How was Adam able to be "tempted"?

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I was talking with a Calvinist and I was rejecting his claims that it was God’s plan that Adam fall into sin and that free will is a myth.

Anyway, he asked an interesting question which I told him I would ask for help in answering. It was along the lines of…How was Adam able to be tempted in the first place if he didnt suffer from the effects of original sin?

I would also like it if someone could provide some info from Aquinas on this issue and better yet explain what he is saying if it is too complicated.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
I was talking with a Calvinist and I was rejecting his claims that it was God’s plan that Adam fall into sin and that free will is a myth.

Anyway, he asked an interesting question which I told him I would ask for help in answering. It was along the lines of…How was Adam able to be tempted in the first place if he didnt suffer from the effects of original sin?

I would also like it if someone could provide some info from Aquinas on this issue and better yet explain what he is saying if it is too complicated.
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Without even digging into Aquinas we can answer simply that it’s not Original Sin that makes us temptable, but that Original Sin merely increases our difficulty in avoiding succumbing to temptation. Even with Original Sin we can beat temptation to some degree, but we can’t beat it completely, as in we can avoid a particular temptation but not all temptations, without Grace.

To summarize Aquinas’ argument on this subject (I’ll provide articles from the Summa in a later post because it’s actually scattered throughout his works and not answered completely in any one place) humanity was created in Grace, but not in perfected Grace which he calls Glory (part of the Beatific Vision and perfect unity with God). Adam and Eve, like us, had the ability to cooperate with Grace or turn against it. In our case we have the added baggage of the effects of Original Sin, the disorder in our nature that makes us more easily give into temptation, but in their case there was no disorder within them that made them prone to temptation. Rather they heard Satan’s proposal and accepted it without any force other than his persuasion.

Think of it like the difference between offering heroin to someone who’s never tried them, and has grown up in a good home, and offering it to someone who’s already addicted and has had few good rolemodels in their life. That is the difference between Adam and Eve and us when it comes to temptation. It also explains why their sin was so utterly devastating: they have every means at their disposal empowering them to reject Satan, but they chose his offer anyway. Theirs was the gravest sin imaginable, since we at least have some “excuse”, though not one that gets us off the hook. They sinned with what Aquinas would call “certain malice”, i.e. complete knowledge of the facts and consequences, and with the direct intention of turning against God’s Will (this can be seen by the very dialogue Eve has with Satan in the Garden).

In short, Adam and Eve had more free will than we do today, and they used it for evil. It’s humbling to think that our race, given all the benefits of Grace and the Garden, managed to throw a monkey-wrench into the workings of the Universe, no? It’s even more humbling that God didn’t let that be the end of the story, but rather made it the beginning of our story of Redemption.

Peace and God bless!
 
Catholic_Dude said:
I was talking with a Calvinist and I was rejecting his claims that it was God’s plan that Adam fall into sin and that free will is a myth.

Anyway, he asked an interesting question which I told him I would ask for help in answering. It was along the lines of…How was Adam able to be tempted in the first place if he didnt suffer from the effects of original sin?

I would also like it if someone could provide some info from Aquinas on this issue and better yet explain what he is saying if it is too complicated.
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Calvinists believe, and rightly so, that God is SOVEREIGN in ALL things. Nothing can happen without the Father. Whether it be the fall of Sparrows, Angels or men, God is in complete control.

IMO- To think the incarnation of Christ was ‘plan B’ is pure folly.
 
Jesus was “temptable” and did not have Original Sin. It’s part of free will – but Calvinists, if you peel off the top layer of their belief – do NOT believe in free will.
 
mercygate said:
Jesus was “temptable” and did not have Original Sin. It’s part of free will – but Calvinists, if you peel off the top layer of their belief – do NOT believe in free will.
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No free will?

We believe in free will to be lost and wicked without God.

We believe man after the fall is totally DEPRAVED, and unable to come to faith on our own. Men cant promise, earn, or merit salvation, its rather a gift of God. Scripture, the breath of God, fully and wholly supports this position
 
Baraq said:
Calvinists believe, and rightly so, that God is SOVEREIGN in ALL things. Nothing can happen without the Father. Whether it be the fall of Sparrows, Angels or men, God is in complete control.

IMO- To think the incarnation of Christ was ‘plan B’ is pure folly.
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So, when a woman is raped, God did it?

When a baby is aborted, God did it?

God killed the 6 million Jews in WWII? The 50 million Russians under Stalin?

God is Love?!?

I’ll never get my hands around Calvin theology.
 
Baraq said:
No free will?

We believe in free will to be lost and wicked without God.

We believe man after the fall is totally DEPRAVED, and unable to come to faith on our own. Men cant promise, earn, or merit salvation, its rather a gift of God. Scripture, the breath of God, fully and wholly supports this position
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Totally depraved?
Doesn’t that contradict that God looked out on what He created and declared that it was good?

(so much for fully and wholly) 😉
Catholic Dude:
I was talking with a Calvinist and I was rejecting his claims that it was God’s plan that Adam fall into sin and that free will is a myth.

Anyway, he asked an interesting question which I told him I would ask for help in answering. It was along the lines of…How was Adam able to be tempted in the first place if he didnt suffer from the effects of original sin?
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Lucifer was tempted and he wasn’t subject to original sin.
 
Baraq,

I believe that God may have known Adam was going to sin, but He certainly didn’t cause Adam to sin.

Nobody claims that Jesus was plan B. But we do claim that, with Jesus’ help, we can strive to become perfect.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
I was talking with a Calvinist and I was rejecting his claims that it was God’s plan that Adam fall into sin and that free will is a myth.

Anyway, he asked an interesting question which I told him I would ask for help in answering. It was along the lines of…How was Adam able to be tempted in the first place if he didnt suffer from the effects of original sin?

I would also like it if someone could provide some info from Aquinas on this issue and better yet explain what he is saying if it is too complicated.
Click to expand...
I would look to St. Augustine on Original Sin. Adam had free will and could choose to disobey God, and did. Also Adam didn’t look at the tree and decide to commit a sin. He would not have had the desire to do so. Same with Eve she did not have a desire or inclination to sin. Both required the prompting of satan, Eve directly and Adam through Eve.
 
What about satan and his angels? They were tempted and succumbed, but they had no original sin.

-edit- I see ol’ horn-tail has already been brought up, but his case is still worth emphasizing.
 
VociMike said:
What about satan and his angels? They were tempted and succumbed, but they had no original sin.

-edit- I see ol’ horn-tail has already been brought up, but his case is still worth emphasizing.
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They sinned without previous “suggestion” from another being.

This is why their sin is perfect and they can never repent or be forgiven.

Whereas humans sin with direct suggestion from the devil and because of the consequences of original sin (Indirectly from the devil)

JD
 
NotWorthy said:
So, when a woman is raped, God did it?

When a baby is aborted, God did it?

God killed the 6 million Jews in WWII? The 50 million Russians under Stalin?

God is Love?!?

I’ll never get my hands around Calvin theology.
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Remember, the parable of the tares?

God is not the author of sin, but has allowed the tares to grow alongside his people until judgment.

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
 
Baraq said:
No free will?

We believe in free will to be lost and wicked without God.

We believe man after the fall is totally DEPRAVED, and unable to come to faith on our own. Men cant promise, earn, or merit salvation, its rather a gift of God. Scripture, the breath of God, fully and wholly supports this position
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I’m not sure I quite grasp the distinction. All Christians believe everything after the word “totally” in your assessment.

While it may not be authentic Calvinism, I have had learned defenders claim that there is no such thing as free will. I am pleased to be corrected if that is not true because withiout free will, we cannot love.

Somehow after the fall, despite the mortal wound of sin, God’s irrevocable word that “it is good” allows for our frail ability tio respond to grace. While the human will is distorted, depraved, and condemned to death, it is able to say “yes” when the breath of grace is sent. Otherwise we are just resuscitated corpses.

Anyway, this thread is about how Jesus is able to be tempted. Even if we had no theology of that, we have the Epistle to the Hebrews, which states that Jesus was “tempted in every way as we are but without sin.” Jesus is “temptable” but he is not “sin-able” because his human will is perfectly united to the will of the Father. To say that Jesus is untemptable would tend toward monothelitism.
 
mercygate said:
Anyway, this thread is about how Jesus is able to be tempted. Even if we had no theology of that, we have the Epistle to the Hebrews, which states that Jesus was “tempted in every way as we are but without sin.” Jesus is “temptable” but he is not “sin-able” because his human will is perfectly united to the will of the Father. To say that Jesus is untemptable would tend toward monothelitism.
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actually the thread was about the fall of this first Adam
 
VociMike said:
Then don’t claim that they (we) have free will. You can’t have it both ways. To try is a silly position.
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Only someone foolish would say the position is ‘silly.’ If you read scripture solely, you would understand that man can NOT come to saving faith on his own. He does not have the free will to chose God. He cant come to saving faith on his own.Yet, left to himself he can commit all kinds of sin by his will.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 
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