How to start a traditionalist religious order?

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Layman

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There seems to be a dearth of them. It’s a pet fancy of mine.

Up for grabs:
**
  1. Which Rule: Benedict, Francis, Augustine, Carmelite, Other?**
    **2. Large house with grounds necessary?;
  2. Monks or friars (mendicant or self-sufficient?);**
Definitely:

4. Divine Office daily;
5. Beautiful oratory, traditional sacramentals and icons. Baroque or Romanesque style.
6. Tourists kept at arms length; screened off, admitted to Masses only and hospital. Monastery as a prayer factory, a desert, not a tourist trap or retreat centre.
**7. Latin and Chant! **

Does one apply to the Vatican to be regularised/recognised after you’re sure you can maintain yourself? What is the procedure?

Discuss.
 
Rather than start a new traditionalist order, I would rather establish a traditionalist version of one of the existing orders. A good example of this type of Order are the Sons of The Most Holy Redeemer, which is a traditionalist order of Redemptorists.

I woud love to see a traditionalist order of Dominicans. These would imitate the strict example of St. Dominic and the early Dominicans. They would naturally worship using the Dominican Use Mass and would live according to a strict observance of the laws and regulations of the Order of Preachers as practiced prior to the reforms, which where enacted as a result of the Second Vatican Council.

I feel that many Orders are far too relaxed these days and have abandoned the way of life established by their founders. I think it is time to revive the stricter observances and fasts in an effort to induce holiness and growth.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
Rather than start a new traditionalist order, I would rather establish a traditionalist version of one of the existing orders. A good example of this type of Order are the Sons of The Most Holy Redeemer, which is a traditionalist order of Redemptorists.

I woud love to see a traditionalist order of Dominicans. These would imitate the strict example of St. Dominic and the early Dominicans. They would naturally worship using the Dominican Use Mass and would live according to a strict observance of the laws and regulations of the Order of Preachers as practiced prior to the reforms, which where enacted as a result of the Second Vatican Council.

I feel that many Orders are far too relaxed these days and have abandoned the way of life established by their founders. I think it is time to revive the stricter observances and fasts in an effort to induce holiness and growth.
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I agree. There is no point of becoming a religious if life is no different! Perhaps the relaxing of religious orders explains the drops in vocations that have gone on in the past.
 
Perhaps the relaxing of religious orders explains the drops in vocations that have gone on in the past.
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Apart from the changes in society since the 1960’s, I think the reason for the decline in vocations is because the Church began to compromise with the world to a certain extent. For one thing, the Orders definitely softened their ways of life in an attempt to encourage vocations. However, this had the opposite effect. Vocations have been steadily declining since Vatican II and the reforms are partly to blame.

The reason there is a priest shortage is not because of the lack of vocations, but because of the failure of many to respond to the vocations that the Lord has given them. In order to encourage these people to answer God’s calling, the Orders must remain true to themselves and not dilute their way of life.

As Father Z often says, the Church must restore and rebuild her strong identity if it is to remain relevant in the modern world. The aggiornamento encouraged by Vatican II has devastated the Church and we must strive to encourage the restoration of the Latin rite. Only then will we see more of the faithful responding to their vocations. The great success enjoyed by the traditionalist orders and the steady decline of the contemporary orders proves this.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
Rather than start a new traditionalist order, I would rather establish a traditionalist version of one of the existing orders. A good example of this type of Order are the Sons of The Most Holy Redeemer, which is a traditionalist order of Redemptorists.

I woud love to see a traditionalist order of Dominicans. These would imitate the strict example of St. Dominic and the early Dominicans. They would naturally worship using the Dominican Use Mass and would live according to a strict observance of the laws and regulations of the Order of Preachers as practiced prior to the reforms, which where enacted as a result of the Second Vatican Council.

I feel that many Orders are far too relaxed these days and have abandoned the way of life established by their founders. I think it is time to revive the stricter observances and fasts in an effort to induce holiness and growth.
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Dempsey,

Are you familiar with the Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternity_of_Saint_Vincent_Ferrer

They are a traditionalist “Dominican” (not really, hence the scare quotes) group from France, which uses the Dominican liturgy.
Of course, a better idea might simply be to enter the O.P. yourself. The trend I have seen in the O.P. is towards more liturgical tradition. While it’s unlikely that they would revert back to the older liturgy, many of the younger friars are very open to using the liturgy. Indeed, Fr. Augustine Thompson O.P., a friar of the Western Province (American) has detailed on his blog how, in response to a petition from a friar of the Eastern Province (American), Ecclesia Dei stated that Summorum Pontificum allows the friars to use the traditional Dominican liturgy.

dominican-liturgy.blogspot.com/search/label/Canonical%20Status%20of%20the%20Dominican%20Rite

If you are fitted to the vocation (to the O.P.), it’s probably worth considering to join-- they’re generally moving back in the right direction, and you could be part of that. And the primary reason I say this is because the O.P. will not be reformed from the outside if it is to be reformed, it just seems to be of its nature to keep things “in-house.” St. Vincent Ferrer seems like a nice society, but it’s completely unprecedented that such a separate community should join the O.P.
Have you heard of the Franciscans of the Immaculate (FI)? They are very traditional, and very vibrant. I’ve heard excellent things about the FI in America, and I’ve read about a nun’s convent in England which is FI, and completely contemplative. Pretty amazing!

-Rob
 
\I feel that many Orders are far too relaxed these days and have abandoned the way of life established by their founders. I think it is time to revive the stricter observances and fasts in an effort to induce holiness and growth.\

**Tell me, Layman, could you live with a mitigated rule? How would you REALLY do in such a community–not what you dream about others doing with a strict rule.

One Benedictine I know put it this way, “Some people can only work out their salvation with a mitigated rule. Others must have a strict rule.”**
 
Layman said:
There seems to be a dearth of them. It’s a pet fancy of mine.

Up for grabs:
**
  1. Which Rule: Benedict, Francis, Augustine, Carmelite, Other?**
    **2. Large house with grounds necessary?;
  2. Monks or friars (mendicant or self-sufficient?);**
Definitely:

4. Divine Office daily;
5. Beautiful oratory, traditional sacramentals and icons. Baroque or Romanesque style.
6. Tourists kept at arms length; screened off, admitted to Masses only and hospital. Monastery as a prayer factory, a desert, not a tourist trap or retreat centre.
**7. Latin and Chant! **

Does one apply to the Vatican to be regularised/recognised after you’re sure you can maintain yourself? What is the procedure?

Discuss.
Click to expand...
Check out the monks in Wyoming. They are doing it God’s way -

carmelitemonks.org/
 
Dempsey1919 said:
I feel that many Orders are far too relaxed these days and have abandoned the way of life established by their founders. I think it is time to revive the stricter observances and fasts in an effort to induce holiness and growth.
Click to expand...
That’s an understatement!
 
bpbasilphx said:
\I feel that many Orders are far too relaxed these days and have abandoned the way of life established by their founders. I think it is time to revive the stricter observances and fasts in an effort to induce holiness and growth.\

**Tell me, Layman, could you live with a mitigated rule? How would you REALLY do in such a community–not what you dream about others doing with a strict rule.

One Benedictine I know put it this way, “Some people can only work out their salvation with a mitigated rule. Others must have a strict rule.”**
Click to expand...
Very good point.

When I was reading “An Infinity of Little Hours” about the Carthusians, the most austere Western monastic order, there was a very interesting discussion about why the novices do not take their weekly walk with the solemn professed. It might be thought that the point was not to distract or pull down the solemly professed… what with the novices not having learned the Carthusian life yet. But the author explained it was the opposite: one of the points was so that the novices wouldn’t be scandalized by ‘compromises’ with the rule on the part of the professed. The point of the rule is always holiness. The rule is a vehicle for holiness, but different people are… well… simply different.

What a good reminder!
 
I’m considering joining the Legion of Mary. Can anyone explain to me why some priests don’t like it?
 
RobNY said:
Very good point.

When I was reading “An Infinity of Little Hours” about the Carthusians, the most austere Western monastic order, there was a very interesting discussion about why the novices do not take their weekly walk with the solemn professed. It might be thought that the point was not to distract or pull down the solemly professed… what with the novices not having learned the Carthusian life yet. But the author explained it was the opposite: one of the points was so that the novices wouldn’t be scandalized by ‘compromises’ with the rule on the part of the professed. The point of the rule is always holiness. The rule is a vehicle for holiness, but different people are… well… simply different.

What a good reminder!
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There is a story about a starry-eyed postulant who didn’t last longer than 24 hours.

She planned to live, like St. Catherine of Sienna, only on the Holy Eucharist. When the nuns sat down for their poor meal of potatoes, salad, and bread, she left with disgust at their self-indulgence.

I might mention that I know of many Eastern Christians–laymen and seculars–who fast and abstain with a strictness known only by the most austere Western orders.

And I have known monks and others who have been directed to mitigate their physical asceticism.

I myself, because of medical conditions, can only abstain from meat during the fasting periods.

We do what we can do, and apply the medicine of self-reproach for not being able to do more.
 
Well, my concern can be expressed like this. There’s a game you can play in any Catholic religious building called "Where is the crucifix?".
  1. Is there a crucifix?
  2. If there is one, what does it look like?
  3. If there is one, where is it?
Some times it’s not there, or it’s highly stylised, or there’s no corpus or it’s not front-and-centre. Looking at some order’s churches online can be depressing to a traditionalist. You hear odd things, also. Like non-Christan items in places of meditation.

Add in post-Vat. II ‘suggested readings’ and that the Office is now prayed in English and you feel, “Why bother?”.

Plus I’m a bit old to join an established order, looking at their selection criteria. So I fantasise 🙂
 
Actually, the modern stylisation of the crucifix is not to have the cross, just the corpus. Clever, I suppose, but also irritating. And a distraction if you’re contemplating it, I’d day.
 
bpbasilphx said:
\I feel that many Orders are far too relaxed these days and have abandoned the way of life established by their founders. I think it is time to revive the stricter observances and fasts in an effort to induce holiness and growth.\

**Tell me, Layman, could you live with a mitigated rule? How would you REALLY do in such a community–not what you dream about others doing with a strict rule.

One Benedictine I know put it this way, “Some people can only work out their salvation with a mitigated rule. Others must have a strict rule.”**
Click to expand...
I didn’t make the remark attributed to me, there. I have dreamed of being in such a community. The barriers are practical: my age, what I could contribute to the upkeep, my desire for the old Latin Rite and Office and standard church fittings and a fear of being in a New-Age/Modernised order.
 
Layman said:
I didn’t make the remark attributed to me, there. I have dreamed of being in such a community. The barriers are practical: my age, what I could contribute to the upkeep, my desire for the old Latin Rite and Office and standard church fittings and a fear of being in a New-Age/Modernised order.
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I apologize. I lost track of who said what, and confused you for another poster.

However, my principle still applies: Too many people want to see OTHERS living under a strict rule when they themselves cannot follow the most mitigated of observances.
 
I don’t think it’s too much to expect a religious order to have traditional fittings and icons in their Church, to say the Divine Office in Latin, use Chant and to practice austerities. Fasting is a simple sacrifice to make and you’ll recall some demons can’t be cast out without it.

I recall St. John Vianney telling a fellow priest something to the effect that: “Yes, you pray fervently and make moan to Heaven but you don’t fast or sleep on the floor at night. So you don’t make progress”.

You expect a doctor to try to cure people, a plumber to mend leaks and a Catholic religious order to wear street clothes, modernise sanctuaries, flirt with non-Christian religions and take a relaxed attitude to doctrine and practice …

… Err…
 
Layman said:
I don’t think it’s too much to expect a religious order to have traditional fittings and icons in their Church, to say the Divine Office in Latin, use Chant and to practice austerities. Fasting is a simple sacrifice to make and you’ll recall some demons can’t be cast out without it.

I recall St. John Vianney telling a fellow priest something to the effect that: “Yes, you pray fervently and make moan to Heaven but you don’t fast or sleep on the floor at night. So you don’t make progress”.

You expect a doctor to try to cure people, a plumber to mend leaks and a Catholic religious order to wear street clothes, modernise sanctuaries, flirt with non-Christian religions and take a relaxed attitude to doctrine and practice …

… Err…
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**The Eastern fathers remind us that fasting and ascetic acts like sleeping on the floor can be very ambiguous. Demons never eat or sleep at all.

Jesus Himself never said that sleeping on the floor was necessary for spritual progress.

And who’s “You”, Kemo Sabe?

The best I can do during the fasting periods is to abstain from meat. Strictly speaking, I should also avoid fish, eggs, and dairy products and live a strictly vegan diet at these times, including most Wednesdays and Fridays.

I have had to relax my own decades-long practice for medical reasons–and this with the directive of several bishops. They have instructed me that my medical condition is asceticism enough for me.

And as JREducation has pointed out, Franciscans traditionally NEVER chanted the Divine Office or Mass in their own oratories.**
 
Heh heh, I think it’s funny that whenever anyone mentions austerities in this forum, it seems they are often told “Don’t!” in reply.

I look at it this way: Want something from God? What are you offering in return?

The lives of the saints are full of stories of suffering willingly undergone as offerings to Christ and for the conversion of sinners or other intentions.

What is the sacrifice of the Mass? An offering. What is celibacy? An offering. What can you offer the Christian God in return for what you want? Our history is full of suggestions.

Praying is whinging. It works, sure, but I say up the ante: make an offering. See what happens.

What can a layman do? Fast, abstain, be chaste, do good works, with intention of converting sinners, making reparation to the Immaculate Heart Of Mary or for personal goals. Observe the results dispassionately.

To return to the thread topic: There’s nothing stopping any lay person setting up their own group in a house somewhere and living a Catholic life, praying the Divine Office together and eventually deciding on a Rule, as far as I can see. I’d bet that’s how most religious orders get started. You needn’t take any serious, binding vows to begin with. It’d be nice to have company on The Way. Also: “Wherever two or three are gathered together in my name …”.

You do your bit, Bishop B. The Franciscans go their way. **I’m saying it’s a bit queer that if you wanted to join an order with a traditional sanctuary, Mass and Office you might have to travel a good distance, even to another country.

Sixty years ago you could just pop down the road, I dare say.**

Wasn’t ‘Kemo Sabe’ Tonto’s name for The Lone Ranger? What do mean by that?
 
\ I’m saying it’s a bit queer that if you wanted to join an order with a traditional sanctuary, Mass and Office you might have to travel a good distance, even to another country.
\

**Depends on what you mean by “traditional”.

The Romanian-Byzantine and Ukrainian-Byzantine monks in California (to name just one state) are very traditional, with their chapel filled with icons.

I’m saying that laymen should not attempt austerities, including fasting, beyond what the Church requires without blessing and guidance from their spiritual father.

And religious should strictly follow the rule of their community. Obedience is better than sacrifice.**
 
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