How to suggest to pastor/parish board we should have a solemn Mass once a month at least

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I have been leaving my home parish to go downtown and attend a much more beautiful (in architecture and liturgy) parish that offers a Tridentine Mass every week. (forgive me if solemn and Tridentine are not interchangeable terms)

I have been reading online that some parishes across the country are slowly incorporating one of these more traditional Masses into their schedule every week or month because of the growing demand by young people seeking a more intimate encounter with the liturgy of their faith.

My parish is a round church (getting a new building soon though actually, not sure what new blueprint looks like). Members are typically older, it’s in an affluent area, and we have 2 pastors and 1 help-out priest because of the large parishioner base…however the base is mostly old and will not be around forever. The main pastor is a pretty vanilla guy. Liturgy is not orthodox (but not super weird or progressive either). He’s just very low-kewy kinda socially awkward, quiet, doesn’t rock the boat. His homilies are typically feelgoodism or videos showing how they need more money for the upcoming church building project (which drives me nuts).

I want to approach them and ask if this is something they would consider. I don’t know who to approach first though. I assume there’s some parish board that makes these decisions, but would it make more sense to contact the pastor directly? What should I say? He and others there know me because I have brought up my opinion on various things before. I fear that I will just be looked at as some nit-picky parishioner and not have any real effect.

Thoughts?
 
catholicWI said:
I have been leaving my home parish to go downtown and attend a much more beautiful (in architecture and liturgy) parish that offers a Tridentine Mass every week. (forgive me if solemn and Tridentine are not interchangeable terms)

I have been reading online that some parishes across the country are slowly incorporating one of these more traditional Masses into their schedule every week or month because of the growing demand by young people seeking a more intimate encounter with the liturgy of their faith.

My parish is a round church (getting a new building soon though actually, not sure what new blueprint looks like). Members are typically older, it’s in an affluent area, and we have 2 pastors and 1 help-out priest because of the large parishioner base…however the base is mostly old and will not be around forever. The main pastor is a pretty vanilla guy. Liturgy is not orthodox (but not super weird or progressive either). He’s just very low-kewy kinda socially awkward, quiet, doesn’t rock the boat. His homilies are typically feelgoodism or videos showing how they need more money for the upcoming church building project (which drives me nuts).

I want to approach them and ask if this is something they would consider. I don’t know who to approach first though. I assume there’s some parish board that makes these decisions, but would it make more sense to contact the pastor directly? What should I say? He and others there know me because I have brought up my opinion on various things before. I fear that I will just be looked at as some nit-picky parishioner and not have any real effect.

Thoughts?
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What resources are you willing to bring to the project? For starters, this will have to be in the Ordinary Form unless you can form a stable group, appeal to the pastor/bishop, find a competent pastor to officiate at the EF, etc.

OF shouldn’t be an obstacle though, it is quite feasible to have a solemn OF Mass, it’s done every Sunday and feast at the local monastery (in Gregorian chant).

A solemn Mass requires music. The music for a solemn Mass is typically more complex than for your typical parish Sunday Mass. So you will need an experienced choir, or schola. If you want Gregorian chant, you will either have to find a schola, or if you can’t, create/train one. Depending on where you are there may be a local one willing to help out. In the small city where our schola sings, we rotate around to different parishes once a month.

Also, good solemn liturgy is more than just music: it’s about gestures, deep symbolism, reverence, yes all things that still exist (or should exist) in the OF.

So you need a schola/choir, you need better training for the pastor/deacon/altar servers/readers to ensure that they impart the proper degree of solemnity. Often at a solemn Mass, the Preface and EP are chanted. Is the pastor capable of that?

You are asking for a lot (not the impossible, but a lot for your typical parish priest). In cases like that IMHO you must not simply request it, you must be willing to step to the plate and organize it, organize the music, form a schola if you can’t find one. If you want to form a schola or choir, it may take a year or more of training before you’re good enough to tackle the chants of the Graduale Romanum, maybe a bit less for the chants of the Graduale Simplex, or if you go with sacred polyphony… well IMHO that requires even more skill than Gregorian, having done a lot of Gregorian and a bit of polyphony myself.

So again, your best bet is to offer to get involved. It won’t happen all by itself.
 
No, I expect on getting involved. I know it’s not as simple as just changing a couple things up all of a sudden.

Okay, so I guess I am still confused by all the terms. Is solemn the same as Tridentine? Is solemn only EF? What exactly is the difference between EF and OF? I have looked online but seem to get conflicting answers.

The Mass at the traditional parish is definitely labeled “Solemn Mass”. They have beautiful music, is the music always Gregorian Chant at a Solemn Mass? I feel like I might be able to tell the difference. The choir at the suburban parish is actually quite accomplished and well-versed…they are not some silly drum music band. I think they could tackle this quite well if they are not already familiar with what needs to be done.

Thanks for your response.
 
catholicWI said:
No, I expect on getting involved. I know it’s not as simple as just changing a couple things up all of a sudden.

Okay, so I guess I am still confused by all the terms. Is solemn the same as Tridentine? Is solemn only EF? What exactly is the difference between EF and OF? I have looked online but seem to get conflicting answers.
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Solemn is not a divergent term, all Masses are supposed to be solemn (dignified and sincere)…
The Mass at the traditional parish is definitely labeled “Solemn Mass”. They have beautiful music, is the music always Gregorian Chant at a Solemn Mass?
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Mass with Music is called “Missa Cantata” - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missa_Cantata
Gregorian holds pride of place in the Roman/Latin Church, but is not the only option. Normally, you won’t find a Missa Cantata without Gregorian, unless it is celebrated by a priest in an Order with a different Use (Carthusian, Norbertine) or a different Roman/Latin Rite (Ambrosian, Anglican, etc)

This might help:
fisheaters.com/forums/index.php?topic=3422554.0
 
catholicWI said:
No, I expect on getting involved. I know it’s not as simple as just changing a couple things up all of a sudden.

Okay, so I guess I am still confused by all the terms. Is solemn the same as Tridentine? Is solemn only EF? What exactly is the difference between EF and OF? I have looked online but seem to get conflicting answers.

The Mass at the traditional parish is definitely labeled “Solemn Mass”. They have beautiful music, is the music always Gregorian Chant at a Solemn Mass? I feel like I might be able to tell the difference. The choir at the suburban parish is actually quite accomplished and well-versed…they are not some silly drum music band. I think they could tackle this quite well if they are not already familiar with what needs to be done.

Thanks for your response.
Click to expand...
Solemn is not the necessarily the same as Tridentine, and a Tridentine Mass does not necessarily have to be solemn, it can be a low Mass.

In the EF, a solemn Mass is above a Missa Cantata. Others who know more about the EF can chime in with the details.

In the OF, a solemn Mass is structurally identical to any Mass; the solemnity comes from the manner of celebration. In a solemn Mass, there should be chant (either Gregorian or sacred polyphony), processions, incense, maybe chanted readings/gospel/preface/EP, etc. It can be all in Latin or a mix of Latin-vernacular. At the abbey I’m associated with, Greogrian chant is used for the Propers and Ordinary in Latin (Greek Kyrie), but French plainchant is used for the rest. Everything is chanted except the homily.

If you go Gregorian, the chants for the OF Mass are contained in the 1974 Graduale Romanum and will be for the propers:

-Introit
-Gradual
-Alleluia (or tract in Lent)
-Offertory
-Communion antiphon

It also contains the Ordinary. The Graduale Simplex has simpler antiphons and psalmody and a responsorial psalm instead of the Gradual. Perhaps easier for newbies.

If you go EF (Tridentine Mass), and want an EF once a month, you have to follow Summorum Pontificum (motu proprio issued in 2007 by Pope Benedict), which means you form a stable group, petition the pastor, etc. I think it would be quite a bit more difficult than doing a solemn OF, and I personally would like to see more solemn OF Masses with chant, etc., as Sacrosanctum Concilium originally intended. But that’s just me 😛
 
Bruised_Reed said:
A Low Mass might be easier to start with.
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I agree. For a priest and a choir (no matter how good the choir is), it would be daunting to start out with an EF Solemn Mass, IMO, if they aren’t familiar with the EF.
 
catholicWI said:
I have been leaving my home parish to go downtown and attend a much more beautiful (in architecture and liturgy) parish that offers a Tridentine Mass every week. (forgive me if solemn and Tridentine are not interchangeable terms)
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I would say to continue to support the Mass which you’re comfortable with. Canon Law permits personal parishes such as the one you’re attending.

As EF supporters are few and far between, your best bet is to work with those you already know. You’re not going to do it alone, in any case.
 
What is the difference between low mass and OF? High mass and EF?

There are too many terms!!! hah.

So likely what I’m getting at the traditional place is a OF Solemn Mass. It has the processions, sung liturgy, incense, lots of altar boys, two priests and deacon (might actually be three priests), altar rail, litany at the end, prayer to st Michael at end, etc.
 
The pastor is the person who would decide such things usually, not the parish board. Don’t be surprised if you get turned down on this - there are many priests of a certain era that don’t know how to celebrate the Mass in Latin and have no interest in learning.
 
Sunbreak said:
The pastor is the person who would decide such things usually, not the parish board. Don’t be surprised if you get turned down on this - there are many priests of a certain era that don’t know how to celebrate the Mass in Latin and have no interest in learning.
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The advantage with the OF is that you can have the music/chant all in Latin(+Greek) which you can leave to the choir to do. The priest can then recite or chant (if he is able) all his parts in the vernacular. So he can’t use lack of Latin as an excuse.
 
Sunbreak said:
The pastor is the person who would decide such things usually, not the parish board. Don’t be surprised if you get turned down on this - there are many priests of a certain era that don’t know how to celebrate the Mass in Latin and have no interest in learning.
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But is Latin needed for this? I don’t think a solemn high mass has Latin as a requirement, no?
 
quick question:

when receiving at the altar rail, do you say “amen”? only if the priest says “the body of Christ”? and not if they don’t?
 
catholicWI said:
But is Latin needed for this? I don’t think a solemn high mass has Latin as a requirement, no?
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If it’s a Mass in the Extraordinary Form (Low, High, or Solemn) Latin is required, except the sermon. You’ll also have a lot of very quiet prayers said by the priest. A Mass in the Ordinary Form can be all Latin, partly Latin, or in an approved translation. Most people probably wouldn’t know the difference between a Latin OF and an EF. The giveaway would be Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, the Last Gospel, and a silent Canon in the EF.
 
catholicWI said:
quick question:

when receiving at the altar rail, do you say “amen”? only if the priest says “the body of Christ”? and not if they don’t?
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If it’s an OF, yes.

Fr. Z noted that sometimes during the EF, the extra priest will not know the EF formula and will say “Corpus Christi” or “The Body of Christ.” The jury is out whether the response should be “Amen” there.
 
ProVobis said:
If it’s an OF, yes.

Fr. Z noted that sometimes during the EF, the extra priest will not know the EF formula and will say “Corpus Christi” or “The Body of Christ.” The jury is out whether the response should be “Amen” there.
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thank you for this info
 
There should be no Mass said, ever, in the OF or EF, that isn’t solemn! Liturgical abuses are decreasing in my diocese, but still exist. That said, there can be solemnity even when there is a lack of skilled people or resources, and when the church architecture is less than traditional. The external forms are important but not the heart of solemnity.

I bet some pastors would be miffed if someone asked them if there could be a “solemn” Mass offered periodically. That’s like asking a principal if there could be an “educational” program offered periodically. 🙂

I have not visited our diocesan Latin Mass in a long time. Just out of curiosity, in most EF Masses nowadays, is there a distinction between “High” and “Low”?
 
If you are interested in learning more about the EF/Tridentine Mass, there is a book I found very helpful called “Understanding the Latin Mass” by Msgr. George Moorman. It was originally written in the first half of the 20th century. I recently had the chance to attend an EF Solemn Vespers, part of the Liturgy of the Hours, and I was struck by the sense of awe and reverence in that form of worship. I also felt connected to history.

Also, from reading that book and watching EF Mass videos on YouTube, it is clear that the communicant at the altar rail does not say “Amen.” The priest says it for the communicant before the he/she receives the Eucharist.

I would also like to see our parish start having a weekly EF Mass on Sundays, but I have a feeling we’ll have to wait until we get a new priest in a couple of years. I think our priest would be open to it, but I would be very surprised if he knew how to celebrate it. And then the problem would be finding a priest who did.

You also have to keep in mind that starting an EF Mass in your parish is more than just finding a priest to celebrate it. There are additional vestments unique to the EF, and your altar servers would need to be trained in the rite. In the EF, the servers respond to the priest in place of the people and have a far more active role in the liturgy. It would also be complicated by the fact that your parish, like ours, probably doesn’t have an altar rail.
 
commenter said:
Just out of curiosity, in most EF Masses nowadays, is there a distinction between “High” and “Low”?
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Some may dispute this but generally:

The Low Mass is actually a Missa Lecta, or read Mass.

The High Mass is a Missa Cantata, or sung Mass.

The Solemn High Mass is a Missa Solemnis, or a Missa Cantata with a deacon and subdeacon. A Pontifical Solemn High Mass is one celebrated by a bishop.
 
The book I mentioned earlier is actually called “The Latin Mass Explained” by Msgr. Moorman.
 
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