How to trust the church/scripture over science

[3DOCTORS]

Indeed, the Church does not have to be, and sometimes is not right about psychology, cosmology, history, biology, etc. the church only has authority in regards to Faith and Morals.

But there are a few instances where they overlap. To reference the OPs original issues Adam & Eve, Homosexuality as a choice, free will, etc., these are areas where the faith requires certain scientific truths to be present. As someone who has worked in academia, I’ve considered this before. Faith describes reality, and science also describes reality. However, truth received by revelation will always be more accurate, because science itself is an ever-evolving series of models that become closer approximations of reality (I.e.- our understanding of atoms).

So, to respond to OP, I’ve struggled with this before too, and found if you ask questions and find answers you will learn to rest more and more of your confidence on it. Take heart!

I like this thoughtful way of putting it. It sounds just a bit strange to say “the Church is not right,” though - I’d maybe phrase it more along the lines of “the Church views these sciences through the eyes of faith” which suggests an incorporation rather than an opposition. But I don’t want to hair-split the semantics too much. I still fall back on being open to mystery - not as a cop-out - but as a way of acknowledging how incredibly amazing God’s Creation is, and how even more - infinitely - incredibly amazing God Himself is!

Good post, thanks! :clapping:

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Hi I’m having a hard time staying strong in the faith. I don’t lose my faith but it is definitely tested by all kinds of difference scientific theories trying to disprove things such as a higher power (God), free will, literal Adam and Eve, homosexuality as a choice, etc. etc.

These are all things that if even one was proven false. The whole faith would be false. Thats scary in my opinion because without Jesus being God and having the Catholic Church to have faith in I would be a wreck…

Even the Jehovah Witnesses think the Watchtower is infallible but yet we claim them to be wrong. What makes us different then them when we say the Holy See is infallible?

I just was wondering if there is some advice on trusting the word of God and the church over a harmful scientific theory…no matter how strong the evidence is.

You are right. A lot that you hear about science can often shake a person’s faith. In today’s world science is elevated by some to a pedestal that seems to compete with religion.

But this doesn’t mean that science is the cause of the problem. Sometimes it is who we are getting our science from and how often we put too much trust in our own logic to define what we as Catholics believe.

Take it from a guy who is a scientist, a Roman Catholic and a former Jehovah’s Witness: science is not the enemy. It’s more than often non-scientists who repeat and reinterpret scientific information that cause the real problem. Let me demonstrate.

• You often hear Christians say that the theory of evolution is wrong because it teaches that God did not create humans. That is incorrect. The evolution model teaches that organisms evolve over time and that all life comes from a central source. It doesn’t describe how life got here, just what life seems to be doing. The misunderstanding about evolution is that people have been told what it is about but have not learned it for themselves. The actual scientific model has nothing to do with answering the questions of how we got here or why we are here or “Is there a God”? But people on both sides of the issue still wrongly believe it does.
• **Just because a scientist shares data does not mean he believes in the data or theory. **For example, I am sure some of you believe that because I wrote the previous statement regarding evolution that I support and advance the idea. But in all truth there is a difference between my convictions regarding evolution and my reporting it. People often confuse reporting something as voicing support for the same. It isn’t. In fact you have no idea what my opinion is regarding evolution because I did not share it here. People jump to wrong conclusions about science and what others believe about science all the time.
• Science is a method to understanding things, not a field of a study. It employs analysis and critical thinking techniques and demands that those employing the method do so under scrutiny of others. It’s just a way of coming to a conclusion, but is not limited to any subject in particular. Unfortunately most think science is limited to subjects that are contrary to Scripture. Nope.
• Bible translations would be impossible without science. The first printed Bible was made possible by employing several scientific methods simultaneously (and today most are printed by means of “lithography,” a form of printing based on the scientific theory that water and oil do not mix). Without employing sciences like etymology and archeology the Dead Sea Scrolls would have never been able to be understood. Science in itself is just a tool, not a subject.
• **And finally your statement: “These are all things that if even one was proven false. The whole faith would be false. Thats scary in my opinion.” **This is what is known in logic as a non sequitur thought trap. You are trying to make religion fit a preconceived model that is illogical. It’s one Jehovah’s Witnesses employ, but it is not one Catholicism uses…and for very good reason.

Truths as revealed from God are not limited by our scope of understanding. They are not a “house of cards” that will fall if one point proves false. You see our faith is not built on any single doctrine or set of dogmas or theology or even our understanding of these things. Our faith is built on a Person, on Jesus Christ.

The central point to which all the tenets of our faith and religion point to is Jesus, the Son of God, our Lord and Savior, God Incarnate. All truth is built on Him. Our doctrines (or better yet, our understanding of our doctrines) may need adjustment from time to time, and even what the methodology of science reveals can and has aided in this over the centuries.

But since our faith is based on Jesus and not what we individually or as a group believes in, it is not limited to one point or another. Jesus Christ cannot be proven false by methods of thought devised by humans, science or otherwise, because as God, Jesus is the standard by which all else gets measured. Our God is more than we can comprehend and transcends our methods which we can invent and employ to try to understand him.

I feel you are trying to limit God and the religion he reveals through his Church to what doctrines we believe in. We are not like Jehovah’s Witnesses who claim to have a religion based on the Bible. We are Christians whose religion is based on Jesus Christ. The Bible is based on our religion, not the other way around. Our faith is not limited to what can be found in a book, even the most holiest of Books. Our faith is based on Jesus, on God, and there are no limits to Him.

 

[grannymh]

When we speak about natural science, we have to add that the authority is nature itself.

Scientific knowledge is based on the primary principle of observation without prejudice. The scientific (inductive) method takes what is observable and analyzes this evidence from A to Z. Hypotheses are formed and then tested from different approaches. Eventually, conclusions warranted from the presented evidence are published in a paper.

Natural science is a gift from God which has benefited humanity. Sincere scientists are worthy of the public’s respect.

When it comes to studying nature as it existed thousands of years going backwards, assumptions based on current information are used. Probable explanations of ancient events are acceptable. However, probable explanations cannot rule out every possibility. Think Australian black swans.

When it comes to studying the human person thousands of years going backwards, science exploration is restricted to the physical/material world. This is why it is often said that science cannot comment on the spiritual world of a transcendent, supernatural, pure spirit being aka God. But science can comment on the physical/material decomposing anatomy of the modern human person especially in the medical arena.

From the Catholic position, the difficulty with science arises when a particular theory intersects with Catholic doctrine. Currently, the development of species is based on a population which diverges into separate lines which eventually distinguish a horse population from a cow population. This theory is based on current relationships between species.

By 1950, Pope Pius XII, brilliantly recognized that the transfer of the biological reality of diverging animal and plant population sources to human origin directly opposed the Catholic doctrine that the human species descended from two, sole, fully human founders.

Link to Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII, 1950, sections 35, 36, 37
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html

Link to recent Catholic information in the Catholic Homiletic & Pastoral Review.
hprweb.com/2014/07/time-to-abandon-the-genesis-story/

 

[grannymh]

Our faith is built on a Person, on Jesus Christ.

The central point to which all the tenets of our faith and religion point to is Jesus, the Son of God, our Lord and Savior, God Incarnate. All truth is built on Him.

Thank you.

All truth is found in the Catholic Church as established by Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. The true fullness of Divinity of Jesus is crucial in this age when some, not all, Christian faiths consider Jesus as an important [human] prophet among a list of historical prophets.

I am reminded of my first adult book on the life of Jesus Christ which I read with intensity. I was in the middle of the chapter on the multiplication of five loaves and two fish. (Matthew 14; 13-21; Mark 6: 30-44, etc.) when I recognized that the Divinity of Jesus was being diminished by implying that people in the crowd acted neighborly.
It is obviously sad when we realize that lessoning the Divinity of Jesus Christ leads people away from chapter 6, the Gospel of John.

Staying in touch with John, we find that his affirmation of the complete Divinity of Jesus continues to the Last Supper. There, we find that Jesus promises the Divinity of the Holy Spirit to His Church. (Chapter 14, Gospel of John)

Over the centuries, we find many Christians who have left the theological sanctity found in Catholicism. Yes, they still follow Jesus; but they do not profess all of His necessary teachings which are preserved in the Catholic Church.

Catholic doctrines cannot be adjusted to fit someone’s contemporary thinking. It is the province of the visible Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church to make completed Divine Revelation more explicit. With the wisdom and guidance of the promised Holy Spirit (primarily major Catholic Church Councils), the Catholic Church has gradually and formally grasped the full significance of Divine Revelation completed in Jesus Christ.
(Information source. *CCC *65-67)

Correctly, we believe that there are no limits to Jesus Christ because He is fully Divine. Being Divine, Jesus Christ established His Catholic Church on earth which is the only church which teaches the fullness of Divine Revelation.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I had a thought come to me this morning - wasn’t even thinking about this thread, it was just a random thought. But it actually fits quite nicely, so I’ll share it.

I’m guessing it was around the time of the “Enlightenment” when if science seemed to contradict religion, people felt pressured to choose sides. And the sort of “Modernism” that popes in the 19th Century condemned is another example. Again, science seemed to provide irreconcilable “proofs” against religion. So more and more natural scientists - and historians, sociologists, psychologists and those type of scientists or scholars - felt they must become secular in their worldview.

But the thing is, when you put on those secularized glasses, and you find something that’s outside of traditional morals, instead of saying it’s an exception, you posit that the world needs to adopt the same secular approach and mentality and change the moral code to fit. One example I remember from some vague past was an argument that men are not hardwired to be monogamous. So . . . do we just say “There you go, cheat on your wife with impunity!” Or do we look at it through our Faith’s teaching and say - this is part of fallen human nature and you may face temptations - but that doesn’t exempt you from following the 6th Commandment?

 

[edwest2]

Scientific theories which are the products of human intellects can be in error where as Holy Scripture which is the word of God is without error because its principle author is the Holy Spirit who is God. It is also the Holy Spirit who guides the Catholic Church to all truth as Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”

God is the creator of the universe and He is the author of all the true scientific knowledge we can gather from created things. God is also the author of divine revelation. Since God is the author of both divine revelation and philosophical or scientific knowledge, the two cannot be in contradiction to each other. Where there may appear to be a contradiction, we must rely on divine revelation as divine revelation is the word of God and it is certain and without error. Divine revelation also gives us knowledge about the world, mankind and God which is inaccessible to the natural light of reason and science such as the Trinity, the incarnation of the Son of God, the creation of the world in time, the ultimate end of human beings which consists in the beatific vision, etc.

The issue is that there is an overlap. The Church can learn all the details of embryonic stem cell research in order to understand it and in order to explain to the faithful that an embryo is a human being and scientists have to know that human beings are destroyed in the process. This is not trivial.

In the broader society, the primary questions are: what is my purpose, what is my proper end and how do I get there? There are a few specific branches of scientific study that try to identify what human beings are, why they do what they do and aside from death, nothing after that. Aspects of this are beyond the limits of science, other aspects of science reduces human life to us being mechanisms. While science can enlighten us in some ways - we are not biological mechanisms that, like animals, follow certain behavior patterns, reproduce, or not, and die. Since human beings are different than any animal, we need to know who made us and be in a relationship with Him, and do what He tells us to do so that we can be with Him - forever. The mechanistic worldview is seriously incomplete. Materialism, and science, alone are not sufficient.

Divine Revelation is factual information. It is true. But a limited worldview dominated by materialism will not help. At least not in the sense of us knowing what to do to reach our proper end.

From a billboard I saw: “Life is short. Eternity isn’t.”

Peace,
Ed

 

[aragonjohn1]

May I gently point out that it is very important to read Humani Generis # 35, #36, and #37.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html

With simply amazing intelligence, Pius XII, in 1950, nailed the chief opposition to Adam and Eve which would appear in a 1995 research paper by Francisco Ayala.
First sentence, #37.
“When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty.”

The New Catholic Encyclopedia , 2012-2013 Supplement has important information.
Citation: Bonnette, Dennis. “Monogenism and Polygenism.” New Catholic Encyclopedia Supplement 2012-2013: Ethics and Philosophy. Ed. Robert L. Fastiggi. Vol. 3. Detroit: Gale, 2013. 1013-1016. Gale Virtual Reference Library. Web. 20 June 2013.

In addition*, Homiletic & Pastoral Review, a long-time major Catholic publication, *
hprweb.com/about/ recently published on line, the article Time to Abandon the Genesis Story?

This comprehensive article addresses major issues such as the perennial Catholic doctrine, the literal Adam and Eve.
Link to article. hprweb.com/2014/07/time-to-abandon-the-genesis-story/

dude person wow ! starting with trust and ending up gratifying.

God bless and keep