How To Shrink Your Church In One Easy Step

[protestantinca]

I saw the other thread about PC USA having voted to approve gay marriage. It bears reminding that the record in terms of membership and attendance of other churches that have done the same is pretty consistent,

thefederalist.com/2014/08/21/how-to-shrink-your-church-in-one-easy-step/

It seems that deviating from Galatians 5:19-20 is paid dearly by those denominations that attempt to reconcile the morals of the 60s’ sexual revolution with Christianity.

Outside Christianity we see the same phenomenon in Muslim and Asian communities. Those who have so called “traditional values” are more fertile and less dysfunctional than those that adopt, for lack of a better word, 60s’ type of morality.

 

[CompSciGuy]

It is my belief that the 60s morality is going to die off in the west. In my experience I have found that many of the more secular-thinking people who accept the sexual-revolution type of morality tend either to want smaller families, or no families at all, whereas the more religious-minded people tend to have the bigger families. This is one of the reasons why Islam is taking off so fast in Europe.

 

[protestantinca]

It is my belief that the 60s morality is going to die off in the west. In my experience I have found that many of the more secular-thinking people who accept the sexual-revolution type of morality tend either to want smaller families, or no families at all, whereas the more religious-minded people tend to have the bigger families. This is one of the reasons why Islam is taking off so fast in Europe.

I couldn’t agree more. In the US, we are somehow better protected against this because secularization is more uneven and because of the geographic separation with Muslims.

My hope is that these people who practice “60s morality” will be wiped out of existence because of, and this is the irony, their own practices which John Paul II correctly called “gospel of death”.

The American society is headed to be reborn in a few decades mostly because the people who practice “60s morality” will be gone.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

My hope is that these people who practice “60s morality” will be wiped out of existence because of, and this is the irony, their own practices which John Paul II correctly called “gospel of death”.

Good Evening Protestantinca: It is a curious thing to see human beings profess a desire to see other human beings wiped out of existence because of their moral standards, when in fact the moral standards of those who would wish such things on others seem to warrant some serious examination. It seems to me that if God was of reasonable intelligence and your ideas on morality were the proper template to apply as an overlay to the conduct of human affairs, God needed only to make you and people who think like you. Buy we know that’s not what happened, and God probably does possess a reasonable level of intellect, and therefore the reasons for the diversity among humankind are probably not an intellectually heavy lift to comprehend.

This is just my opinion of course, but I am open to some discussion on the matter.

All the best,
Gary

 

[protestantinca]

Good Evening Protestantinca: It is a curious thing to see human beings profess a desire to see other human beings wiped out of existence because of their moral standards, when in fact the moral standards of those who would wish such things on others seem to warrant some serious examination. It seems to me that if God was of reasonable intelligence and your ideas on morality were the proper template to apply as an overlay to the conduct of human affairs, God needed only to make you and people who think like you. Buy we know that’s not what happened, and God probably does possess a reasonable level of intellect, and therefore the reasons for the diversity among humankind are probably not an intellectually heavy lift to comprehend.

This is just my opinion of course, but I am open to some discussion on the matter.

All the best,
Gary

Gary, I have only one answer for you: Romans Chapter 1. Read it and it will answer your thought.

It is no accident that John Paul II referred to the so called “60s morality” as “culture of death”. The Europeans are several decades ahead of us in that culture and the result is that they will be replaced by Muslims in my lifetime. It is no accident either that when it comes to sexuality, Muslims have morals that are closer to Christian morality than to so called “60s morality”.

God has a moral plan for humanity contained in the 10 commandments. Jesus said he didn’t come to abolish the law (in reference to Jewish law as understood in 1st century AD in Israel) or the prophets but to fulfill them.

He also gave us free will as to whether to obey the law or to ignore it. As it happens with civilian laws, ignoring God’s law has consequences. In the case of Europe or Japan they are headed for extinction.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Gary, I have only one answer for you: Romans Chapter 1. Read it and it will answer your thought.

It is no accident that John Paul II referred to the so called “60s morality” as “culture of death”. The Europeans are several decades ahead of us in that culture and the result is that they will be replaced by Muslims in my lifetime. It is no accident either that when it comes to sexuality, Muslims have morals that are closer to Christian morality than to so called “60s morality”.

Good Morning Protestantinca:

You seem to hold the writings of Pope John Paul II in high regard, and on this post you have used it to somehow support the notion of wiping other people out because of their beliefs or their lack of belief with regard to how they conduct their lives. Let me give you Pop John Paul II’s opinion on people of other faiths (such as the Muslims you mention in your posts) and people of no belief as well.

Specifically, the Catholic Church has developed a thoroughly inclusive understanding of soteriology in relation to other faiths, that has an explicitly theological foundation. St. Pope John Paul II explained that this approach to other religions is based upon sacred tradition, the church fathers and the very origins of the Christian revelation:

Quote:

"…You speak of many religions. Instead I will attempt to show the common fundamental element and the common root of these religions. The Council defined the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions in a specific document that begins with the words “Nostra aetate” (“In our time”). It is a concise and yet very rich document that authentically hands on the Tradition, faithful to the thought of the earliest Fathers of the Church.

From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions, thereby demonstrating the unity of humankind with regard to the eternal and ultimate destiny of man. The Council document speaks of this unity and links it with the current trend to bring humanity closer together through the resources available to our civilization. The Church sees the promotion of this unity as one of its duties: “There is only one community and it consists of all peoples. They have only one origin, since God inhabited the entire earth with the whole human race. And they have one ultimate destiny, God, whose providence, goodness, and plan for salvation extend to all. . . . Men turn to various religions to solve mysteries of the human condition, which today, as in earlier times, burden people’s hearts: the nature of man; the meaning and purpose of life; good and evil; the origin and purpose of suffering; the way to true happiness; death…and finally, the ultimate ineffable mystery which is the origin and destiny of our existence. From ancient times up to today all the various peoples have shared and continue to share an awareness of that enigmatic power that is present throughout the course of things and throughout the events of human life, and, in which, at times, even the Supreme Divinity or the Father is recognizable. This awareness and recognition imbue life with an intimate religious sense. Religions that are tied up with cultural progress strive to solve these issues with more refined concepts and a more precise language” (Nostra Aetate 1-2).

The words of the Council recall the conviction, long rooted in the Tradition, of the existence of the so-called semina Verbi (seeds of the Word), present in all religions. In the light of this conviction, the Church seeks to identify the semina Verbi present in the great traditions of the Far East, in order to trace a common path against the backdrop of the needs of the contemporary world. We can affirm that here the position of the Council is inspired by a truly universal concern…

In another passage the Council says that the Holy Spirit works effectively even outside the visible structure of the Church (cf. Lumen Gentium 13), making use of these very semina Verbi, that constitute a kind of common soteriological root present in all religions. I have been convinced of this on numerous occasions, both while visiting the countries of the Far East and while meeting representatives of those religions, especially during the historic meeting at Assisi, where we found ourselves gathered together praying for peace.

Thus, instead of marveling at the fact that Providence allows such a great variety of religions, we should be amazed at the number of common elements found within them.…”

• Pope Saint John Paul II (1994), Crossing the Threshold of Hope

He is expressing a theological statement. Lumen Gentium is a dogmatic constitution and it explains that the Holy Spirit operates outside the church among non-believers. This is the document which states that Muslims worship the same God as Catholics. A dogmatic constitution of the Magisterium and not some paper produced by the Vatican City State. Note this section:

Quote:

“The Council defined the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions in a specific document that begins with the words “Nostra aetate” (“In our time”). It is a concise and yet very rich document that authentically hands on the Tradition, faithful to the thought of the earliest Fathers of the Church. From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions”- Blessed Pope John XXIII, Pacem in Terris (1963)

In closing, it is my opinion that the words of JPII that I have supplied above are in direct conflict with your ideas on fomenting distrust of other faiths and the removal of people of no faith from the human venue. Nothing could be further from the thoughts of JPII.

All the best,
Gary Sheldrake

 

[protestantinca]

In closing, it is my opinion that the words of JPII that I have supplied above are in direct conflict with your ideas on fomenting distrust of other faiths and the removal of people of no faith from the human venue. Nothing could be further from the thoughts of JPII.

As a Lutheran in good standing with my church, my position is that scripture (ie, the Bible) is supreme on theological matters and no human (including John Paul II) can override its teaching. I mentioned John Paul II because he is the one who coined the term “culture of death” and how it is taking Europe to extinction. The demographic implosion of Europe’s original peoples is an indisputable fact. It is also indisputable that this implosion is correlated in time with the secularization in Europe. My contention is that the implosion was caused by Europe’s abandonment of Christianity or by ignoring that Christianity is not to be cherry picked. The teachings of Romans 1 are as part of the bible as the teachings included in 1st Corinthians 13. In case you didn’t have a chance of reading Romans 1, here it comes,

**vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PYP.HTM

The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.

Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;

for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.

While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.

They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents.

They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. **

That’s the Word of God. You might take solace in John Paul II’s writings, but the Word of God is what it is.

And as I said, ignoring the Word of God has consequences, not only for civil society but for organized religion. John Paul II’s legacy will be tainted forever by the way the Catholic Church under his leadership covered up the sexual abuse scandal. I don’t think historians will be kind to him when they look at this picture riverdaughter.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/maciel-marcial-and-john-paul.jpg .

So in summary, “60s morality” is not part of God’s plan. God’s command to love one another (1st Corinthians 13) does not override the law included in the 10 commandments. You ignore either at your own peril.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Good Morning Protestantinca:
You seem to hold the writings of Pope John Paul II in high regard, and on this post you have used it to somehow support the notion of wiping other people out because of their beliefs or their lack of belief with regard to how they conduct their lives.

I am not sure that is what he was advocating. I think that he was merely agreeing with me that those with a secular worldview are not going to survive the ages because of a general aversion that many secular-minded people have to raising families (or, at least, to raising large families). Their “wiping out” basically would amount to their dying of old age and being replaced by other groups, such as Muslims, who are out-reproducing them by leaps and bounds.

 

[simpleas]

I am not sure that is what he was advocating. I think that he was merely agreeing with me that those with a secular worldview are not going to survive the ages because of a general aversion that many secular-minded people have to raising families (or, at least, to raising large families). Their “wiping out” basically would amount to their dying of old age and being replaced by other groups, such as Muslims, who are out-reproducing them by leaps and bounds.

I think some Muslims can have more than one wife, I seen it here in the UK (tv doc) were Muslim men have two and three wives, whom they must support by the way, but then have many children. So no wonder there are many more muslims!

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

That’s the Word of God. You might take solace in John Paul II’s writings, but the Word of God is what it is.

.

Good Evening Protestantinca: As a reminder, it was actually you who first showed a proclivity for using the words of JPII in this thread. You were using his words in an effort to support your position of intolerance for people who believe differently than you. I simply used the his words to show that Pope John Paul II in no way agreed with the position you were attempting to use his words to support.

As for the your use of the Old Testament to support your ideas, I would like to point out if I may that this has been done repeatedly throughout history in attempts to promote morally untenable ideas which usually involved the denigration, subjugation or annihilation of other people. For instance, it was done in the 19th century to support slavery, because according to the Old Testament, slavery is quite alright. Also according to the Old testament, stoning adulterers to death is a-ok and stoning disobedient children to death is an imperative. Of course, as modern humans, we know that none of these behaviors are acceptable, and what the people who use the Old Testament to promote such ideas have in common is a desire to use the writings of an iron age culture to justify an agenda of intolerance in the guise of some sort of religious zeal.

All the best,
Gary

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

I am not sure that is what he was advocating. I think that he was merely agreeing with me that those with a secular worldview are not going to survive the ages because of a general aversion that many secular-minded people have to raising families (or, at least, to raising large families). Their “wiping out” basically would amount to their dying of old age and being replaced by other groups, such as Muslims, who are out-reproducing them by leaps and bounds.

Good Evening CompSciGuy: I would like to point out that among living species, the survival strategy of producing swarms of offspring is a specialty of the lowest forms of life such as insects. As you move up the evolutionary ladder, this strategy becomes less and less prevalent. I think this model also has an analog in human society, whereas as humans become more sophisticated, educated and have access to more information and resources and wealth, the less the survival by numbers strategy applies, leaving the least among us to participate in birth wars, which the rest of us understand to be an ecologically dangerous approach.

All the best,
Gary

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

I think some Muslims can have more than one wife, I seen it here in the UK (tv doc) were Muslim men have two and three wives, whom they must support by the way, but then have many children. So no wonder there are many more muslims!

Hi Simpleas - it’s good to hear from you. I don’t know a lot about Muslim marital practices in particular, but seeing that the world population took 150,000 years to get where it was when Neil Armstrong landed on the moon, and it has doubled in the 46 years since, someone has been very busy. When I was a teenager, we called it “active in the community.”

All the best!
Gary

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

In my sojourn back to the Church, Presbyterian USA was my first initial step–I joined it because my soon-to-be wife already was a member (Orangewood Presbyterian in Phoenix, AZ).

Even then (1992-94) the denomination was being rocked by “unofficial but highly influential committees” advocating an overhaul of teaching about sexual morality, including homosexuality. So what has happened I’m not surprised.

Mainstream liberal Protestantism is essentially committing demographic suicide–in an attempt to be SO inclusive they are actually driving out the actual believers:
“The guilty secret of liberal Christianity is that it has never really been an attempt to win converts from the secular world, but has always been aimed merely at winning nods of condescending approval from Christianity’s cultured despisers. Thus for most liberal clergy it is less important that their churches be full on Sunday mornings than that they enjoy a positive image among the kind of people whose opinion they value… As the liberal churches continue to hemorrhage and the conservative churches continue to grow, liberal religion now finds that its main effect is showing people that they do not really need religion at all. As layer upon layer of teaching and practice are stripped away, as it becomes clear that there are virtually no traditions that must be held sacrosanct, as the seat of wisdom is gladly conceded to lie with nonbelievers and even with the antireligious, as subjective ‘personal’ needs finally become the only accepted criteria of truth, many people in the liberal churches reach the point where they naturally become mere ‘alumni’… People often join churches because they experience vague spiritual longings for which they seek fulfillment… But the liberal cleric sees [this] precisely to ‘demythologize’ beliefs which to him are embarrassingly naïve. He actually dampens the enthusiasm of the seeker’s faith, and his guidance in effect tells the convert that ‘the world’ is after all correct in its skeptical judgments… the churches by no means function as magnets exerting maximum religious pull on their members, moving them back from the brink of unbelief. Often they do quite the reverse, and people become secular precisely at the bidding of their religious leaders. Spiritual authority is systematically used to undermine spiritual authority.” Hitchcock, James; “The Guilty Secret of Liberal Christianity”, New Oxford Review, October 1996, vol. LXIII, no. 8, pp. 14–15.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

So in summary, “60s morality” is not part of God’s plan.

Good Evening again Protestantinca: I run into a lot of people on this forum who talk about God’s plan. And it always seems to be in contention somehow with what actually happens at any point in history, whether it be the 1960’s, The Inquisition, mass genocides, sexual behavior, and the list goes on through countless ages. In fact it seems that very little has happened in accordance with what people presume to be God’s plan. To me this suggests that God may not be the best planner, or perhaps being all powerful, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, He has acquired something of a taste for things running amuck over time. On the other hand perhaps the problem is that we should stop presuming that that we have clear ideas on just exactly what God’s plan was in the first place. I think the latter may be the best conclusion until someone comes up with something better.

All the best,
Gary

 

[protestantinca]

Their “wiping out” basically would amount to their dying of old age and being replaced by other groups, such as Muslims, who are out-reproducing them by leaps and bounds.

Exactly my point .

As a reminder, it was actually you who first showed a proclivity for using the words of JPII in this thread.

I only mentioned John Paul II as the guy who coined the term “culture of death” to describe what is happening in Europe today. I think that at this point the situation is irreversible over there. Here in the US, we still have a chance.

As for the your use of the Old Testament to support your ideas, I would like to point out if I may that this has been done repeatedly throughout history in attempts to promote morally untenable ideas which usually involved the denigration, subjugation or annihilation of other people. For instance, it was done in the 19th century to support slavery, because according to the Old Testament, slavery is quite alright. Also according to the Old testament, stoning adulterers to death is a-ok and stoning disobedient children to death is an imperative. Of course, as modern humans, we know that none of these behaviors are acceptable, and what the people who use the Old Testament to promote such ideas have in common is a desire to use the writings of an iron age culture to justify an agenda of intolerance in the guise of some sort of religious zeal.

Other than pointing out that the Old Testament is as part of the Bible as the New Testament (but only as it pertains as having Jesus Christ as the center of the biblical narrative), I want to say that the letter of Paul to the Romans, that I quoted earlier, is from the New Testament. It has been described by Catholic and non Catholic theologians as the “jewel of the crown” among the Pauline letters for laying out what being a Christian means in all aspects of life. It is no accident that Paul addressed it to the early Christian community in Rome, a society that was as non Christian as Europe is today. Romans in the 1st century AD practiced unashamedly homosexuality, orgies and all sorts of sexual immorality that was accepted (and widely practiced) by the Roman society’s elite.

The Old Testament is about the trials and tribulations humanity endured before Jesus could come with his message of law and gospel, so attempting to justify things that Jesus explicitly undid with His coming is not the same as affirming Jewish morality -as understood in 1st century AD- that Jesus himself also explicitly reaffirmed.

 

[protestantinca]

Good Evening again Protestantinca: I run into a lot of people on this forum who talk about God’s plan. And it always seems to be in contention somehow with what actually happens at any point in history, whether it be the 1960’s, The Inquisition, mass genocides, sexual behavior, and the list goes on through countless ages. In fact it seems that very little has happened in accordance with what people presume to be God’s plan. To me this suggests that God may not be the best planner, or perhaps being all powerful, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, He has acquired something of a taste for things running amuck over time. On the other hand perhaps the problem is that we should stop presuming that that we have clear ideas on just exactly what God’s plan was in the first place. I think the latter may be the best conclusion until someone comes up with something better.

Quoting,
Jesus Christ:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVE.HTM

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 14

I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. "

If you take the Bible seriously, and the Catholic Church -at least in theory- does, the above cannot be more explicit.

The notion that affirming traditional Jewish morality is the same as condoning slavery or the Inquisition is preposterous.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

prnca;otestanti12849795:

Exactly my point .

Other than pointing out that the Old Testament is as part of the Bible as the New Testament (but only as it pertains as having Jesus Christ as the center of the biblical narrative), I want to say that the letter of Paul to the Romans, that I quoted earlier, is from the New Testament. It has been described by Catholic and non Catholic theologians as the “jewel of the crown” among the Pauline letters for laying out what being a Christian means in all aspects of life. It is no accident that Paul addressed it to the early Christian community in Rome, a society that was as non Christian as Europe is today. Romans in the 1st century AD practiced unashamedly homosexuality, orgies and all sorts of sexual immorality that was accepted (and widely practiced) by the Roman society’s elite.

The Old Testament is about the trials and tribulations humanity endured before Jesus could come with his message of law and gospel, so attempting to justify things that Jesus explicitly undid with His coming is not the same as affirming Jewish morality -as understood in 1st century AD- that Jesus himself also explicitly reaffirmed.

Good Morning: My apologies for not being more clear, so allow me to draw the connection. In the portion of the letter of Paul to the Romans that you were quoting from, it is widely accepted that Paul was drawing heavily from Old Testament sources, such as Exodus 32:1-4, Numbers 25:1-2, Leviticus 18:22 and Genesis 19, and was in fact drawing parallels from these books to the behaviors of what were at the time modern day Romans. Hence my reference to the Old Testament, because that was the source Paul was drawing from. It was often important to early Christians such as Paul to show Old Testament connections to their new faith.

All the best,
Gary

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

The notion that affirming traditional Jewish morality is the same as condoning slavery or the Inquisition is preposterous.

Good Morning Protestantinca: Please explain that position if you would.

All the best,
Gary

 

[CompSciGuy]

Good Evening CompSciGuy: I would like to point out that among living species, the survival strategy of producing swarms of offspring is a specialty of the lowest forms of life such as insects. As you move up the evolutionary ladder, this strategy becomes less and less prevalent. I think this model also has an analog in human society, whereas as humans become more sophisticated, educated and have access to more information and resources and wealth, the less the survival by numbers strategy applies, leaving the least among us to participate in birth wars, which the rest of us understand to be an ecologically dangerous approach.

All the best,
Gary

I don’t think you have a point. The reason why, as you move up the chain, this approach becomes less prevalent is because more advanced species are more capable of killing other species and defending themselves. This doesn’t apply to the people situation, especially considering that the more “sophisticated” humans tend to look unfavorably upon genocide. Besides, labeling pursuit of large families as “unsophisticated” does not change the demographics or the outcome. Even those unsophisticated swarms of insects have been known to take out entire human populations by the destruction of their crops.

 

[CompSciGuy]

With regards to the soteriology discussion, let’s be clear, Lumen Gentium merely states that those who through no fault of their own have never heard the gospel or of the Church still have the possibility of being saved by seeking God and following their conscience, which is the best they can do with the knowledge that they have. It is up to God to determine how culpable they are either for their lack of understanding of the faith or their rejection of it. What Lumen Gentium does not say is that:

1. The Church and all it teaches are not necessary for salvation.
2. Every religion is true and leads to salvation.
3. Everyone is going to heaven.

In fact it goes on to say:
“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”