How to teach kids to respect authority without becoming unquestioning robots

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I have a question that I would like your (name removed by moderator)ut on, especially if you have children of your own. Practically speaking, how do we find the balance between teaching kids to respect and obey authority, while training them to become adults who use their own minds? My thought is that we need to ground them with a solid moral framework based on our faith, and gradually, as they get older and prove themselves responsible, give them more freedom and allow them to make more decisions on their own–but I am interested to hear from parents how you have done this, practically speaking. How do you help your kids turn into critically thinking adults? (Helping them gain a life-long love of reading is one way that comes to my mind.)

Here is the incident that prompted me thinking about this: I overheard my brother-in-law having a talk with his 9-year-old son, my nephew. My nephew “Calvin,” a highly intelligent little guy who has been obsessed with technology since toddlerhood, keeps begging his dad to update the family computer to Windows 10 (or whatever the latest version is). His dad replied that they are not going to get the update because there are problems with it and that Calvin needs to stop asking (a perfectly reasonable response). But then his dad went on a whole long lecture, telling him that the reason Calvin keeps on begging for the update is that Calvin doesn’t respect his dad’s judgment and thinks he (Calvin) knows more about technology than his dad. He kept going on about how people in authority always know best and that Calvin needs to learn not to question authority.

As I type, it occurs to me that the reason this incident made me cringe is that my brother-in-law, Calvin’s dad, comes from a Independent Fundamental Baptist background (similar to my own background but more extreme). IFB adherents are very big on never questioning what you have been taught and basically programming your mind to shut down that voice in the back of your head that tells you something isn’t right. For myself, it has only been as an adult in my mid-to-late 20s that I have gradually learned to listen to my instincts again and voice questions when I have them. I don’t want to interfere in other people’s parenting, but I would hate to see my smart and curious nephews shut down that way.
 
I taught my girls to think for themselves, but thoughtfully entering dialogs with them in age appropriate terms.
My first thought when reading your post was “Why does this guy believe he needs to justify his decisions to a child”?
Some children, when their parents decide they are very bright, begin blurring the lines between child/adult.
This sets up a soon to be VERY disappointing relationship. It’s not about control, being a robot, or cowering under another’s thumb.
Respect and patience temper these issues IF…and only IF the child believes
  1. that the adults have their best interests at heart
  2. the adult makes it clear, that rules do not always confine…sometimes they liberate.
If I get up late for work, I’d LOVE to run a red light. But the rules are there for the protection of all.
I didn’t necessarily explain every thing and every decision to them. But if they questioned me, I was clear and brief. No reason to let something ruin an evening, or get into something that likely was not going to be changed after a lot of discussion.
At some point, I was mama, and they moved on.
The respect was the patience and the love with which they saw and heard in my approach. I seldom have ever raised my voice. In fact, they, and my students tend to say that I have mastered “The Catholic School STARE”. LOL 😃
 
Well EnglishTeacher. Here’s the thing. Now first of all you need to listen to me. And obey what I say. Because I’ve given you that command. So resistance is futile. And stuff like that.

But seriously. What I’d suggest we tell kids is that they should respect everyone. But not follow anyone blindly. I mean they should have the common respect not to think that their childish brain has more experience than that of an adult. But they should also figure that just because someone says a thing it’s time to shut down the thinking circuits and just follow in. So no. The way forward is to teach that everyone deserves respect. That problems should be talked through quietly and patiently. With courtesy. That they should approach a reasonable-looking adult with the assumption that there’s a method to what they do. That these things are done with a purpose. So carefully consider that purpose before making suggestions on how to fix it.

I don’t know. I mean I think I have to stop here. Because I’m losing my train of thought. And someone coming along reading this later will just think I was low on sleep when I wrote this. Because. Well. I’m pretty low on sleep right now.

So I mean if a kid came up to me now. And asked me a really deep question. I’d expect him to show me the proper respect he should. By waiting until he was out of earshot before laughing out loud at my poorly thought-out response. :rolleyes:

I guess.

Peace EnglishTeacher. Please don’t look at my grammar. Or sentence structure. Or anything.

-Trident
 
EnglishTeacher said:
I have a question that I would like your (name removed by moderator)ut on, especially if you have children of your own. Practically speaking, how do we find the balance between teaching kids to respect and obey authority, while training them to become adults who use their own minds? My thought is that we need to ground them with a solid moral framework based on our faith, and gradually, as they get older and prove themselves responsible, give them more freedom and allow them to make more decisions on their own–but I am interested to hear from parents how you have done this, practically speaking. How do you help your kids turn into critically thinking adults? (Helping them gain a life-long love of reading is one way that comes to my mind.)

Here is the incident that prompted me thinking about this: I overheard my brother-in-law having a talk with his 9-year-old son, my nephew. My nephew “Calvin,” a highly intelligent little guy who has been obsessed with technology since toddlerhood, keeps begging his dad to update the family computer to Windows 10 (or whatever the latest version is). His dad replied that they are not going to get the update because there are problems with it and that Calvin needs to stop asking (a perfectly reasonable response). But then his dad went on a whole long lecture, telling him that the reason Calvin keeps on begging for the update is that Calvin doesn’t respect his dad’s judgment and thinks he (Calvin) knows more about technology than his dad. He kept going on about how people in authority always know best and that Calvin needs to learn not to question authority.

As I type, it occurs to me that the reason this incident made me cringe is that my brother-in-law, Calvin’s dad, comes from a Independent Fundamental Baptist background (similar to my own background but more extreme). IFB adherents are very big on never questioning what you have been taught and basically programming your mind to shut down that voice in the back of your head that tells you something isn’t right. For myself, it has only been as an adult in my mid-to-late 20s that I have gradually learned to listen to my instincts again and voice questions when I have them. I don’t want to interfere in other people’s parenting, but I would hate to see my smart and curious nephews shut down that way.
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Oh dear.

This is something that I also feel strongly about.

I think your theory about increasing freedom is very good, although since my oldest is only 13, we haven’t had an opportunity for a full trial of the theory.

What we tell our kids is that authority is LIMITED. So, while they are supposed to obey their teachers and principals with regard to academic type things, if the principal were to tell them to steal candy for her, they shouldn’t do it, as that’s beyond the scope of her authority.

You might ask BIL (nicely and out of earshot of kids and if you think it would do any good) whether his system isn’t setting Calvin up to accept abuse, if authorities are always to be obeyed and never to be questioned.
 
Xantippe said:
Oh dear.

This is something that I also feel strongly about.

I think your theory about increasing freedom is very good, although since my oldest is only 13, we haven’t had an opportunity for a full trial of the theory.

What we tell our kids is that authority is LIMITED. So, while they are supposed to obey their teachers and principals with regard to academic type things, if the principal were to tell them to steal candy for her, they shouldn’t do it, as that’s beyond the scope of her authority.

You might ask BIL (nicely and out of earshot of kids and if you think it would do any good) whether his system isn’t setting Calvin up to accept abuse, if authorities are always to be obeyed and never to be questioned.
Click to expand...
Well yeah. But I was thinking more in term of respecting one’s parents.
Every child should be given permission to let another adult know when things are just not right. They should have every tool available to be able to report abusive behavior and all of us should LISTEN.
 
pianistclare said:
I taught my girls to think for themselves, but thoughtfully entering dialogs with them in age appropriate terms.
My first thought when reading your post was “Why does this guy believe he needs to justify his decisions to a child”?
Some children, when their parents decide they are very bright, begin blurring the lines between child/adult.
This sets up a soon to be VERY disappointing relationship. It’s not about control, being a robot, or cowering under another’s thumb.
Respect and patience temper these issues IF…and only IF the child believes
  1. that the adults have their best interests at heart
  2. the adult makes it clear, that rules do not always confine…sometimes they liberate.
If I get up late for work, I’d LOVE to run a red light. But the rules are there for the protection of all.
I didn’t necessarily explain every thing and every decision to them. But if they questioned me, I was clear and brief. No reason to let something ruin an evening, or get into something that likely was not going to be changed after a lot of discussion.
At some point, I was mama, and they moved on.
The respect was the patience and the love with which they saw and heard in my approach. I seldom have ever raised my voice. In fact, they, and my students tend to say that I have mastered “The Catholic School STARE”. LOL 😃
Click to expand...
Well stated.
 
pianistclare said:
Well yeah. But I was thinking more in term of respecting one’s parents.
Every child should be given permission to let another adult know when things are just not right. They should have every tool available to be able to report abusive behavior and all of us should LISTEN.
Click to expand...
👍
 
My child is two years old and I already have the distinct impression that a mindless robot of a daughter is not in my future no matter what I do. I’m hoping that I can get her to respect legitimate authority and discern the difference between a good and bad influence. Suggestions welcome.
 
Allegra said:
My child is two years old and I already have the distinct impression that a mindless robot of a daughter is not in my future no matter what I do. I’m hoping that I can get her to respect legitimate authority and discern the difference between a good and bad influence. Suggestions welcome.
Click to expand...
:rotfl:
 
EnglishTeacher said:
I have a question that I would like your (name removed by moderator)ut on, especially if you have children of your own. Practically speaking, how do we find the balance between teaching kids to respect and obey authority, while training them to become adults who use their own minds? My thought is that we need to ground them with a solid moral framework based on our faith, and gradually, as they get older and prove themselves responsible, give them more freedom and allow them to make more decisions on their own–but I am interested to hear from parents how you have done this, practically speaking. How do you help your kids turn into critically thinking adults? (Helping them gain a life-long love of reading is one way that comes to my mind.)

Here is the incident that prompted me thinking about this: I overheard my brother-in-law having a talk with his 9-year-old son, my nephew. My nephew “Calvin,” a highly intelligent little guy who has been obsessed with technology since toddlerhood, keeps begging his dad to update the family computer to Windows 10 (or whatever the latest version is). His dad replied that they are not going to get the update because there are problems with it and that Calvin needs to stop asking (a perfectly reasonable response). But then his dad went on a whole long lecture, telling him that the reason Calvin keeps on begging for the update is that Calvin doesn’t respect his dad’s judgment and thinks he (Calvin) knows more about technology than his dad. He kept going on about how people in authority always know best and that Calvin needs to learn not to question authority.

As I type, it occurs to me that the reason this incident made me cringe is that my brother-in-law, Calvin’s dad, comes from a Independent Fundamental Baptist background (similar to my own background but more extreme). IFB adherents are very big on never questioning what you have been taught and basically programming your mind to shut down that voice in the back of your head that tells you something isn’t right. For myself, it has only been as an adult in my mid-to-late 20s that I have gradually learned to listen to my instincts again and voice questions when I have them. I don’t want to interfere in other people’s parenting, but I would hate to see my smart and curious nephews shut down that way.
Click to expand...
Well, your smart and curious nephew also needs to learn how to approach recalcitrance in authority figures in a way that has some realistic chances of success–starting with understanding what “success” even means. One of the things I have taught my children is to become students of the point of view of the person who can grant or deny them what they want. They need to think about how to define “success,” and then they need to choose their strategies based on both ethics and the practical goal of getting what they want.

Were I Calvin’s mother, I might take him aside after this interchange and ask him how he felt about it. He might be angry, he might be discouraged, he might be hurt, or he might be totally unperturbed at what he sees as just one day’s work in a war of attrition. How I decided to talk to him would have everything to do with his response to this first question. I’m warming up to talk to Calvin about seeing things from someone else’s point of view and seeing his conversations with others in terms of relationships and creating a general perception of win-win, rather than just “how do I get a win for myself?” I can hardly do that without letting Calvin see that I practice what I preach. I might easily see that now is NOT the time to help Calvin see the big picture.

Then I would coach him on a) really listening to what his dad had to say, and considering whether or not a negative response was the correct response, since we ought to cultivate the recognition that sometimes other people can help us to see where we are blind and then b) how he thought his dad viewed the interchange. After the mental exercise of putting himself in his dad’s shoes, I’d ask him to imagine how his dad’s thinking had changed or not changed because of Calvin’s stab at persuasion. I’d ask Calvin to consider what the ploy cost and what it gained him. What about his dad? Was this conversation a win or a loss for him? After that, I’d ask Calvin to think about whether he ought to keep trying and if so whether or not a change of strategy was in order.
 
Allegra said:
My child is two years old and I already have the distinct impression that a mindless robot of a daughter is not in my future no matter what I do. I’m hoping that I can get her to respect legitimate authority and discern the difference between a good and bad influence. Suggestions welcome.
Click to expand...
Teach her which side her bread is buttered on. It is better to have people hand you want you want and think you’ve done them a favor than to have them resent you for taking something away against their will. Blunt domination is rarely the correct way to get what you want. Persuasion and seeking a win-win are far better long-term strategies, and far more empathetic, not to mention more supportive of relationships of love and mutual care.

In other words, when you have a bulldozer, teach her that she was put on this earth to build roads.
 
First, I think encouraging kids in decisions that are harmless helps build their confidence in making their own decisions. I remember when I was 10 my friend 'Jane’s mom took us to the store. We had a field trip the next day at school and Mom was going to by Jane a pack of gum. Jane chose the orange flavor gum, her mom talked her out of it saying ‘When I was 10 that was the last flavor I would choose’. I was horrified. In my house ‘You are being treated to a pack of gum’ meant I could choose. Now that I am an adult, I am even more horrified that an adult would actually care which gum her daughter chose. Not to mention it probably squashed Jane’s ability to make her own decisions

As for dad telling ‘Calvin’ that authority knows best. My first thought…dad is fed up with always having to say ‘no’ to the same request and caved in frustration and gave the ‘lecture’ why Calvin should listen to authority. I agree it was not a healthy lecture, but I am cutting dad some slack because I don’t even want to thin about what it would be like to have a kid constantly ask for something I said ‘no’ to several times

All you can do is be the best person you can be and pray you are setting a good example for Calvin. But honestly, to mention to an adult you disagree with their child upbringing is really just asking or a fight.
 
Anglewannabe said:
First, I think encouraging kids in decisions that are harmless helps build their confidence in making their own decisions. I remember when I was 10 my friend 'Jane’s mom took us to the store. We had a field trip the next day at school and Mom was going to by Jane a pack of gum. Jane chose the orange flavor gum, her mom talked her out of it saying ‘When I was 10 that was the last flavor I would choose’. I was horrified. In my house ‘You are being treated to a pack of gum’ meant I could choose. Now that I am an adult, I am even more horrified that an adult would actually care which gum her daughter chose. Not to mention it probably squashed Jane’s ability to make her own decisions

As for dad telling ‘Calvin’ that authority knows best. My first thought…dad is fed up with always having to say ‘no’ to the same request and caved in frustration and gave the ‘lecture’ why Calvin should listen to authority. I agree it was not a healthy lecture, but I am cutting dad some slack because I don’t even want to thin about what it would be like to have a kid constantly ask for something I said ‘no’ to several times

All you can do is be the best person you can be and pray you are setting a good example for Calvin. But honestly, to mention to an adult you disagree with their child upbringing is really just asking or a fight.
Click to expand...
The gum story is really bad.

I think Calvin’s dad could have said something along the lines, this is my computer and I’m going to do what I think best. When you are all grown up and are buying your own electronics, you can do what you think is best.

I actually have similar conversations with my oldest where I’m mentioning some home improvement or decorating plan that I have that my 13-year-old disapproves of (for instance paint color–Big Girl likes our existing pink color scheme while I have long-term plans to de-pink our home). In that situation I say something like, “This is my house and I get to decide stuff about how it looks. When you’re all grown up, you can have a home of your own and fix it up the way you like.” So I’m holding out her future independence in front of her, but making it clear that she doesn’t get veto power over home improvements.
 
Xantippe said:
The gum story is really bad…
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For the record, you mean what Jane’s mom did was bad, right ? You don’t actually think the story in itself is bad 😃
Xantippe said:
In that situation I say something like, “This is my house and I get to decide stuff about how it looks. When you’re all grown up, you can have a home of your own and fix it up the way you like.” So I’m holding out her future independence in front of her, but making it clear that she doesn’t get veto power over home improvements.
Click to expand...
Yes, that is a good way of doing it. It is what my mom did. Now that I am all grown up she says ‘Well, you are grown up but I think it is a bad decision’ 😃
 
EasterJoy said:
Teach her which side her bread is buttered on. It is better to have people hand you want you want and think you’ve done them a favor than to have them resent you for taking something away against their will. Blunt domination is rarely the correct way to get what you want. Persuasion and seeking a win-win are far better long-term strategies, and far more empathetic, not to mention more supportive of relationships of love and mutual care.

In other words, when you have a bulldozer, teach her that she was put on this earth to build roads.
Click to expand...
This advice is very metaphorical.
 
Anglewannabe said:
First, I think encouraging kids in decisions that are harmless helps build their confidence in making their own decisions. I remember when I was 10 my friend 'Jane’s mom took us to the store. We had a field trip the next day at school and Mom was going to by Jane a pack of gum. Jane chose the orange flavor gum, her mom talked her out of it saying ‘When I was 10 that was the last flavor I would choose’. I was horrified. In my house ‘You are being treated to a pack of gum’ meant I could choose. Now that I am an adult, I am even more horrified that an adult would actually care which gum her daughter chose. Not to mention it probably squashed Jane’s ability to make her own decisions

As for dad telling ‘Calvin’ that authority knows best. My first thought…dad is fed up with always having to say ‘no’ to the same request and caved in frustration and gave the ‘lecture’ why Calvin should listen to authority. I agree it was not a healthy lecture, but I am cutting dad some slack because I don’t even want to thin about what it would be like to have a kid constantly ask for something I said ‘no’ to several times

All you can do is be the best person you can be and pray you are setting a good example for Calvin. But honestly, to mention to an adult you disagree with their child upbringing is really just asking or a fight.
Click to expand...
The gum thing sounds like something my mother would have told me. And I would have said, “Good. Then you won’t be stealing mine.” I guess the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
 
Allegra said:
This advice is very metaphorical.
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What you want to avoid is teaching her that her strong will is a bad thing. Likewise, she should not come to believe that she is entitled to take more because she is more capable of taking more. Her temperament is, rather, a powerful force, a gift, a charism.
 
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