-Christian religion… they murder by the millions but are excused as ‘God did not save those people from being murdered, so God bad.’

They purposely or ignorantly refuse to engage the spiritual after life; they also fail to accept that it is God’s Justice that is Merciful and Life-Giving:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11)
While man (and Satan) has the power to kill, only God has the Power to both bring back to Life and Destroy the Spiritual Life.

Their concern remains with the temporal existence. Since they reject God (man’s will superseding God’s) they cannot but hold God accountable for their own disobedience and their demise.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
We also have to consider that they have been both oppressed and successful throughout time and world’s geography… once God chooses man, He does not disown man–it is only man’s disobedience and rejection of God that places him in peril or makes his success the noose around his own neck.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Jesus points to something like this when he comments on the meaning of a collapsing tower that killed a bunch of people. He warned the Jews that those who died weren’t any more wicked than those who live now, but the nation as a whole is being warned for its corruption.
This escapes every single one of them. They want to equate God to man; moralizing against God’s actions while rejecting God’s Justice and Mercy–it is He Who Saves even those who are physically dead!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Last edited:
Define the terms.

Murder is defined as the unlawful taking of human life.

God is the author of human life, it is His to give or to take. God cannot murder.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top