How was it even possible for Satan to fall/reject God?

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RealisticCatholic said:
So surely if Lucifer comprehended his nature and what would fulfill it, he wouldn’t have fallen…

What a terrible result. To get it wrong and then spend eternity paying for the error.
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It’s not as if he considered the matter, came down to an either/or crossroads, flipped a coin and suffered the results.

He considered his nature, considered the mystery of Divinity, and took the hand of cards he held rather than draw the hand that promised eternal happiness. It would be like you winning the lottery of all nations at once, being promised that something better was coming to you if you burned the tickets, and choosing the billions of dollars in the bank rather than take the leap of Faith for sonething more. That’s a hard choice, but it isn’t unfair.

Lucifer had all the knowledge in the world needed to make the right choice, so it wasn’t rotten luck that he held rather than fold.
RealisticCatholic said:
Well, I think you mean rational creatures.
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No, all creatures have God as their natural end. Rational creatures have the will to direct themselves toward or away from God, while irrational creatures move towards God like water flows downhill.

Irrational creatures follow God no matter what, but rational creatures can directly experience the Divine Nature Itself. The clincher is that rational creatures must accept and cling to God in order to be elevated, and irrational creatures do not experience the Divine Nature directly.

Peace and God bless!
 
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No one can be happy, in any consistently and exhaustively satisfying way, until he rests completely in God, until he knows God immediately.
 
He considered his nature, considered the mystery of Divinity, and took the hand of cards he held rather than draw the hand that promised eternal happiness. It would be like you winning the lottery of all nations at once, being promised that something better was coming to you if you burned the tickets, and choosing the billions of dollars in the bank rather than take the leap of Faith for sonething more. That’s a hard choice, but it isn’t unfair.
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And so such a choice somehow amounted to a good angel turned 180 bad bent on possessing people and forever attempting to drag them down to hell?

So it’s either choose God or become evil?
 
RealisticCatholic said:
And so such a choice somehow amounted to a good angel turned 180 bad bent on possessing people and forever attempting to drag them down to hell?

So it’s either choose God or become evil?
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Well, fundamentally turning against Goodness Itself is pretty much the definition of evil. He set himself against God from the beginning, and this entails a lot more than making a slightly erroneous choice.

The root of Satan’s evil was setting himself before God, but that tree has borne a lot of wicked fruit beyond that fundamental choice. We aren’t talking about a being who has done nothing but good except for one momentary lapse in judgement.

Peace and God bless!
 
RealisticCatholic said:
So it’s either choose God or become evil?
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In the end, there’s no middle road or grey area. You’re either for God or against Him.

Revelation 3:16

“But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.”
 
Sin cannot take place in the will—without some sort of ignorance in the intellect, for we will nothing but the good whether true or apparent.
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-Aquinas in chapter 92, “Salvation,” of Summa Contra Gentiles
 
RealisticCatholic said:
Hard to see how if all sin is based on ignorance.
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Ignorance doesn’t remove all culpability; I am ignorant of what it is like to murder, and I’m ignorant of what is on the other side of death, but I would still be culpable of murder. In this case the ignorance is simply not knowing what Divine Nature is really like, but Lucifer would know that the Divine Nature was his natural end. He wasn’t ignorant of what he should choose, just ignorant of all the Divine Nature contains.

In other words he knew that he should choose the Mystery, he just couldn’t know what the Mystery contained until he chose it.

Peace and God bless!
 
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For a human, I don’t see how anyone could responsibly choose an eternity – everlasting!!! – of torment and suffering, and I don’t see how anyone could do so out of ignorance. Something as drastic as hell should only be those who fully and knowingly choose this as their ultimate end. Not out of faulty decision making.
 
RealisticCatholic said:
For a human, I don’t see how anyone could responsibly choose an eternity – everlasting!!! – of torment and suffering, and I don’t see how anyone could do so out of ignorance. Something as drastic as hell should only be those who fully and knowingly choose this as their ultimate end. Not out of faulty decision making.
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No one is in Hell out of “faulty decision making”. Everyone in Hell is culpable for their choice; those that are invincibly ignorant can’t sin.
 
But Aquinas seems to be saying that every sin is due to ignorance.
 
I’m not denying that people can do evil.

What I’m having trouble accepting is that anyone could actual deserve hell, since I find it highly suspect that anyone is actually knowing what they are choosing when they choose hell. Or sometimes not even freely choosing hell.

Again, all sin is due to some kind of ignorance, per Aquinas.
 
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I would suggest that you speak with a Priest and read about Divine Mercy.
 
RealisticCatholic said:
For a human, I don’t see how anyone could responsibly choose an eternity – everlasting!!! – of torment and suffering
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That’s not what they are choosing. They are choosing themselves. Is it really so hard for you to believe that there are people in the world that are not interested in being servants of perfect love? Is it really so implausible to you that there really are evil people in the world?

There are selfish people in the world and they like being selfish. They do not want to be perfectly good. It’s not just a matter of ignorance, and heaven isn’t just about wanting not to suffer.

To be anything less than perfectly good is unworthy of God’s presence, we are unworthy of existence. Us being here is only metaphysically possible because of the mercy of God’s love, we partake in the body and blood of Christ because of the mercy of God’s love. But we are not worthy in and of ourselves or of our own making. That’s why it is said judge as you will be judged. We are in a very volatile existential situation. There is a war going on for our souls. It’s really happening!!!

Nobody seems to take that reality too seriously though. To make it to heaven one must love the idea of love and partake in it, one must love God with all their heart. But how many of us really do?
 
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IWantGod said:
There are selfish people in the world and they like being selfish . They do not want to be perfectly good. It’s not just a matter of ignorance, and heaven isn’t just about wanting not to suffer.

To be anything less than perfectly good is unworthy of God’s presence, we are unworthy of existenc
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On my reading of this debate within the church, it’s thoughts like the above that really get to the heart of the difference between East and West. You’ve basically articulated an Augustinian anthropology—that the human race is a massa damnata and unworthy of God or even of existence!

If this is the starting point, then no, it’s not so hard to view the world in blacks and whites (good people and evil people). But this is not the only way to begin the discussion. One can begin by acknowledging that humans bear the image and likeness of God, that we are so beloved of God that he sent His Son on our behalf to reconcile the world back to himself—specifically because we are treasured by Him. Paradise was lost, so paradise must be regained. But in either case, humans are made for paradise.

It’s an alternate viewpoint. The world today seems more open to this “Eastern” point of view. I don’t know how well it sits with the masses to tell them that they are unworthy. People today are generally good at understanding that they in fact do possess intrinsic value/dignity/worth. But I admit that if that starting point of human dignity is rejected, Hell can be seen as more plausible.
 
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Magnanimity said:
One can begin by acknowledging that humans bear the image and likeness of God, that we are so beloved of God that he sent His Son on our behalf to reconcile the world back to himself—specifically because we are treasured by Him.
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I was not personally aware that this was Augustinian teaching. This is simply my discernment on the matter.

Yes this is true. God is love, so it follows necessarily that God loves us and gives us what he loves. But it is also true that only the perfection of God merits existence. God necessarily exists, and it is not a coincidence that God is also perfectly good, not simply by choice but by his very nature. In a very real sense only love ought to exist. So it follows true that we do not merit existence in and of ourselves. We are not perfectly good, thus the very act of God’ sustaining us in existence despite that imperfection is nothing less than a merciful act which by definition is an act of love.

God does not owe us anything, but rather God loves us so much that his mercy out-pours onto us. We cannot merit eternal heaven and that is why heaven is a gift that can be either accepted or rejected.

Even one sin is one too many, but God’s mercy/love sustains us in existence despite of this and saves us. To acknowledge that we are unworthy is not to ignore the good and love that is bestowed upon us by God himself. It is not a call to hate ourselves. On the contrary it is an opportunity to acknowledge the eternal mercy of God, his love for us. It is simply to humbly acknowledge the truth, that we are not God and we are nothing without him.

Who can we judge or scorn knowing this to be true. God seeks the salvation of all of us and does not wish that any of us be lost. This is the perfection of God.
 
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