How to Stop Being a Nice Guy. Thoughts?

[TheAmazingGrace]

Also, flipping this around, imagine that you have a 16-year-old daughter who is getting more and more independent and going more and more places by herself. What rules of behavior for dealing with men in public would you give her? Doesn’t “don’t talk to strange men” and “don’t give your contact information to people you don’t know well” sound fantastic?

 

[DarkLight]

Part of equality is that, while everyone should be polite to one another, no one should be expected to bend over backwards to not hurt someone else’s feelings. And that’s exactly how a lot of women are thinking here - that we’re expected to put how men feel above our own safety and ability to go out in public without being harassed. Basically that we’re expected to bend over backwards to be “nice” and “accommodating” for the comfort of someone who is making us uncomfortable, as if his comfort counts for so much more than ours does.

 

[Xantippe]

Part of equality is that, while everyone should be polite to one another, no one should be expected to bend over backwards to not hurt someone else’s feelings. And that’s exactly how a lot of women are thinking here - that we’re expected to put how men feel above our own safety and ability to go out in public without being harassed. Basically that we’re expected to bend over backwards to be “nice” and “accommodating” for the comfort of someone who is making us uncomfortable, as if his comfort counts for so much more than ours does.

Right. Because we already feel uncomfortable, and all he had to do to keep that from happening was to mind his own business.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Part of equality is that, while everyone should be polite to one another, no one should be expected to bend over backwards to not hurt someone else’s feelings. And that’s exactly how a lot of women are thinking here - that we’re expected to put how men feel above our own safety and ability to go out in public without being harassed. Basically that we’re expected to bend over backwards to be “nice” and “accommodating” for the comfort of someone who is making us uncomfortable, as if his comfort counts for so much more than ours does.

Yes. And all too often it’s this pressure on women to be “nice” that leads them to getting sexually assaulted, or even murdered.

 

[DarkLight]

I will say I have actually had pleasant conversations at bus stops. But here’s the rules I would put forward:

(1) Talk about something - the weather, what I’m listening to, something. Don’t just start in by hitting on me or trying to get my number.
(2) Respect whether or not I’m sending signals that I want to continue the conversation. If I’m looking up and replying, you’re good. If you’re getting one-word answers while not looking at you and going back to my phone, now is not a good time.
(3) Stay an appropriate distance away. Don’t try to crowd or go in for touch. Also don’t physically block me or put me in a position where I can’t get away.
(4) Stick to daytime in areas where there’s other people. Nighttime or if we’re alone are much more likely to make a woman feel nervous.

So, it can be done. In the area where I was I wouldn’t say it was a hard-and-fast rule not to talk to someone at a bus stop, it just has to be done respectfully.

 

[Xantippe]

I will say I have actually had pleasant conversations at bus stops. But here’s the rules I would put forward:

(1) Talk about something - the weather, what I’m listening to, something. Don’t just start in by hitting on me or trying to get my number.
(2) Respect whether or not I’m sending signals that I want to continue the conversation. If I’m looking up and replying, you’re good. If you’re getting one-word answers while not looking at you and going back to my phone, now is not a good time.
(3) Stay an appropriate distance away. Don’t try to crowd or go in for touch. Also don’t physically block me or put me in a position where I can’t get away.
(4) Stick to daytime in areas where there’s other people. Nighttime or if we’re alone are much more likely to make a woman feel nervous.

So, it can be done. In the area where I was I wouldn’t say it was a hard-and-fast rule not to talk to someone at a bus stop, it just has to be done respectfully.

Yep.

 

[AClaire11]

Yes. And all too often it’s this pressure on women to be “nice” that leads them to getting sexually assaulted, or even murdered.

This is very true. I was raised to be exceedingly polite and remember being instructed at dance class in middle school that you should never, ever say no when a man asks you to dance, even if you don’t want to. I ended up in a lot of uncomfortable situations because I genuinely thought as a teen that it would be unbearably rude for me to say no when asked out, asked for my phone number, etc. Part of what led me to being stalked was not feeling OK telling someone to leave me the hell alone until the situation had already escalated out of control.

 

[pensmama87]

I will say I have actually had pleasant conversations at bus stops. But here’s the rules I would put forward:

(1) Talk about something - the weather, what I’m listening to, something. Don’t just start in by hitting on me or trying to get my number.
(2) Respect whether or not I’m sending signals that I want to continue the conversation. If I’m looking up and replying, you’re good. If you’re getting one-word answers while not looking at you and going back to my phone, now is not a good time.
(3) Stay an appropriate distance away. Don’t try to crowd or go in for touch. Also don’t physically block me or put me in a position where I can’t get away.
(4) Stick to daytime in areas where there’s other people. Nighttime or if we’re alone are much more likely to make a woman feel nervous.

So, it can be done. In the area where I was I wouldn’t say it was a hard-and-fast rule not to talk to someone at a bus stop, it just has to be done respectfully.

Right. I live in a very “friendly” area, and I’ve had lots of conversations with strangers, including men. On transit, in bars, in other public places. That’s not a problem. Sometimes people just like to talk around here, and it’s fine. Wanting to talk, by itself, does not bother me. I’ve never ended up in a long-term relationship (friend or otherwise) with a stranger, but I have had acquaintances that I regularly saw on the bus, or who went for runs at the same time as me or are out with their dogs or watering their plants at the same time when I go by. That shared experience develops a kind of camaraderie that could lend itself to developing a friendship or romantic relationship (if I weren’t married), but I think that needs to be established first. Someone who pushes that at first meeting is going to send off warning bells.

For you to really “click” with someone enough to be able to ask them out at first meeting is really rare. If it happens, it’s likely because you share something or someone in common, and that connection can help vouch for your trustworthiness.

 

[Xantippe]

This is very true. I was raised to be exceedingly polite and remember being instructed at dance class in middle school that you should never, ever say no when a man asks you to dance, even if you don’t want to. I ended up in a lot of uncomfortable situations because I genuinely thought as a teen that it would be unbearably rude for me to say no when asked out, asked for my phone number, etc. Part of what led me to being stalked was not feeling OK telling someone to leave me the hell alone until the situation had already escalated out of control.

Awful!

 

[chevalier]

If I were you, I would go back to the drawing board and forget everything I thought I knew about dating and women. It isn’t working for you, so scrap it.

I would appreciate it if we could drop the subject. I am not looking for advice at the moment, nor is my private life the subject of this conversation beyond one or two example I didn’t think better before mentioning.

Yes.

Being willing to make a fuss and attract attention is often the only weapon we have, and we’re supposed to throw it away?

Just not keeping that weapon drawn all the time and pointed at people would be a start.

This is very true. I was raised to be exceedingly polite and remember being instructed at dance class in middle school that you should never, ever say no when a man asks you to dance, even if you don’t want to.

I hate those sort of rules on less than you do.

I ended up in a lot of uncomfortable situations because I genuinely thought as a teen that it would be unbearably rude for me to say no when asked out, asked for my phone number, etc.

Part of what’s wrong with the traditional rather than the modern culture

Part of what led me to being stalked was not feeling OK telling someone to leave me the hell alone until the situation had already escalated out of control.

Situation does already have to get out of control somewhat before that choice of words becomes appropriate.

Yes. And all too often it’s this pressure on women to be “nice” that leads them to getting sexually assaulted, or even murdered.

Being unnecessarily the opposite of nice to people also tends to have that sort of effect. And it’s not like being rude to people, as opposed to caution, actually ensures safety anyway.

 

[chevalier]

This is where all of the disagreement is. You expect women to just know when they are safe and when they aren’t. But there is just no way to do so.

Nope. All I expect is for the need to feel a sense of safety to remain somewhere within reasonable boundaries rather than being taken out of proportion and trumping everything else.

When someone approaches inappropriately, won’t go away, won’t take no for an answer, or is violating very basic, common social norms, all you know is that they have no problem violating boundaries and you have to assume they aren’t safe.

True, but from what I can see the assumption is made too early, goes too fast and too far involves a whole lot of contempt for the other sex as well as unnecessarily mean way of treating people.

Maybe it’s an incorrect assumption, but it when it’s feelings vs. health/safety/physical well-being, the latter wins every time.

There’s no such distinction. What you’re saying is basically that one person’s feelings matter everything and the other person’s feelings matter nothing, on the basis of one’s sex as the distinction.

And it’s not even relevant because we aren’t talking about how someone’s feelings might be hurt as a side-effect of someone else’s caution. We’re talking about gratuitously voicing rash judgments, insulting accusations and comparisons etc. as an addition to caution.

And if you want to talk about charity, where is the charity for the women who are being put in scary situations and told that they have to weakly and politely finagle their way out?

Nobody said that. What I said is that insulting people, landing verbal jabs and using mean words to make them feel miserable in retaliation for ‘bothering’ you is not a necessary part of caution or justified by caution. Caution serves as an excuse to throw in a little extra, or a whole lot of extra. Such as punish him for even thinking that someone like A could possibly want to talk to or date someone like B. Which is what everybody does actually think because it’s in human nature, but we’re also not really supposed to be too open about it. Somehow this is extra clear when it involves stuff like ‘mansplaining’ but not very clear when it involves women being expected to show some restraint and not bulldoze men’s feelings.

Seriously, being told she’d like to read is too “rude” for you? After approaching her out of nowhere on a bus? Where is the understanding that the world is not a safe place and as a member of the smaller, weaker, and often sexually victimized sex, she might be afraid in this instances and feel the need to take steps to protect her safety?

First, we are not talking about me. Second, all this started from the idea, brought up by me, that a lot of things about boundaries being relative and judged depending on the attractiveness of the person doing what is technically a gaffe, or simply whether it worked (e.g. A and B eventually married). This is the perspective. Where the whole issue of safety was brought up, all I could do — and have done — is protest that whenever safety as a keyword is brought onto the scene that does not mean everything goes. Especially not when the threat is more theoretical than realistic.

After being told no and then ignored, I will shout at the top of my lungs “Get away from me!”

Again, we are not talking about someone who physically follows someone asking to be left alone. If you recall, the very first example brought up was simply calling someone or asking out a second or thirt time. Even then, the whole lèse-*majesté *thing popped up (how dare a man suggest a woman might wish to reconsider whatever was her initial idea! (rather than bending over backwards to demonstrate his compliance with and worship of it)).

If I feel unsafe, I want people to notice and turn, and I want the attention to encourage him to go away. After I had to call the police on a guy pestering me for a ride in a parking lot, the cop offered this as a tip. I’ve only ever had to use it once, but it works.

It also has the potential to destroy people’s lives if you misjudge their intentions and decide to brand them.

Again, it’s quite similar to cops feeling the need to shoot people right away to feel safe.

 

[Xantippe]

Now I am sure that the whole ‘safe person’ category is damaged goods.

On those facts one can’t be sure Steve is a safe person and while you don’t need (never did, anyway) any sort of justification whatsoever to just turn down his offer, certainty that he is unsafe would be an unwarranted as long as he didn’t actually start following you over your objections after you departed.** Had he simply tried reasoning with you, perhaps asking once or twice more (which no doubt must have felt tedious on the receiving end), then it would be a jumped conclusion and ultimately injustice to the guy**, completely separately from the problem of turning down his offer (which is not a problem to begin with because nobody disputes the fact that you have no obligation to accept and shouldn’t be guilt-tripped or pity-tripped into accepting, which would be toxic behaviour for Steve in most situations). The situation doubtless is complicated and not easy on you, but rash judgments do injustice to persons judged and are not exactly morally neutral either. Especially when it concerns a Steve who is concerned for your safety and not his chances of finding a girlfriend (and for all we know Steve may already have one and be happy with her, just not happy to see women walk alone and be assaulted).

I suppose as much, but if Steve actually was concerned for your safety and not his chances of finding a girlfriend, then he would have failed at that goal for having dropping the matter after the first round of declining, especially something to the tune of ‘wouldn’t like to be a burden’, which is admittedly a bit of a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ sort of situation.

You could very well run into a Steve that insisted in this way (a minute or two of arguing about it) out of concern for your safety or some notion of gallantry, but afterward didn’t seek your trust because of how the situation made him feel. A very likely scenario with a more traditional sort of guy, actually. A more traditional sort of guy, as opposed to more of a bully sort of guy, would still probably understand the sentiment due not to being blind to the statistics etc. but wouldn’t appreciate being treated like a criminal himself especially in a place and company where his reputation were somewhat known.

That’s actually what I do in those sort of situations anywy. Boringly reiterate the hazard and the importance of avoiding it, suggest a cab rather than actual company much of the time, pay for it if the money seems to be a problem like the bastard that I am, make sure the situation is safe. And since this is safety management and not comfort management, my comfort is the last thing that matters and if I get insulted in the process then I don’t really mind at all, but it obviously isn’t going to make seek the company of the person who did it, now is it. And I certainly have a good laugh at the sorts of things people may have thought. Oh well, enough with this silliness.

Yes, you could. But precautions are different from judgments. I don’t exactly blame you, of course, but I can’t say I think it’s fair on people.

For the record, in those facts he has not demonstrated that he is likely not to accept a no but rather that the likelihood may be larger than with the average person perhaps. And the cab issue didn’t pop up, so chances are he got no chance to give it a thought (a lot of decent people have rather uninspiring intelligence).

Nah. When Steve is insisting more (and especially if he’s arguing for a minute or two) when he is not a person I know well, Steve is making it clear that he does not respect my autonomy, my judgment, or my right as a fully-functioning adult to make choices for myself. It’s really only a matter of degree for Steve to be stalking me or forcing sex on me because he knows better than me what is in my best interest…More than a few of us on this thread have been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Remember, this is not a court of law–I only have to have a 10% doubt of someone to not put myself into vulnerable situations with them, and perhaps the only part of this that is being actually said is, “No, thanks. I’ll get home by myself just fine. See you next week!” The person who is making it weird by making a big deal of it is Steve. Steve needs to back off.

We don’t and can’t know what Steve is** thinking**–he could be saying stuff about safety, while actually planning an assault. Bear in mind that a woman walking home alone is quite safe. It’s any extra people that make that walk dangerous, be they acquaintances or strangers. Plus, Steve could have a girlfriend and at the same time also be a rapist.

Unfortunately, taxis aren’t that great either.

wsj.com/articles/rise-in-sexual-assaults-reported-by-taxi-passengers-1452476904

Also, in much of the US you can grow old waiting for a taxi.

The great majority of rapes are committed by non-strangers. I can’t this minute find the stats for the general public, but here are some stats for college women:

“About 85 to 90 percent of sexual assaults reported by college women are perpetrated by someone known to the victim; about half occur on a date.”

nij.gov/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/campus/pages/know-attacker.aspx

 

[chevalier]

It’s really only a matter of degree for Steve to be stalking me or forcing sex on me

That ends the conversation for me. There’s nothing to talk about really. On overbloated sense of personal autonomy to the point of expecting everybody else to stop barely short of building shrines and lighting candles to it is one thing, accusing others that way and on such thin proof is something completely different. I find myself unable to carry this conversation any further.

 

[pensmama87]

That ends the conversation for me. There’s nothing to talk about really. On overbloated sense of personal autonomy to the point of expecting everybody else to stop barely short of building shrines and lighting candles to it is one thing, accusing others that way and on such thin proof is something completely different. I find myself unable to carry this conversation any further.

You seem to suggest that there is no need for strangers to earn each other’s trust. Rapport, intimacy, and trust are built over time, not given instantaneously. You also seem to be confusing treating each other with dignity and politeness with a right to trust that is not automatic.

If you’re running into blatant rudeness, over and over again, with people you approach that you intend no harm, then the common denominator is you. (I mean “you” both generally and specifically.) If it only happens to you rarely, then yes, those people may very well have been inappropriate and rude. That can happen. Some people are very rude with no apparent reason. But you give very little room to the idea that sometimes the gentler stuff gets steamrollered and that sends off the alert to call out the big guns.

And actually, especially in public places, calling out loudly is one very good way to alert passersby or anyone within earshot that someone is present who is not abiding by the rules. AFAIK, it’s actually encouraged practice in places like Japan on public transit, where groping is an epidemic problem. Gropers depend on victim silence in cases like these.

 

[Xantippe]

I would beg to disagree. There is obviously something to accept but there’s very little in it to celebrate or otherwise make a show of. Personally, and obviously this is going to be subjective, I’m no big fan of taking the right to decline so far as to require the person declining to treat others badly just as a device for making a stronger point of it. Or as a sort of licence to be impolite about the manner of communicating one’s wishes just because the wish itself is a legit or a constitutional right.

That’s going to differ from state to state, urban vs rural communities etc. Just like in any other country or nation and perhaps more, there are Americans of all sorts of kinds. Americans can be as diverse as night and day.

Europe and America had pretty much standard etiquette several decades ago. It included not being rude or overly blunt without need, as well as making demands somewhat more palatable by adding please, thank you or sorry even when not strictly necessary, and obviously not being quick to accuse or insult people bar extreme circumstances. A lot of this isn’t even etiquette but basically charity or justice in ethical terms. Third wave of feminism (or whichever wave it is now) and modern individualism does a lot of damage by teaching women — and pretty much anybody in a modern society, just to a lesser degree — to ditch all of it and be brusque about what they want and except others to jump to fulfil it immediately and without question and while making a demonstration of proper, immediate and full compliance. It’s sad to watch, obviously from the perspective of someone who doesn’t care much for political correctness but cares much for traditional courtesy.

I’ve seen it either way in all sorts of places.

I didn’t. It nowhere says it was my behaviour, and it usually wasn’t, as I actually very rarely end up on the receiving end of those misunderstandings, except for heated discussions here at CAF where I point out how sweeping conclusions about a man’s intention or character are not okay or the manner of talking about that to him.

And it was not about them being outraged, it was about them feeling unbound by any standard of politeness when talking to a man rather than a fellow woman (or rather than a man talking to them). And this is precisely something that feminism is doing right now, in terms of attitude, and to some extent gender-neutral individualism as well.

1. What I mean is that people have the right to say “no” to me and it’s OK. It’s not a big deal. I ask my friend, “do you want my kids’ old jeans?” and she says “no, thank you” and it’s OK. Or I ask my kids’ friend’s mom if the friend is free to go to a movie and she says “sorry, we’re out of town!” and it’s OK. That conversation does not require a big song and dance of reassurance and apology.

“No, thank you” is not impolite. But not taking no for an answer and pressing people IS impolite.

1. Really? Have you ever met any Germans or Russians? They each have very distinct etiquette. I also happen to have emigre Polish in-laws and (while very nice people) they are a lot more assertive than my WASP culture considers proper. There is a pretty big culture gap there.
2. Third wave feminism may be terrible, blah blah blah, but the rate of sexual assault in the US has plummeted during the era of modern feminism.

Wikipedia says that between 1973 and 2003, the reported incidence of rape declined by 85%.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States

That’s really amazing, especially given that that coincides with a rise in support for victims of sexual assault and far greater willingess to publicly identify as a victim of rape.

So, boo, more rude women! But, yay, fewer women getting raped!

 

[Xantippe]

That ends the conversation for me. There’s nothing to talk about really. On overbloated sense of personal autonomy to the point of expecting everybody else to stop barely short of building shrines and lighting candles to it is one thing, accusing others that way and on such thin proof is something completely different. I find myself unable to carry this conversation any further.

There’s no public accusation being made–there’s just the woman internally noting “Huh–Steve doesn’t accept no as an answer” and making the personal decision not to spend time with Steve or put herself in a vulnerable position with Steve in future.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

That ends the conversation for me. There’s nothing to talk about really. On overbloated sense of personal autonomy to the point of expecting everybody else to stop barely short of building shrines and lighting candles to it is one thing, accusing others that way and on such thin proof is something completely different. I find myself unable to carry this conversation any further.

That’s probably a good thing because you have dug a pretty deep hole.

This conversation is boardering on downright creepy.

 

[Xantippe]

You seem to suggest that there is no need for strangers to earn each other’s trust. Rapport, intimacy, and trust are built over time, not given instantaneously. You also seem to be confusing treating each other with dignity and politeness with a right to trust that is not automatic.

[snip]

And actually, especially in public places, calling out loudly is one very good way to alert passersby or anyone within earshot that someone is present who is not abiding by the rules. AFAIK, it’s actually encouraged practice in places like Japan on public transit, where groping is an epidemic problem. Gropers depend on victim silence in cases like these.

Yep.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It also has the potential to destroy people’s lives if you misjudge their intentions and decide to brand them.

Again, it’s quite similar to cops feeling the need to shoot people right away to feel safe.

What??? Momentary shame doesn’t equal shooting, and it can hardly ruin a life.

But again, if he’s acting outside of social norms and doesn’t take no for an answer, I’m not too worried about being wrong. If I’m wrong, I’ve embarrassed someone over their own inappropriate behavior. If I’m wrong in the other direction and give the guy acting out the undeserved benefit of the doubt, I could get hurt.

Which way to err isn’t even a question.

 

[AClaire11]

That ends the conversation for me. There’s nothing to talk about really. On overbloated sense of personal autonomy to the point of expecting everybody else to stop barely short of building shrines and lighting candles to it is one thing, accusing others that way and on such thin proof is something completely different. I find myself unable to carry this conversation any further.

Good. This thread makes me physically sick to my stomach. And stalking often leads to assault.