How to respond to traditionalist catholics about their attitude towards the new mass

  • Thread starter Thread starter marcsababa
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
:rotfl:

I see everyone’s been eating their Halloween candy.

I’m actually serious about that question. I think Marcsababa actually made a mistake answering the question at all (sorry M.). It’s an impossible situation so any answer would be wrong. This is why the Peter question can only be answered in a “but he didn’t do that” fashion. He didn’t and any future pope wouldn’t.
 
I attend the tridentine rite because it is an excellent mass and has a good community. I do not hate the new mass, though many current versions of it and the communities that attend it in my area are not as uplifting as my own. However I do like to defend the validity of the new mass and have used the example of the past pope who did celebrate the new mass. I assume the current pope also celebrates the new mass.

My irritatingly (yet lovely in other ways) traditionalist friends have brushed off my comments by saying that the Pope is only a leader in matters of faith and morals. If he chooses to celebrate the new mass, say my friends, that does not indicate that it is okay to attend.

I think that the mass one celebrates is a matter of faith and morals, but I can’t seem to get the argument on a good logical footing. I get mad because they shrug and turn away without willingness to continue the debate. I also get mad because they say they would never attend a new mass. This attitude, I know can lead to sin.

PLease help with a few pointers on this topic.
There is a problem in the Church of two oposite sides.
The “New Mass” is valid because the Pope/Church can and does weild the power to change the liturgy.
The Church is the Bride of Christ.
A Bride and Groom take vows to love each other through sickness and health, for better and for worse.
That is how I hope for the Traditionalists to see the whole matter.
We as Catholics are bound to accept the Church’s precepts and Dogmatic decrees. However, we are still allowed to have our opinions. I personally do not like the New Mass…but I attend it and I tell God every time that I want to see the new Mass fade away and for real Worship and Adoration to make a return. I see it to be a haphazard watered down manner of worship. I prefer the Traditonal Latin Mass, but I am still obligated to follow the precepts of the church and attend Holy Mass each Sunday since there is nothing else readily available to me each time. So, I go to the Novous Ordo liturgy which is valid even with all of its faults put there by man. Nothing can be taken away from the reality of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is like falling in love with a beautiful woman, who grows to become physically unnatractive and yet I say “no, I refuse to cease loving you, you are still the woman I promised my body and soul to!”
The attitude of the new liturgy It is like telling the one you love:
“My love, let us just be casual about the way we love each other, you know I mean well in my heart, it shouldn’t matter if I make an extra effort…you understand that I love you, so I’m not going to put the effort to expressing it so profoundly anymore.”
A priest is “in persona Christi” and the church is also his bride because of his priesthood…therefore, you would think as real men, all priest would honor their bride with reverence and the greatest devotion humnly possible…just as he gives that same to Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.
But it seems the world has a shortage of real men, real leaders, morality, common sense, romance and chilvary.
Right now, the church is sick with the disease of apostacy, apathy, self love and modernism. Everyone wants to be accepted instead of growing a spine and preaching the truth on how we should act and love.
 
I attend the tridentine rite because it is an excellent mass and has a good community. I do not hate the new mass, though many current versions of it and the communities that attend it in my area are not as uplifting as my own. However I do like to defend the validity of the new mass and have used the example of the past pope who did celebrate the new mass. I assume the current pope also celebrates the new mass.

My irritatingly (yet lovely in other ways) traditionalist friends have brushed off my comments by saying that the Pope is only a leader in matters of faith and morals. If he chooses to celebrate the new mass, say my friends, that does not indicate that it is okay to attend.

I think that the mass one celebrates is a matter of faith and morals, but I can’t seem to get the argument on a good logical footing. I get mad because they shrug and turn away without willingness to continue the debate. I also get mad because they say they would never attend a new mass. This attitude, I know can lead to sin.

PLease help with a few pointers on this topic.
Liturgical Norms and Liturgical Piety, Cardinal Francis Arinze:

When we say piety, we think in general of the honor and reverence given to someone who is in some way responsible for our existence and well-being. Therefore the virtue of piety refers first of all to God who is our creator and constant provider. But we can also talk of piety toward our parents, near relatives, country, tribe or people.

As a Christian virtue, piety is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It moves us to worship God who is the Father of all and also to do good to others out of reverence for God. Piety leads us to love the sacred liturgy, to look forward to its celebration and to participate in it with love, faith and devotion. With the Psalmist we sing: “How lovely are your dwelling-places, Lord Sabaoth. My whole being yearns and pines for the Lord’s court. My heart and my body cry out for joy to the living God”. (Ps 84:1-2) Liturgical celebrations become attractive to the pious person. The church bell which rings for Mass is a welcome sound: “I rejoiced that they said to me, ‘Let us go to the house of the Lord’. At last our feet are standing at your gates, Jerusalem!” (Ps 122:1-2) The pious soul has sheer joy in being in the church and more still in joining in divine worship: “Better one day in your courts than a thousand at my own devices, to stand on the threshold of God’s house than to live in the tents of the wicked”. (Ps 84:10)

Liturgical piety, as a beautiful manifestation of the virtue of religion, is at once a compound love of God, faith in Him, adoration, respect, reverence, sheer joy in His service, and a desire to serve Him as best we can. A spirit of faith and reverence which shows itself also in the faithful observance of liturgical norms is most favorable to the promotion of liturgical piety.

adoremus.org/0505Arinze.html
 
In response to Bear06’s comment that I shouldn’t have answered the Jumping Jack question:

You are right. I am learning. I always try and answer questions. I never thought to actually take a question and say that it cannot be answered.
I did not learn from Jesus when he did not respond to his accusers.
 
There is a problem in the Church of two oposite sides.
The “New Mass” is valid because the Pope/Church can and does weild the power to change the liturgy.
The Church is the Bride of Christ.
A Bride and Groom take vows to love each other through sickness and health, for better and for worse.
That is how I hope for the Traditionalists to see the whole matter.
We as Catholics are bound to accept the Church’s precepts and Dogmatic decrees. However, we are still allowed to have our opinions. I personally do not like the New Mass…but I attend it and I tell God every time that I want to see the new Mass fade away and for real Worship and Adoration to make a return. I see it to be a haphazard watered down manner of worship. I prefer the Traditonal Latin Mass, but I am still obligated to follow the precepts of the church and attend Holy Mass each Sunday since there is nothing else readily available to me each time. So, I go to the Novous Ordo liturgy which is valid even with all of its faults put there by man. Nothing can be taken away from the reality of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is like falling in love with a beautiful woman, who grows to become physically unnatractive and yet I say “no, I refuse to cease loving you, you are still the woman I promised my body and soul to!”
The attitude of the new liturgy It is like telling the one you love:
“My love, let us just be casual about the way we love each other, you know I mean well in my heart, it shouldn’t matter if I make an extra effort…you understand that I love you, so I’m not going to put the effort to expressing it so profoundly anymore.”
A priest is “in persona Christi” and the church is also his bride because of his priesthood…therefore, you would think as real men, all priest would honor their bride with reverence and the greatest devotion humnly possible…just as he gives that same to Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.
But it seems the world has a shortage of real men, real leaders, morality, common sense, romance and chilvary.
Right now, the church is sick with the disease of apostacy, apathy, self love and modernism. Everyone wants to be accepted instead of growing a spine and preaching the truth on how we should act and love.
I should also mention the laity…
The laity should stand behind their priests even if they are not living up to holiness…you have to love them and support them. There is nothing wrong with telling a priest how you feel and if something bothers you, but be respectful. Leaders want good followers, not people like these “liturgist” who try and change things. Priest need good solid orthodox men and women to stand behind them and tell the modern types to get a clue…the Mass does not “belong” to the people as so many now think…it is the prayer of the priest…He is the one in charge.
 
No, the Mass is not the “prayer of the priest” to the exclusion of the laity.
 
Dear AlexV, et. al.

"…The excommunications of 1988 apply BY NAME only to Lefebvre, his co-consecrator, and the four bishops they consecrated.

The Church has never defined what “formal adherence to the schism” means,…"

There were no bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre and therefore, excluding the late Archbishop Lefebvre, the excommunication not exclusive, but inclusive of laity in support of SSPX are in fact excommunicated–it is very clear in Ecclesia Dei; additionally, the definition of formal adherence to schism is clearly delineated by the procedures that were followed, which clearly allowed the late Pope John Paul II, RIP, to point to the fact that excommunication had been incurred not only by Marcel Lefebvre, but also by all in support of SSPX.

Fellay, and those whom the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre consecrated remain priests to this day both schismatic, and excommunicated priests–they have no authority that I can discern within the Roman Rite.

SSPX is an internal problem within the Roman Rite, just as the schism committed by Martin Luther is an internal problem: these two schismatic churches exist as internal problems within the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, because they conflict against the unity of our Catholic faith; they corrupt the deposit of faith our Catholic Church is to protect.

Martin Luther corrupted this deposit of faith, because he challenged the exclusive interpretation of scripture with respect to the consecration of the Eucharist that other interpretations outside The Real Presence should be allowable.

Archbishop Lefebvre corrupted the deposit of faith, because he denied the supreme authority of The Vicar of Christ.

It is true some thanks should be given to Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre that Lefebvre, whom Catholics knew prior to his schismatic act against the late Pope John Paul II. Nonetheless, we might place the burden of responsibility on him that the Latin Mass (LM) has gained an infamous identity, which served to impede the growth of the LM made available within The Catholic Church by Pope John Paul II.

There is no reason that anyone should doubt that the Church has the authority that we see today in Vatican II that allowed not only for Sacred Scripture, but also for The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), and the mass to be provided in the vernacular, internationally.

With respect to Masons and to Protestants included in updated translations of the aforementioned books, the Catholic Church does welcome all; just as Christ did die, and was crucified for all.

The Catholic Church is not an organization exclusive to the US, but inclusive of every continent and therefore, there has been tremendous growth within Catholicism throughout the world–Africa in particular, and throughout former Communist Bloc countries. This within the diocese where my parish exists, statistically, and physically is very clear. Many priests within my diocese are foreign born. Two of the three priests, which function between at least five parishes between two counties are foreign born: one from Nigeria, the other from Poland. In the county north of here, a priest there is from Rwanda.

The generation inferior to my own, once recognized as Generation X, is being recognized as the first truly multi-media, multi-cultural (MMMC) generation in the US. Vatican II is an adequate accomodation for this generation, and those generations that will be inferior to their own.

Should we want to argue that the LM is somehow more attractive to young adult males, which would be an element that would substantiate an arguement that the LM will increase the priesthood in the US, then we might consider ignoring the LM, and consider modelling our masses, and our churches after the definitive structure of our US military as more young adult Catholics reside there, than in any other occupation.

It would seem to me that many seminaries closing within the US are closing not for any reason concerning flaws, abuses within the mass, but instead are due to flaws concerning the market: apparently, a preistly vocation is not at such a price anyone has found substantial enough to maintain their existence, but instead has proven to be a competitive failure. It would seem the quality of cooked food in the military is much more attractive, and the uniforms, too.

Maybe I strayed too far from the topic; though, I think that there is enough in the body of what I wrote that will allow anyone to think more reasonably about whatever attitudes people might encounter among those whom we meet that enjoy the LM.

For those of you regularly attending the LM, what has been done to handle attitudes against what some call the Pauline Mass–frankly, I believe it should be called the Johanian Mass after the initiator of Vatican II, Pope John XXIII.

Most sincerely,

Kristopher
 
Amazing how some people can read my heart and declare me an excommunicate because I’ve attended an SSPX Mass in the past. Stupid me, I thought only God could read my heart.

The SSPX are not schismatic nor does the Church consider them as such.

Unless someone can link me to a document that declares I’m excommunicated. :rotfl:I’m on a roll today, too.

And, as an aside…the four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre the Great are indeed bishops. Might be helpful to learn the difference between “illicit” and “invalid” before spouting off on an internet forum. Just a suggestion. :tiphat:
 
No, the Mass is not the “prayer of the priest” to the exclusion of the laity.
I don’t know if I/you are talking about the same thing, and perhaps my wording wasn’t very good. The priest is the one who offers the Holy Sacrifice and the Mass can only be offered by a priest. If the priest is alone and offers the Mass, the Mass is still the Mass…it does not depend on the assembly. At each Mass, there are always multitudes of Angels at the Holy Sacrifice, so even if there are no human bodies, there are still participants regardless.
 
And again, from your position of sitting in judgement of the Vicar of Christ, you have no idea what significance was INTENDED. Closer ties, exploration of commonalities, dispelling of misconceptions, gentle evangelization through proximity, and then we swoop in and convert them while they still have a dazed smile on their face?
Psssst - has anyone gotten around to the swooping and converting part yet? Just curious.

Psssst again - if this sort of thing happens again, perhaps we’ll have to offer a more feminine style for the ladies…



“Bishop” Katharine Jefferts Schori
OR “Nah, let’s just burn 'em.”
I guess that’s your version of sitting in judgement of *past *Vicars of Christ. You know, those overly ridgid popes of the past who were yet to be enlightened. I mean, eh, Enlightened.

DustinsDad
 
Psssst - has anyone gotten around to the swooping and converting part yet? Just curious.

Psssst again - if this sort of thing happens again, perhaps we’ll have to offer a more feminine style for the ladies…

http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2006/06/18/image1726732g.jpg

“Bishop” Katharine Jefferts Schori

I guess that’s your version of sitting in judgement of *past *Vicars of Christ. You know, those overly ridgid popes of the past who were yet to be enlightened. I mean, eh, Enlightened.

DustinsDad
Hope is always a virtue, one we must always cultivate. I anticipate the above lady’s advent will open a number of hearts to the claims of Holy Mother Church. And no, I wasn’t thinking of any pope when I wrote the last bit, so if you’re thinking it was a slap at one of them, why, then you’ll have to take Alex to task over his criticism of one of them for appointing his son as a cardinal. I was thinking of others entirely.
 
Amazing how some people can read my heart and declare me an excommunicate because I’ve attended an SSPX Mass in the past. Stupid me, I thought only God could read my heart.

The SSPX are not schismatic nor does the Church consider them as such.

Unless someone can link me to a document that declares I’m excommunicated. :rotfl:I’m on a roll today, too.

And, as an aside…the four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre the Great are indeed bishops. Might be helpful to learn the difference between “illicit” and “invalid” before spouting off on an internet forum. Just a suggestion. :tiphat:
You’re addressing and argument nobody has made. Nobody declared you excommunicated. In fact, nobody said anyone but the 4 were excommunicated. I simply posted the decree of excommunication and said that it would be hard to say that the SSPX priests are also not excommunicated.

BTW, the FSSP didn’t break with SSPX for no reason.
 
Psssst
  • has anyone gotten around to the swooping and converting part yet? Just curious.
Yes, as a matter a fact we had them primed and ready when they started ordaining women. We had whole congregations who came to Rome.👍
 
Amazing how some people can read my heart and declare me an excommunicate because I’ve attended an SSPX Mass in the past. Stupid me, I thought only God could read my heart.
No one said Dr. Bombay was an excommunicate!
The SSPX are not schismatic nor does the Church consider them as such.
Can you PLEASE link the document that states that the Church does consider them schismatic. I have been earnestly begging for this for a while.
learn the difference between “illicit” and “invalid” before spouting off on an internet forum. Just a suggestion. :tiphat:
I only just realized through your and others’ wise comments that perhaps I do not know the difference between those two terms in the context of Church law. I think these forums are meant to help us learn.

I am always open to pointers on where my arguments are flawed. I am still waiting for someone to show me how the segments of the canon law and other authoritative documents that were quoted here and seem to indicate that the SSPX are in schism are wrong. Or how they do not imply schism. Or where there is a document where the church states that they are not in schism.

Really, I just want to know. But I cannot just believe a person named Dr. Bombay on cyber space when he says repeatedly “They are not in schism” I need meatier evidence.
 
You’re addressing and argument nobody has made. Nobody declared you excommunicated. In fact, nobody said anyone but the 4 were excommunicated. I simply posted the decree of excommunication and said that it would be hard to say that the SSPX priests are also not excommunicated.

BTW, the FSSP didn’t break with SSPX for no reason.
You again. I’m about done with you. You are either not reading this thread closely, or you are attempting to obfuscate.
There were no bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre and therefore, excluding the late Archbishop Lefebvre, the excommunication not exclusive, but inclusive of laity in support of SSPX are in fact excommunicated–it is very clear in Ecclesia Dei; additionally, the definition of formal adherence to schism is clearly delineated by the procedures that were followed, which clearly allowed the late Pope John Paul II, RIP, to point to the fact that excommunication had been incurred not only by Marcel Lefebvre, but also by all in support of SSPX.
The FSSP has found, to their sorrow, the price to be paid for making a deal with the devil. The SSPX has seen this and will act accordingly. They would be fools to reach an accomodation with the conciliar Church. And they aren’t fools. Nor are their priests or laymen excommunicated.
 
Amazing how some people can read my heart and declare me an excommunicate because I’ve attended an SSPX Mass in the past. Stupid me, I thought only God could read my heart.

The SSPX are not schismatic nor does the Church consider them as such.

Unless someone can link me to a document that declares I’m excommunicated. :rotfl:I’m on a roll today, too.

And, as an aside…the four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre the Great are indeed bishops. Might be helpful to learn the difference between “illicit” and “invalid” before spouting off on an internet forum. Just a suggestion. :tiphat:
Not to create an disagreement but I just copied this from EWTN Question & Answers by Rev. Lewis: “Neal, the SSPX’s Bishops presently are still in schism since they were ordained bishops illegally, not with the permission and authority of the Roman Pontiff. Talks are fast progressing and soon we expect the censure will be lifted and the SSPX and we Roman Catholics will be together again. Our laity should not attend their Masses if possible since this is a kind of encouragement to schism. Fr. Bob Levis”

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=484827&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=14&Author=&Keyword=SSPX&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=2&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=
 
No one said Dr. Bombay was an excommunicate!
Ah, contraire. Someone did:
There were no bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre and therefore, excluding the late Archbishop Lefebvre, the excommunication not exclusive, but inclusive of laity in support of SSPX are in fact excommunicated–it is very clear in Ecclesia Dei; additionally, the definition of formal adherence to schism is clearly delineated by the procedures that were followed, which clearly allowed the late Pope John Paul II, RIP, to point to the fact that excommunication had been incurred not only by Marcel Lefebvre, but also by all in support of SSPX.
Really, I just want to know. But I cannot just believe a person named Dr. Bombay on cyber space when he says repeatedly “They are not in schism” I need meatier evidence.
Sorry. Can’t help ya. Alex said it better than I could:
Guess what? Catholicism isn’t about taking every conceivable, possible problem or question and consulting a document stamped “Magisterial judgment…Must obey.”
The SSPX are not schismatic nor does the Church consider them as such. Rather, the onus is on those who claim they are to produce a Church document that declares priests and laymen by name who are excommnicate. Still waiting. And the bishop of Lincoln doesn’t count.
 
Not to create an disagreement but I just copied this from EWTN Question & Answers by Rev. Lewis: “Neal, the SSPX’s Bishops presently are still in schism since they were ordained bishops illegally, not with the permission and authority of the Roman Pontiff. Talks are fast progressing and soon we expect the censure will be lifted and the SSPX and we Roman Catholics will be together again. Our laity should not attend their Masses if possible since this is a kind of encouragement to schism. Fr. Bob Levis”

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=484827&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=14&Author=&Keyword=SSPX&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=2&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=
The Deposit of Faith does not reside in Alabama. Fr. Levis’ opinion carries no more weight than a 12 year old girl altar boy consulted on the same question.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top