How to speak up without overstepping

[Eliza10]

I have to explain the background before asking the question. This is part one of three!

Background: I am married 3.5 years; my husband’s daughter “Suz” [not her real name] is mother of his two granddaughters, one age 16, lives with grandma, as she has since Suz had a drug issue when this one was young, and another, age 7 “Bethie” [not her real name], who is with her because Suz sobered up and stayed sober when she was pregnant this time, and she did NA and AA devoutly, and is doing well now, working in retail. Suz’s new decent boyfriend [vs., as my husband referred to them, her previous “scumbags” boyfriends including the fathers of her two] and his 6 year old daughter moved in with her (she is evangelical protestant like her mom, but has a mix of those values and cultural values) and they are living like family with some sort of plans to marry.

Suz moved out of this house just before my husband and I married and I moved here. I had originally considered making it work, the 4 of us living together , however, after visits here it was clear Suz is a powerful strong personality, and dramatic ( unlike my husband and I), plus, she had a drive to be head-of-household, and I realized I could not live with her. We considered selling and moving to my state, but Suz moved out and that worked out because it felt to her like it was “time” for that, and it really was…

Suz parents different than I, a lot less involved and heavy use of babysitters, free ones, as Suz’s mom helps, and we help, and Bethie is off to the deadbeat dad’s parents nearly every weekend, and part of all holidays – which is excessive to me [and Bethie] but works fine for Suz, and I am not the parent, right? I had my chance and its her prerogative to do to parent her way.

I got real attached to Bethie as for K-2 her other grandmother homeschooled Bethie 3 days a week while I did the other two. My husband and I worked hard at it, and made sure her days were happy and free here, and I was proud to have her on chapter books by the end of 2nd grade in June.

Suz has reason to be a bit “off”. The drug years, being pregnant at 15, and her mom having had a prolonged identity-crisis when Suz was young, and the parental divorce - several reasons. Because of this back story, it makes her not the best Mom in my opinion, though she tries. She is emotionally manipulative and controls people to get their help, she has a temper, and she triangulates. She decided that to be more of a family with her boyfriend and his daughter, the two girls should be put in the local public school, which though in a small town is nationally rated (and run) like the poorest inner city slum school and I am sick about it. But she likes this town, her Mom is down the block for after school babysitting, and friends who help her out (a lot of NA friends, as that is a problem in this town) and at the time she wanted Bethie out of grandma’s control (a triangulation move; she is more recently besties with her Mom, and on the outs with me).

 

[Eliza10]

(part two of three)

Suz’s PTSD- sort-of personality, like I said, is “off” in some ways, and another “off” is that she overvalues and undervalues. After hating me before and just when we married, she flipped to over-valuing me. I was helpful in many ways, and we were available to babysit short notice 24/7. But I needed to return to work, and was less available because I was having my own troubles adjusting, and had to put down some boundaries, at least while I adjusted. This, added to my repeated and ignored attempts to explain how BAD this school district is (I am in education and have the inside scoop) when she wanted to be in denial, brought her to blow-up with me.

It was very dramatic and loud and crude on her part; she exaggerates and even lies to make her point and also acts the dramatic sobbing victim when she is in fact the victimizer. Not to mention she bad-mouths whoever is on her “undervalued” list behind their back with these exaggerations and untruths to everyone and anyone who will listen, and they don’t all have her figured out. We call that calumny and it feels bad). She apologized briefly after this severe blow up, adding that she needed some space, which is funny because I sure did.

Recently she came by to ask a favor (babysit both girls on their and my day off), and a month or so had passed, and I apologized for interfering as i had reflected that she has a right to be in denial about the school she has the girls in. She was grateful for the apology.

Next time I saw her was at the end of her workday when we’d babysat for the girls. She immediately went to the couch for a nap (that was the old routine, which for me, over the summer, had been getting to be a bit much - 3 long days a week with two very active girls, and it would be extended because then she would nap on the couch when she got here - we were tired, too, and ready for downtime before I made dinner, but the supervision time had just been extended (they especially like to play outdoors, and one of us is always out with them when they are outside)…

 

[Eliza10]

(part 3 of 3)

Well, it didn’t work for her this time because it was raining and I was doing work at the desk, and my husband upstairs, and the girls were being loud and active right next to their Mom while she tried to nap. She soon got up and started yelling, that that was IT, and they were going home NOW! She sent the “stepdaughter” upstairs to do something and began yelling at her daughter that she was going to have to clean her room when they got home. Well, these girls share a huge room and it is FULL of toys as everyone is always giving them stuff including their parents, with no limit (its a habit, like a reward is a trip to the dollar store) and NO one at that house is a housekeeper or organizer, at ALL, and LEAST of all their mother, and the girls don’t know how to clean it, as no one EVER showed them how. Bethie said, “I do clean it! All the time!” and her mother began berating how she cleaned, “You only stuff things under the bed, or in the corner” (and that is exactly how her mom cleans). Bethie began to cry and her mother changed her rant to, “Okay, you can watch TV and I will clean your room! I have been cleaning up after people all day long and now that I will go home when I did not even get a nap because you did not let me, and I will clean up YOUR MESS!” Bethie cried harder and Suz retaliated by sending her to sit in time-out on the stairs, and Bethie sobbed more and said, “I hate always being the one who is bad!”.

I think Bethie gets it the most because her Mom wants to keep her boyfriend, so is careful not to yell TOO much at the boyfriend;s daughter. Also the stepdaughter loves school and Bethie is extremely unhappy with school. I felt so bad for Bethie, but I realized I was saying nothing, obediently minding my own business by being quiet, as I had just won some peace with Suz, and did not want to be an interfering stepmom.

Now I think that is wrong. I do not like Suz verbally abusing Bethie in my own house while I sit by and say nothing as if this is normal and acceptable. Its very wrong, as I strongly think the truth is that “silence means consent”. It is WRONG to consent to this. In fact I think it’s cowardly of me to prefer my own peace with Suz over standing up to what is emotional and verbal abuse of little Bethie, who will bear scars of this. I know I cannot change how Suz parents, but I should be able to make it unpleasant or unacceptable to abuse Bethie in my presence, and in my own home.

I think I need more guts to stand for what is right in my presence. What would you do???

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Honestly.

You all need professional involvement.

I am no advocate for CPS but in this case, I think professionals are in sore demand.

Hire a lawyer and see what can be done. Go to a professional and tell them what you’ve told us.

Right now you have an abused 7-year-old dealing with heaven-knows-what behind closed doors. This is NOT something you can handle alone.

Call a lawyer tomorrow and understand your rights. Call a psychologist and figure out what you can do for this kid.

 

[1ke]

Your husband needs to establish boundaries with his daughter, including expected behavior in his home and consequences of not adhering to the boundaries. You also need to establish a plan for handling issues when he is not present or if you will limit her visits to when he is.

House rules: We don’t yell in this house. We don’t threaten in this house. We don’t punish in this house for things a child did not do. Etc.

If you and your husband aren’t on the same page, then you have a bigger issue.

If you believe abuse is occurring, rather than poor parenting which is not a crime, the get authorities involved.

Beyond that, stay out of her choices of school and parenting.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Your husband needs to put the adult daughter on notice. Your home is a drama free zone.

Yelling, threatening, blaming, etc. simply is not allowed under your roof. If it starts up when you are in a public place or visiting their home, you will be leaving. No warning, you will simply leave. Middle of Christmas dinner? No matter, drama starts and I leave.

Honestly, I don’t know why grown ups would permit other adults to behave this way in their own home.

 

[Eliza10]

Xanithippe, we cannot go this route. First of all hiring a lawyer is not in our budget. 2nd of all, Suz’s mother’s budget is already pulled tight because of Bethie’s deadbeat Dad trying to get custody every time he makes it through a halfway house and gets a (short-lived) job and therefore is once again eligible for the state to fund himn taking Suz to court for custody. Not only that, Suz’s Mom needs to continue to pay lawyer (on hold again) and get her daughter citizenship because Suz can only work under the table because Suz was born in England (came over here age 2), her mother was born in Canada), and Suz is only eligible for citizenship in those countries (she has never been to Canada and knows no one there) and with the money all going to lawyers for these things I really do not think we are going to add to the burden of lawyers in their lives.

Finally, I do not think being a bad parent - yelling and losing your temper and saying things we all agree are harmful and truly emotionally abusive is going to get her daughter into foster care - which we do not want anyway. We would have to contest with her maternal grandmother and paternal grandparents to have her here, alienating all, and I work full time because I need to anyway, and am looking for a career change.

Suz is NOT physically abusive, nor is she abusing alcohol and drugs like so many that the DCF is overwhelmed with. We aren’t going to add to Suz’s lawyer/court nightmare already in her life. Its a lousy thing to do to a mother. Even If we had money to sue people every time something is wrong or not fair, in this case we would end up with our never seeing the grandchildren and it would break my husband’s heart, and mine too, and do a huge disservice to the grandchildren because we are a stable loving presence in their lives (and Bethie says this is her favorite place to be).

My husband will consider boundary-making though. He discussed this before I posted it and he will read the replies. His tendency though is to “just get along”, and definitely leans to “codependent-support”, but he will not ignore me when I say something must be done for my conscience to be at rest. We once went to a 12-step program counselor re: codependency before we married, and we could certainly go again, if he needs help understanding what we need to do and how we should do it.

1ke, I like your house rules. I welcome any specifics on this from you and anyone else. I (or really, my husband and I) have to introduce the topic somehow, because last time, as I described above, I just stayed out of it. Then I felt sick abut it,and sure I had responded wrongly (as “not-responding” in fact is a response).

Yes, I think its just very poor parenting. And yes, i apologized to her because one of the reasons she had been upset when she went off on her drama-yelling last month is because I was trying to use reason and facts to help her see how bad it is to have the girls in those schools - when she WANTS to be in DENIAL about the school district in her town (of her rented house), and really, yes, that’s her choice. Sad, but true. But, I can pray.

 

[Eliza10]

Thanks LittleLady. Yes, i am asking myself also why I would allow this. I know I tend towards codependency and I have improved over the years but I need some coaching to deal with this. I almost think that Suz was pushing y boundaries on purpose after I so recently apologized when really, also she should have apologized and I did not insist. (She lacks practice with that). But one must pick one’s battles and the boundaries you describe I need to make.

However, I am the holiday cook. 12 will be here for Christmas dinner. What do I do if its starts up?

Boy, I need to make boundaries clear with Suz. Yelling at her kids here at our house is COMMON. I hate it.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I didn’t say you needed to sue Suz. I am not talking about taking the child or penalizing Suz. I said you needed legal advice.

And you do.

You think that with an aggressive ex you couldn’t be called into court? Are you going to lie to a judge when they ask if you’ve ever witness Bethie being abused?

The child is being verbally abused to the point of crying. It’s NOT ok. You have, in your own words, witnessed verbal abuse.

For this, you need a professional to weigh in on what your responsibilities are. I suggest going to someone who knows the law before a psychologist, because depending on your state a mandated reporter is going to be required to call CPS—yes, even for verbal abuse.

CPS is NOT a trip to foster care. Suz BADLY needs parenting classes. She needs to do whatever it takes to get herself there.

 

[Eliza10]

We are not going to call a lawyer. Getting other advice, yes. Bethie’s deadbeat dad (Suz’s ex-boyfriend) is sort of aggressive in a plodding stumbling way but fortunately he is stupid and is unable to do anything clever or suggest something clever to the lawyer - who takes his state pay but realizes he is defending a longtime user with a fried brain). My husband says he will talk but I think we need advice on how, which I gladly accept here from those who have a good mind for that, and also we would pay a counselor specializing in codependency for that.

I think Suz has PTSD and I am with the philosophy that PTSD’s have multiples. I think one of Suz’s is a Creulla DaviIlle type [Suz LOVES that movie] which she snaps in when intimidated. There is another side of Suz that is compassionate and loving. That is the side Bethie longs for, and she is as happy as can be when that side of her mom comes out.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I wish you could see this with a clear mind.

You have an abused little girl with a severely mentally ill mother who behaves like a Disney villain and may have multiple personality disorder. Her father is a drug addict who’s gained the system enough to get regular custody of her. She’s a part of a highly dysfunctional step-parenting family.

She can’t even go any place and be safe from “that side” of her mom. The child is being tormented to the point of tears in front of witnesses. Do you really think it’s better behind closed doors?

I am going to flag his last post for asking advice about your armchair diagnosis of what is a severe and serious mental illness.

In all reality your dutiy is fisrt to protect the abused child and not to anyone else.

 

[Eliza10]

“I am going to flag his last post for asking advice about your armchair diagnosis of what is a severe and serious mental illness.”

I don’t understand what this means.

My understanding of PTSD is that it is a spectrum and we all have a bit. This understanding comes from my extensive reading on the works of a Christian ministry that has extensive experience in healing hundreds of people of PTSD - not through psychological therapy but through systematic targeted prayer in Jesus’ name. It is in this context that I used the term “PTSD”. Perhaps this is what you call “armchair diagnosis”? I am not a psychologist and not pretending to be one either, as I was not referring to PTSD as it is generally diagnosed. I am also not asking for advice for PTSD treatment. And Suz does not have an official diagnosis. I think you need to ask for clarity before you accuse.

The advice I asked was for for boundary-making. I would like to consider what people who feel confident in these conversations have to say. This is not asking for professional advice or my pretending to be a professional.

Wow.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

You are dealing with an abused child and a mentally ill woman. Then you also have a druggie dad with custody, a terrible stepfamily situation with a similar aged child. Then you and all the grandparent situations.

This is not advice forum goers are able to provide.

 

[Eliza10]

I have no dealings at all with a druggie Dad, and I am not asking for help with that. You insisted we hire a lawyer and I was responding to that with these details. The subject of a lawyer is closed now. (Also the subject of the druggie Dad is closed - who does not have custody at all, but supervised visitation weekly for about an hour).

I am glad you are insulated from all this Xanithippe but these are the times we live in. The younger generation has it a lot harder than ours, and these times are only getting worse. We live in an age of disobedience, and many, many problems are the result.

Life is messy.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I have no dealings at all with a druggie Dad, and I am not asking for help with that. You insistign we hire a lawyer and I was responding to that with these details. The subject of a lawyer is closed now. (Also the subject of the druggie Dad is closed - who does not have custody at all, but supervised visitation for an a week).

I am glad you are insulated from all this Xanithippe but these are the times we live in. The younger generation has it a lot harder than ours, and these times are only getting worse. We live in an age of disobedience, and many, many problems are the result.

Life is messy.

You don’t deal with druggie dad, but the child does. It’s a major part of what’s going on.

I am “the younger generation”

I know the “times we live in”

I also know that you are an adult asking for advice about how to deal with a situation involving an abused child who is still being abused. This isn’t about “overstepping”–a child is being abused to the point of sheer terror.

You brought up these things to paint a picture. I did not ask them. As a mandated reporter I am appalled by the way you want to handle the situation. Of course, you have every “right” to not act in legally capacity, you are not a mandated reporter.

Eventually, I do hope a mandated reporter sees this behavior so they can act in the best interest of this child.

 

[Eliza10]

I also don’t know why you are saying its my duty to protect the child. Did you not read my post? The whole point was I did not feel I did my duty to the child by keeping silent. It should be obvious I want to protect her. I need to make boundaries but NOT alienate Suz or she WILL keep us from the child. And that is no good for the child. She needs us.

It is as if you are all angry and worked up because I did not respond instantly to your instant diagnosis of the situation. It does not seem like a balanced response.

I do not know what a mandated reporter is.

I know the courts and the DCF in this part of New England are overwhelmed with physical abuse and drug and alcohol related cases. We live in an area with one of the biggest economic disparities in the country, and many of the poor struggle. I do not expect the DCF to put a great deal of effort into a parent who loses her temper and says unkind and mean things when she does so. You call it an abused child but I do not know if the court will call it that. I know the school the girls go to has what I deem an abusive policy for dealing with behavioral issues, but, their policy is micro-managed by a professional “behavioral therapist” and it has the sanction of the administration and NO ONE is going to touch it. And is the DCF the savior of children whose mothers light into unkind words when they are angry? I highly doubt it.

I cannot control a lot of things but i want to control what I can and in this case what other posters have suggested -
to make boundaries about what happens in MY house sounds like something reasonably under my control.

Wow, i get drawn into these things too easily. Lets please redirect to my original topic, and not this side one. See the title. How do I speak up without overstepping my bounds? And, what are some suggestions for making new boundaries (like,no yelling, no blaming) when we have (in err) tolerated these behaviors in our presence in the past?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

You called it child abuse in your 3rd post.

Don’t go back and try to change what was said.

Your priorities are way, way off.

You are asking how you can “maintain boundaries” with a mentally ill woman so she doesn’t abuse her child to the point of absolute terror in front of you. This IS the main topic.

Professionals are the ONLY people who can help.

 

[Eliza10]

Okay, Xanthippe, I get where you are coming from. You are very black and white on this. Yes, i did call it abuse, and I meant verbal abuse. I was married, now annulled, to a verbally abusive man, and I know what it is. The courts had all the evidence and I had a great lawyer at $250 an hour, and the courts had extremely convincing evidence and sworn-in eye witnesses to the fact that he was verbally abusive to me, but, they still awarded my ex shared custody - and it was not supervised. So I am not coming from the place of great confidence in family court that you are. And as to this situation, I do not have a record or an eye witness to this conversation other than my husband, who is not going to testify in court against his daughter, and even if he did I do not expect the court to barrel in there and change anything because of it. But such an action would alienate the Mom, and she WOULD cut us out of our grandchild’s life. And that is not good for the grandchild. Actions have consequences. And we have to prudently consider them.

I have spent WAY too much time on this and now its late and I have to go to work tomorrow, and same thing all week long.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

oming from. You are very black and white on this. Yes, i did call it abuse, and I meant verbal abuse. I was married, now annulled, to a verbally abusive man, and I know what it is. The courts had all the evidence and I had a great lawyer at $250 an hour, and the courts had extremely convincing evidence and sworn-in eye witnesses to the fact that he was verbally abusive to me, but, they still awarded my ex shared custody - and it was not supervised. So I am not coming from the place of great confidence in family court that you are. And as to this situation, I do not have a record or an eye witness to this conversation other than my husband, who is not going to testify in court against his daughter, and even if he did I do not expect the court to barrel in there and change anything because of it. But such an action would alienate the Mom, and she WOULD cut us out of our grandchild’s life. And that is not good for the grandchild. Actions have consequences. And we have to prudently consider them.

I’m not declaring “faith in the courts”. Your “normal” meter is broken.

I don’t think you simply slipped up calling it abuse. Raging at a child so that they are in terror, blaming them on things they did not–and could not–even do, acting like a Disney villain…that’s scary. And that’s what Suz is willing to do right in front of you. Do you really, honestly think she acts better when no one is watching?

I also have indicated that I am not proposing you go down half the roads you seem to indicate. Getting legal advice is far from taking someone to court. I am not suggesting the child be removed. I am saying that you are in a very precarious position as the witness to terrible emotional abuse. This is not putting Suz in front of a judge. There’s a TON of things in between “reporting abuse” and family court.

One such thing is family intervention.

I AM saying you need professional help. You cannot cure verbal and emotional abuse even if you forbid it in your home. This child will still be terrorized and abused by her mother unless her mother gets real, substantial help and guidance.

 

[TheLittleLady]

However, I am the holiday cook. 12 will be here for Christmas dinner. What do I do if its starts up?

Her dad, your husband, needs to be very clear about the house rules. If he needs to send them in writing, so be it. Maybe a “contract” signed by both parties. Raised voices, unkind words, shouting, cursing, throwing things, list all of the activities that are not tolerated in your house. Be very clear that these things will result in the offending adult being asked to leave, or, if it is a child/teen they will be required to remove themselves from the table or family room and may eat the rest of their meal in a designated area (perhaps wet up the guest room that has no TV or internet connection, with a card table as a “time out” area for kids who misbehave).