How to take a stand on illegal immigration?

[Ender]

It would seem you have errored - assuming about my knowledge

Let me ask again: would it matter to your position on illegal immigration if the claim about the numbers of citizens killed by illegals was true? As I said before, even if I could provide a number we would both agree on, if the number is irrelevant to you there is no sense in doing the research to find out what the true number is.

Ender

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Would injustice be injustice if called by another name?

I did not write post #18. If you do not wish to know whether that post contains factual information then that is your concern, so why ask it of me?

If the information contained in these quotes is false does it matter to you? Or is it not being worthy of research really the answer already given.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

Without the illegals we would really be hurting as a country. They end up paying most of the taxes everyone else pays but get only a fraction of the benefits. Income tax is the only tax they may or may not pay. They take the lowest jobs and work faithfully. They are moving up in our society. They fill up our Catholic church and are very active. The country is ~98% Catholic. The real problem is the standard of living across the border south. The last I heard deep in Mexico $0.50/hour was going rate. I think we should have a way for them to come across legally and collect the income taxes also. Immigration has always helped this country.

There are a few bad apples.

Sadly, we have killed 50M from abortions in the past 45 years and they have helped make up the difference.

 

[Ender]

{Illegals} take the lowest jobs and work faithfully.

This is false. Illegals are very heavily represented in the construction industry and take many jobs Americans would like to have, especially now with so many people losing their jobs and their homes. It is certainly true that illegals are also heavily represented in lower paying jobs but it is a mistake to imply that these are pretty much the only jobs they take.

The real problem is the standard of living across the border south. The last I heard deep in Mexico $0.50/hour was going rate.

Mexico has the second highest average individual income in all of Central and South America. Theirs is the 12th largest economy in the world; they are a solidly upper middle class nation in the same league as Poland and Turkey.

Ender

 

[Contarini]

How do you guys view this issue and express your opinions on it?

A large part of me believes in cultural hegemony within a nation, and I know that illegals undermine this. However, an even greater part of me realizes that these people have families, and most come from countries that suffer under poor conditions and corruption. I am by no means pro-deportation, I believe that solution is inhumane and does not take into consideration human dignity. But I am not pro-legalized citizenship of illegals either. I believe in a middle ground, one where they can stay here and work but where they also don’t get benefits such as voting.

What do you guys think, and what does the Catholic Church think? I am a fairly new Catholic and have not heard a whole lot about this issue. Thanks and God bless!

It seems to me that issues like “cultural hegemony” are issues that Christians can legitimately disagree on. My own view is that this concept makes sense in a European context but none in the context of the United States. But that’s not a theological issue.

The more important point is that ideas like “cultural hegemony” take a back seat to questions of basic human dignity. I think that the Catholic Church does a very good job of articulating what the moral claims of immigrants are, and as I understand the Catholic Church’s position it leaves a lot of room for disagreement. What it doesn’t leave room for is the idea that people are either inferior to us because of their racial origin (something that few people in the U.S. are willing to say publicly any more, thank God) or that they deserve to be punished without mercy (I don’t mean killed, but subjected to the full penalties of the law, which in this case means deportation and going to the “back of the line”) because they have violated a human law in the search to provide for their families. This latter issue seems to me to be where much “conservative” rhetoric today falls foul of Christian moral teaching. There is nothing wrong with an “amnesty” that retrospectively lets illegal immigrants off the hook. There is no moral requirement to make them “get to the back of the line” because they came here illegally. Nothing about Christian morality requires this.

I think that your position is a morally legitimate one, although I have questions about how it fits the basic political principles of the United States (not very well, in my opinion, but then I’m not a U.S. citizen by my own choice, in spite of having lived here most of my life, so my opinion doesn’t count for much on this score).

Edwin

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…
I think that the Catholic Church does a very good job of articulating what the moral claims of immigrants are, and as I understand the Catholic Church’s position it leaves a lot of room for disagreement. What it doesn’t leave room for is the idea that people are either inferior to us because of their racial origin (something that few people in the U.S. are willing to say publicly any more, thank God) or that they deserve to be punished without mercy (I don’t mean killed, but subjected to the full penalties of the law, which in this case means deportation and going to the “back of the line”) because they have violated a human law in the search to provide for their families…

And thus the silliness of the border patrol, arrest them, take them to the border, release them, and when they cross back into the US repeat the cycle. The alternative is arrest them, imprison them thus turning them from a tax payer to a tax drain.

This latter issue seems to me to be where much “conservative” rhetoric today falls foul of Christian moral teaching. …

Maybe the concept of allow them to work here thus becoming tax payers, reduce labor inflation issues, and keep them in fear of the legal system is the plan? If they were perceived as conservative voters the plan might change, however if they are perceived as liberal voters the current status is more desirable.

 

[Ender]

I think that the Catholic Church does a very good job of articulating what the moral claims of immigrants are, and as I understand the Catholic Church’s position it leaves a lot of room for disagreement.

Key point here …

What it doesn’t leave room for is {racism} … or that they deserve to be punished without mercy … This latter issue seems to me to be where much “conservative” rhetoric today falls foul of Christian moral teaching. There is nothing wrong with an “amnesty” that retrospectively lets illegal immigrants off the hook. There is no moral requirement to make them “get to the back of the line” because they came here illegally. Nothing about Christian morality requires this.

“Punished without mercy” and “sent home” don’t actually seem to have anything in common and the question is not whether Christian morality requires them to be sent home but whether it forbids it. (See the first point).

It needs to be recognized that there is no “Church” position on this question.

Ender

 

[CatholicLeft]

The real crime being committed in the illegal immigration problem is not the illegal aliens crossing the border, It’s the American corporations that hire and exploits them. If we crack down on companies that hire illegal immigrants, their jobs would dry up and they would have no reason to cross the border. Simple huh?

 

[pnewton]

It needs to be recognized that there is no “Church” position on this question.

Ender

That is the one thing we should all agree on. There are many moral principles that apply, but the problem is so complex that orthodox Catholics can come to very differint conclusions. I am on the more tolerant side, yet it goes against my sense of justice to allow those that cheat the immigration system a jump in line over those that obey immigration laws. My preference would be for a solid, tight border, followed by open, if monitored, immigration. That way anyone could come over that wanted to work without sneaking in and we could know who they are. It would also make it easier to crackdown on those still sneaking across, as the only motivation to do that would be because one would otherwise be barred at the border (a criminal, for instance).

 

[tqualey]

Hi Contarini,

I would certainly appreciate a reference or two on this, “… well articulated position on illegal immigrants”. I am personally confused by the issue.

I think that the Catholic Church does a very good job of articulating what the moral claims of immigrants are, and as I understand the Catholic Church’s position it leaves a lot of room for disagreement.

The various positions presented…
1-) keep them out unless they comply with US immigration law
2-) maintain human dignity
3-) the economy needs illegal immigrants - and employers who defraud these illegals have profited very well
4-) the economy is distorted by people being paid off of the books
5-) those who go through the immigration system are foolish
6-) a country has the right to secure boarders.
7-) those fleeing oppression or wanting a better life should be able to simply enter
Illegals are/are not more inclined to murdering US nationals.
9-) Illegals take very few benefits / take a disproportionate share of benefits while paying little/much in taxes

…are a basic confusing heap of competing, conflicted and tortured logic - like the famous poem of the blind men describing an elephant: wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/1

We seem to have a US Congress that refuses to vote on the matter - yet, it and the Federal Judicary gets upset when the individual States try to enforce federal laws on immigration. Surely, there is a lapse of moraity in this position as glaring as in the previously stated list.

As I appreciate the situation, we need a clear and enforced policy - and not a collection of anecdotal stories that identify some imperfection (large or small) about how human being apply laws. I think wwe have a policy - unfortunately, neither clear or uniformly enforced that may be at the crux of this issue.

Have a blessed day.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

I agree they are moving up as they do work hard and will continue to take more jobs even in white collar positions. Without their impact we would have had ~10 million more unemployed which would have been a bigger problem over the past few years…
The other point is they have a very elite rich part of their population and a very poor part with little in the middle (where we seem to be headed). The majority of people make much less than the statistics would say so the numbers I remember are factory worker here $17 factory work across the border $2. I would be jumped the border with that difference. We have factories in Mexico, Brazil and Poland and agree similar demographics.

Just doesn’t seem right to stop someone from trying to work to provide for their family. Certainly better than us just sending a big “relief” check to Mexico like we do so many countries.

This is false. Illegals are very heavily represented in the construction industry and take many jobs Americans would like to have, especially now with so many people losing their jobs and their homes. It is certainly true that illegals are also heavily represented in lower paying jobs but it is a mistake to imply that these are pretty much the only jobs they take.

Mexico has the second highest average individual income in all of Central and South America. Theirs is the 12th largest economy in the world; they are a solidly upper middle class nation in the same league as Poland and Turkey.

Ender

 

[Ender]

I agree they are moving up as they do work hard and will continue to take more jobs even in white collar positions. Without their impact we would have had ~10 million more unemployed …

I’m trying to understand how you can claim that having more people compete for existing jobs lessens rather than increases unemployment. I recall a situation in Colorado a few years ago where a processing plant was raided and roughly 130 illegals were removed. Within a week there were 500 applications from citizens looking for those same jobs. The aspect of this discussion that offends me the most is that typically there is no consideration whatever given to the rights of the people living in the communities affected by illegals.

The other point is they {Mexico} have a very elite rich part of their population and a very poor part with little in the middle (where we seem to be headed).

This is true. It is also true of practically every country in Central and South America and does not change the fact that, relative to all (but one) of the countries south of her, Mexicans are better off so the question remains: why should we take the vast majority of all immigrants from the country that needs our help the least?

Just doesn’t seem right to stop someone from trying to work to provide for their family.

What is true for a single family doesn’t scale without limit to millions of families. At some point the door has to close - or are you saying that literally everyone in the world (terrorists excepted) who wants to come to the US should be allowed entry?

Ender

 

[Dale_M]

I recall a situation in Colorado a few years ago where a processing plant was raided and roughly 130 illegals were removed. Within a week there were 500 applications from citizens looking for those same jobs

I’m not familiar with that plant or how it is doing today, but here in Iowa we went through a big ICE raid (about 400 arrested) on a meatpacking plant in Postville. The plant has never recovered, for a lot of reasons, but one of the main ones is that they couldn’t get enough workers.

 

[Oscarthecat]

This is false. Illegals are very heavily represented in the construction industry and take many jobs Americans would like to have, especially now with so many people losing their jobs and their homes.
Ender

Illegals are “taking” jobs from Americans because Americans aren’t willing to accept lower pay, fewer/no benefits, and a step down in their accustomed working conditions.

The bottom line is that businesses save money by hiring illegals because it allows them to avoid costly government taxes and regulations.

If you want more americans to get work, then two things need to happen:
-the american government and the unionized labor groups (as if there’s any difference between the two) have to back off so that american businesses can afford to hire american workers again.
-the american worker needs to come to terms with the fact that people living right next door to them are willing to earn less money to do their job.

This is exactly the reason the american auto industry is going down the toilet. The workers are choking the life out of the industry by demanding a level of compensation that is not competitive in the world market.

 

[Ender]

Illegals are “taking” jobs from Americans because Americans aren’t willing to accept lower pay, fewer/no benefits, and a step down in their accustomed working conditions.

This is true. When companies have lots of people competing for a limited number of jobs they can get people to work for lower pay. Since low pay for an American is still high pay for an immigrant the immigrant is happy to take the low paying job. If there were fewer people looking for those jobs companies would have to compete for workers by offering better salaries. The constant influx of illegals continually depresses the salaries companies have to offer to find workers.

The bottom line is that businesses save money by hiring illegals because it allows them to avoid costly government taxes and regulations.

True again, and once again, the losers are the American workers.

Ender

 

[Bullfighter]

Without the illegals we would really be hurting as a country. They end up paying most of the taxes everyone else pays but get only a fraction of the benefits. Income tax is the only tax they may or may not pay. They take the lowest jobs and work faithfully. They are moving up in our society. They fill up our Catholic church and are very active. The country is ~98% Catholic. The real problem is the standard of living across the border south. The last I heard deep in Mexico $0.50/hour was going rate. I think we should have a way for them to come across legally and collect the income taxes also. Immigration has always helped this country.

There are a few bad apples.

Sadly, we have killed 50M from abortions in the past 45 years and they have helped make up the difference.

Immigration helped this country when the immigrant helped himself and not drained our resources.

Immigration helped this country when it wasn’t easy to buy fake IDs to set up phony credit to buy homes, cars, clothes, food while the America poor starve for lack of resources.

I know. I’m one of the forgotten Americans who live in a town that has been overrun by these people.

Where do you get your information? Straight from Mexico I’ll bet. You can’t trust the lies that have been printed on Catholic websites as I have exposed these lies over and over.

The Archdiocese of Chicago had a booklet that was available to parishioners when the Catholic Campaign for Human Development collection was taken. I took one home and couldn’t believe my eyes.

A short description for each organization followed the amount of money awarded. The word most used in each was Latino or immigrant. It should be noted that $520,000 was collected and I guess a few dollars might have found its way into the hands of the real American poor, but I doubt it.

These can be verified by going on those websites and doing some research.

Everything you said is absolutely backwards.

Each child that the illegal produced on this side of the border must be taken care of by American resources. In my town that now has a 80% foreign population, the average money spent on each child in the public school system is around $12,000/year.

8years of education times $12,000, then 4 years of 9-12 at $16,000=$160,000. and that is just education at todays rates. And my town has over 18,000 students with an enrollment that is 92% Hispanic which most claim to be below the poverty level.

More than quarter of a million dollars that will never be recovered and American poor are starving and freezing on the streets of Chicago as Mexicans blow through the resources that American taxpayers spent their lives accumulating for their own families. Is that justice to YOU?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bullfighter,

You sound very distressed.

You have raised some distressing issues - not least of which is mismanagement of money from the Chicago Archdiocese.

Would you kindly share the web addresses you used to gather your information?

Thank you and God Bless

 

[Bullfighter]

Hi, Bullfighter,

You sound very distressed.

You have raised some distressing issues - not least of which is mismanagement of money from the Chicago Archdiocese.

Would you kindly share the web addresses you used to gather your information?

Thank you and God Bless

I am more than happy to provide you with them.

You’ll have to do some math yourself for the school websites though it is pretty straight forward.

This will take you to the annual report for 2008:
archchicago.org/departments/peace_and_justice/pdf/cchd/2008/CCHD_AnnualReport_2008.pdf

This will take you to the main page so you can view other reports
archchicago.org/departments/peace_and_justice/cchd.shtm

This is a propaganda site that has nothing but favorable views on immigration yet doesn’t show you any of the negative impact on the US.
justiceforimmigrants.org/

The website for the elementary schools mentioned
iirc.niu.edu/District.aspx?districtID=14016099002

The two websites for the high schools mentioned
iirc.niu.edu/School.aspx?schoolID=140162010170003

iirc.niu.edu/School.aspx?schoolID=140162010170001

I just did a total for all students in that area

There are 13,552 elementary students enrolled at $12,580/ student for a total of $170,484,160.

There are 4,761 secondary students enrolled at $16,716./ student for a total of $79,584,876.

The grand total comes to $250,069,036.00. A quarter of a billion dollars spent. 3 out of 4 graduate high school and it’s getting worse. Enjoy the education!

 

[Annn]

So children should be punished for their parents’ illegal actions and not be educated?

 

[FK04US]

It’s not complicated to take a Catholic stand on this. We just have to look at the greatest commandments of all:

“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

And let’s look at who Jesus says our neighbor is: You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Matthew 5:43)

Seems like many supposedly devote Catholics in this forum are forgetting Our Lord’s words. Looks like only Americans and legal immigrants qualify as a our neighbors. Please go back to your CCD 101 classes and start loving and helping, and stop the hate.

“I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.” Source: JESUS, Son of the Father, Our God.