How to Understand the Trinity?

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ThuriferAcolyte

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Have any of you taken the time to understand the Trinity? I’m particularly thinking about the “consubstantiality” issue. What does that mean? I know that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate Persons, as in, we know that Jesus wasn’t praying to Himself in the Bible, for example. But what does it mean to be “one in substance”? Is there a difference in saying that the Persons of the Trinity are one IN being and one Being?

When I wikipedia’d “consubstantiality”, someone wrote that Jesus is not only consubstantial with the Father (and I assume the Holy Spirit?) but with humanity, since He became man. Is this a correct understanding? Obviously wikipedia isn’t a valid source, but I tried to find this elsewhere, and couldn’t find much. (edit: actually I see this mentioned in the book The God Who is Triune by Coppedge)

Also, what is the Father? We know that He is a spirit, but what does that mean? Does He have form or is He formless? I guess this also relates to the Beatific Vision, where we will “see” God.

So yes, I do know that we don’t fully understand God, that much is a mystery, and that what we know can sometimes be complex. I’m just trying to understand what we do know about God. Any extra sources that you have read would be helpful as well. Thanks!
 
ThuriferAcolyte said:
I’m particularly thinking about the “consubstantiality” issue. What does that mean?
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The word means that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each existent “with” the others rather than them being blended into a new existence that would no longer be any one of them. Or they exist as what they each are, but at the same time, they are a single item.

As to how the Catholic is to understand the rest, I am a little curious myself. 🙂
 
Hi Guys,
When the first council met at Nicaea, they came up with a new Greek word “homoouisius” to describe the relationship between Jesus and The Father (later with the Holy Spirit). It means ‘of the same “being” or “essence”’, apparently perfectly understandable by Greek speakers but no-one else and caused a fuss.
St. Patrick explained the Trinity well to the Irish by using a shamrock: three segments but one leaf.
My brother helped me understand another way. “To you I’m big brother” He said, “To my wife I’m husband, to my children I’m Dad. I’m ME, but I have to wear different caps.”
When I was born again, I realised how little we prayed to the Holy Spirit and I found my prayer life divided and getting complex and puzzling. Certain prayers I would direct to the Father, others to Jesus and yet others to the Holy Spirit. I was getting myself confused, but one day, returning to my seat after Holy Communion, I suddenly KNEW that the Three were One. Jesus WAS the Father, who WAS the Holy Spirit who WAS… Suddenly I wasn’t puzzled anymore: it was as if it didn’t matter to whom you prayed - They are all the same! This is very personal and I wish I could explain it better…
God Bless and take your confusion away. Amen!
 
Consubstantial means one in substance. The Divine Substance is the Divine Nature, aka, the Divine Being. Each Person is consubstantial because each Person is God. Jesus is one in substance, or one in being, with the Father because He is the Son Incarnate and the Son is one in substance, or one in being, with the Father: God from God, Light from Light.

Meditate on the Creed. Or recite this prayer: “I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.” Either one will help.
 
IanGE said:
Hi Guys,
When the first council met at Nicaea, they came up with a new Greek word “homoouisius” to describe the relationship between Jesus and The Father (later with the Holy Spirit). It means ‘of the same “being” or “essence”’, apparently perfectly understandable by Greek speakers but no-one else and caused a fuss.
St. Patrick explained the Trinity well to the Irish by using a shamrock: three segments but one leaf.
My brother helped me understand another way. “To you I’m big brother” He said, “To my wife I’m husband, to my children I’m Dad. I’m ME, but I have to wear different caps.”
When I was born again, I realised how little we prayed to the Holy Spirit and I found my prayer life divided and getting complex and puzzling. Certain prayers I would direct to the Father, others to Jesus and yet others to the Holy Spirit. I was getting myself confused, but one day, returning to my seat after Holy Communion, I suddenly KNEW that the Three were One. Jesus WAS the Father, who WAS the Holy Spirit who WAS… Suddenly I wasn’t puzzled anymore: it was as if it didn’t matter to whom you prayed - They are all the same! This is very personal and I wish I could explain it better…
God Bless and take your confusion away. Amen!
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Thanks, and I do agree that we all should pray more to the Holy Spirit, as He is God. However it seems that you have an irregular understanding of the Trinity. I don’t think that the example of being brother, husband, and son is good, because that’s modalism. You are one person, with difference titles depending on the relationship. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons, not one Person as you are. It isn’t one Person wearing the cap of the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit depending on the situation. So unfortunately that isn’t a good example, no offense! 🙂

Also, it’s also irregular to say that Jesus is the Father who is the Holy Spirit, etc. Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, but they are not each other. The Catechism is clear on this:

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

Thanks again for sharing, but I think we both have some reading and learning to do! 😉
 
Eucharisted said:
Consubstantial means one in substance. The Divine Substance is the Divine Nature, aka, the Divine Being. Each Person is consubstantial because each Person is God. Jesus is one in substance, or one in being, with the Father because He is the Son Incarnate and the Son is one in substance, or one in being, with the Father: God from God, Light from Light.

Meditate on the Creed. Or recite this prayer: “I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.” Either one will help.
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thanks! Is there a difference between “one in being” and “one being”? I’ve seen both. I prefer “one in being/of one being” but I’m curious about one being. I think that leads to confusion.
 
I came to understand the Trinity using light as a metaphor. Light is essentially made of three individual colors; red, green, and blue. It’s also of the same substance (photons). So if light, a creation of God, can be made of three colors that are of all one substance - certainly God can have these attributes as well.
 
kalel76 said:
Light is essentially made of three individual colors; red, green, and blue. It’s also of the same substance (photons).
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🙂

good sheep A; “Our house is what protects us from the whether.”
good sheep B; “No, our house is what protects us from the wolves.”
good sheep C; “No, our house is what gives us a place to rest.”

ram sheep; “So you guys actually have 3 houses??”
 
I think of it as analogous to communication. When I speak to you I convey a thought. The thought is expressed in a word. The word is transmitted by vibrations in my breath. So we have three independent items - thought, word and breath - but they are all one idea that I am conveying. Note that Jesus is often referred to as the Word and the Spirit as Breath.
 
Excerpt from the Athanasian Creed:

…we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity.
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.
The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate.
The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible.
The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal
and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal.
As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not Three Lords but One Lord.
For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord,
so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another,
but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal.
So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity…
 
But don’t think that anyone can every fully understand the mystery of the Trinity.

The Story of St. Augustine and the Boy at the Beach
as recounted in the Golden Legend,
written in A.D. 1275 by Jacobus de Voragine, Archbishop of Genoa

Many other miracles hath God showed by his [St. Augustine’s] life, and also after his death, which were overlong to write in this book, for they would, I suppose, contain a book as much as all this and more, but among other corrections, I will set herein one miracle, which I have seen painted on an altar of St. Austin at the black friars at Antwerp, howbeit I find it not in the legend, mine exemplar, neither in English, French, ne in Latin.

It was so that this glorious doctor made and compiled many volumes, as afore is said, among whom he made a book of the Trinity, in which he studied and mused sore in his mind, so far forth that on a time as he went by the sea-side in Africa, studying on the Trinity, he found by the sea-side a little child which had made a little pit in the sand, and in his hand a little spoon. And with the spoon he took out water of the large sea and poured it into the pit.

And when St. Augustin beheld him he marvelled, and demanded him what he did. And he answered and said: “I will lade out and bring all this water of the sea into this pit.”

“What?” said he, “it is impossible, how may it be done, sith the sea is so great and large, and thy pit and spoon so little?”

“Yes, forsooth,” said he, “I shall lightlier and sooner draw all the water of the sea and bring it into this pit than thou shalt bring the mystery of the Trinity and His Divinity into thy little understanding as to the regard thereof; for the Mystery of the Trinity is greater and larger to the comparison of thy wit and brain than is this great sea unto this little pit.”

And therewith the child vanished away. Then here may every man take ensample that no man, and especially simple lettered men, ne unlearned, presume to intermit ne to muse on high things of the Godhead, farther than we be informed by our faith, for our only faith shall suffice us.
 
Thank you all for responding. 🙂 I think I need to emphasize that I do understand the basics of the Trinity, and I’m glad that many have brought them up to reiterate it. What I’m looking for is how to understand “consubstantiality”, mainly. What is the difference, if any, in saying “one in Being” and “one Being”? Is there a difference in definition of the word “being”, apart from “human being”, for example? As well as, do we know anything about the Father, as in, yes He is spirit, but does He have form, or is He formless?

Basically, I’m looking for a “heavier” dissertation on the Trinity, mostly related to consubstantiality, and how each Person of the Trinity is. Again, I realize that we cannot fully understand the Trinity, however I’m interested in what we do know about God.

Also, are there any modern Catholic books on the nature of God? It seems that most that I’ve found are by Protestants, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Thanks again for the help!
 
ThuriferAcolyte said:
Thank you all for responding. 🙂 I think I need to emphasize that I do understand the basics of the Trinity, and I’m glad that many have brought them up to reiterate it. What I’m looking for is how to understand “consubstantiality”, mainly. What is the difference, if any, in saying “one in Being” and “one Being”? Is there a difference in definition of the word “being”, apart from “human being”, for example? As well as, do we know anything about the Father, as in, yes He is spirit, but does He have form, or is He formless?

Basically, I’m looking for a “heavier” dissertation on the Trinity, mostly related to consubstantiality, and how each Person of the Trinity is. Again, I realize that we cannot fully understand the Trinity, however I’m interested in what we do know about God.

Also, are there any modern Catholic books on the nature of God? It seems that most that I’ve found are by Protestants, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Thanks again for the help!
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How do you define person, spirit, and form?

I think you’re over-reaching in your expected goals on an internet forum - unfortunately not a place for doctoral research. 😃 I can though, give you some references that will go into these details if you want.
 
ThuriferAcolyte said:
What I’m looking for is how to understand “consubstantiality”, mainly. What is the difference, if any, in saying “one in Being” and “one Being”?
Click to expand...
I don’t know to what degree you understand any of this issue and more over, I don’t know what is allowed to be understood by the Church. This makes it a bit difficult to discuss in an open forum.

Basically the Trinity refers to the same thing that is being understood in 3 fundamental ways such that any of those ways would stand on its own without the need of further understanding.

The Church, probably to settle arguments, declared a name for each of the understandings to fall under since they were all really talking about the same thing, but in different mental perspectives.

One of the issues that has brought a great deal of the confusion is the word “spirit”. Technically that word means the same as “energy”. But very often in older texts, the word spirit is substituted with the concept and meaning of “super-natural”. These are not really the same thing, yet too many have convoluted their concepts.

If I were teaching a course on the Holy Trinity, I would not call the Father a spirit. The Father is actually super-natural, not spirit.

The Holy Spirit on the other hand, truly is spirit yet super-natural also.

The Son is actually both as well.
 
JMJ_coder said:
How do you define person, spirit, and form?

I think you’re over-reaching in your expected goals on an internet forum - unfortunately not a place for doctoral research. 😃 I can though, give you some references that will go into these details if you want.
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😃 Not really looking for doctoral level research on this forum really, just something besides “the usual” I guess (especially in regards to consubstantiality, which is mainly what I’m looking into), since I’ve been through that. But yes, I’d love some references!

Person=the individual identity, what distinguishes me from you, or the Father from the Son. The Son does not possess the Father’s personhood, and vice versa

spirit=the substance of God (but then, this substance is immaterial, right?)

form=shape

So yes, I’m looking for something/someone to correct my definitions, and just something that explains the Trinity more in depth than 3 Persons, One Substance, they aren’t each other, the substance is what makes God, God, etc. So when I’m trying to explain the Trinity to myself and others, I don’t feel like an idiot 😉

Thanks!
 
James_S_Saint said:
I don’t know to what degree you understand any of this issue and more over, I don’t know what is allowed to be understood by the Church. This makes it a bit difficult to discuss in an open forum.

Basically the Trinity refers to the same thing that is being understood in 3 fundamental ways such that any of those ways would stand on its own without the need of further understanding.

The Church, probably to settle arguments, declared a name for each of the understandings to fall under since they were all really talking about the same thing, but in different mental perspectives.

One of the issues that has brought a great deal of the confusion is the word “spirit”. Technically that word means the same as “energy”. But very often in older texts, the word spirit is substituted with the concept and meaning of “super-natural”. These are not really the same thing, yet too many have convoluted their concepts.

If I were teaching a course on the Holy Trinity, I would not call the Father a spirit. The Father is actually super-natural, not spirit.

The Holy Spirit on the other hand, truly is spirit yet super-natural also.

The Son is actually both as well.
Click to expand...
Thanks! What is the difference between what you describe and modalism?
 
ThuriferAcolyte said:
😃 Not really looking for doctoral level research on this forum really, just something besides “the usual” I guess (especially in regards to consubstantiality, which is mainly what I’m looking into), since I’ve been through that. But yes, I’d love some references!
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I would start with Saint Athanasius’ works, such as Against the Heathen and On the Incarnation. These are important works where the great Doctor argues for the orthodox homoousias (same substance) against the heretical homoiousias (like substance). A great summary of the Doctor’s thought, especially on the consubstantiality of the Trinity can by found in this book by Father Thomas G. Weinandy.
 
JMJ_coder said:
I would start with Saint Athanasius’ works, such as Against the Heathen and On the Incarnation. These are important works where the great Doctor argues for the orthodox homoousias (same substance) against the heretical homoiousias (like substance). A great summary of the Doctor’s thought, especially on the consubstantiality of the Trinity can by found in this book by Father Thomas G. Weinandy.
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thanks, all of that looks great. Do you know if any modern Catholics have done treatises on the Trinity? All I’m finding so far, at least book-wise on Amazon, is from Protestant writers.
 
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