How Was Jesus Forsaken While He Was On The Cross?

[RastaPasta]

Hello:

When Jesus was on the cross he said: “My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me”?

What did he mean when he said that?

A friend of mine once told me that because Jesus took all of the sins of the world upon his shoulders, God (the Father) couldn’t look at him while he was in that state (sin can’t be in the presence of God), and so the Father turned away from Jesus (abandoned him so to speak) during that moment.

But Jesus was God and had power over sin, and so that explanation doesn’t really make any sense to me. How could Jesus abandon and/or turn away from himself?

Thank you in advance for your response to this post.

 

[Darran]

How could He? He can do anything! He suffered everything for us, even the ultimate pain of being forsaken by the Father.

 

[wheels10]

Hello:

When Jesus was on the cross he said: “My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me”?

What did he mean when he said that?

A friend of mine once told me that because Jesus took all of the sins of the world upon his shoulders, God (the Father) couldn’t look at him while he was in that state (sin can’t be in the presence of God), and so the Father turned away from Jesus (abandoned him so to speak) during that moment.

But Jesus was God and had power over sin, and so that explanation doesn’t really make any sense to me. How could Jesus abandon and/or turn away from himself?
Thank you in advance for your response to this post.

The mystery of The Holy Trinity, ie. God is three Persons in One:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm

 

[Mintaka]

First off, it is a great mystery, so you’re not wrong to wonder about it and at it.

Secondly, it’s a quote from the Psalm 21/22, which was probably by David. All the Psalms are understood as being songs for all human beings, and Jesus as the Son of David was particularly qualified to make them His own. From the days of the earliest Christians, all psalms have been understood as being Christ’s song for us.

To quote the beginning of a psalm is to quote the entire thing. Take a look at that psalm, and see what it’s saying.

Now, let’s go back to what Jesus actually did say. “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” is Aramaic. The psalm in Hebrew is literally, “Eli, Eli, lamah 'azabtani?” (Which shows you how close Aramaic and Hebrew can be.)

'Azabtani literally means something like “loosen your grip” or “relinquish”. But it also means “to commit oneself”. When a man “leaves” his father and mother to cleave to his wife, the word for “leave” is 'azab. Jesus on the Cross was joined to the Church; the Son was outside His father’s house, sticking close to His Bride.

So probably God is doing some wordplay here, which isn’t something the original psalmist could have realized but which we’re in a position to know.

But yes, there’s still a lot to ponder in the usual meaning. You will find a lot of good commentaries on this psalm. Here’s one by St. Augustine which you might find interesting.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

Mintaka’s post is spot on. Read the rest of the Psalm, not just one line. It begins in anguish and ends in triumph.

 

[nickybr38]

First off, it is a great mystery, so you’re not wrong to wonder about it and at it.

Secondly, it’s a quote from the Psalm 21/22, which was probably by David. All the Psalms are understood as being songs for all human beings, and Jesus as the Son of David was particularly qualified to make them His own. From the days of the earliest Christians, all psalms have been understood as being Christ’s song for us.

To quote the beginning of a psalm is to quote the entire thing. Take a look at that psalm, and see what it’s saying.

Now, let’s go back to what Jesus actually did say. “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” is Aramaic. The psalm in Hebrew is literally, “Eli, Eli, lamah 'azabtani?” (Which shows you how close Aramaic and Hebrew can be.)

'Azabtani literally means something like “loosen your grip” or “relinquish”. But it also means “to commit oneself”. When a man “leaves” his father and mother to cleave to his wife, the word for “leave” is 'azab. Jesus on the Cross was joined to the Church; the Son was outside His father’s house, sticking close to His Bride.

So probably God is doing some wordplay here, which isn’t something the original psalmist could have realized but which we’re in a position to know.

But yes, there’s still a lot to ponder in the usual meaning. You will find a lot of good commentaries on this psalm. Here’s one by St. Augustine which you might find interesting.

This x2.

 

[centurionguard]

Jesus was never forsaken by His Heavenly Father.
The Seventh Word:
“Father, I entrust my spirit into your hands!”
(Luke 23:46)

Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Philippians Chapter 2: verses 5-11

[5] For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

[6] Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. [8] He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. [9] For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: [10] That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

[7] Emptied himself: exinanivit, made himself as of no account.

[11] And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19880217en.html

 

[promethius]

Hello:

When Jesus was on the cross he said: “My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me”?

What did he mean when he said that?

A friend of mine once told me that because Jesus took all of the sins of the world upon his shoulders, God (the Father) couldn’t look at him while he was in that state (sin can’t be in the presence of God), and so the Father turned away from Jesus (abandoned him so to speak) during that moment.

But Jesus was God and had power over sin, and so that explanation doesn’t really make any sense to me. How could Jesus abandon and/or turn away from himself?

Thank you in advance for your response to this post.

Jesus was never “separated” from God the Father, nor was He ever burdened with actual sin. What He took on was the penalty of all sin, not the sins themselves.

This quote, taken with no background context, is (obviously) a source of great heresy.

So here is the context: in Jesus’ time, there was no such thing as a numbering system for chapters and verses of the Bible. If you wanted to reference a section of the Torah, you did so by stating the first line of the the section you wanted to reference. What Jesus is doing here is referencing Psalm 22 (alternately numbered as psalm 21 in some bibles) for the scribes and pharisees present. What is contained in this psalm?

1. A reference to being forsaken… a direct reference to those who stood at the foot of the cross and taunted for Christ to save Himself… not to say that He WAS forsaken, but to pay attention to what comes next in the psalm
2. A messianic prophecy which clearly was fulfilled on calvary
3. A message that the psalmist, and Christ by extension, were NEVER abandoned by God, but rather that by passing through the darkness of their trials they were fulfilling Gods plan and bringing about the abundent glory of God.

Imagine, then, being a scribe… having looked at psalm 22 for years and wondering what David, who was never captured and tortured in such a way, could possibly have meant… to be standing there taunting Jesus when He references that psalm… to realize that psalm 22 is clearly a prophecy, that it is unfolding before your eyes, and that the son of David, the Messiah, is dying on the cross right before you in accordance with the plan of God…

I think if I were that scribe, it would not have taken an earthquake and darkness to throw me to my knees in that terrible moment of realization… The shame of what I had done would probably have been enough to bring about repentence… Dayenu

 

[in_servitude]

Psalms 22:17-19

17Dogs surround me;a pack of evildoers closes in on me.They have pierced my hands and my feet 18** I can count all my bones**.They stare at me and gloat; 19** they divide my garments** among them;** for my clothing they cast lots**.

We have names for our prayers - they’re the start of the prayer. “Our Father”, “Hail Mary”, … The Psalms didn’t have numbers at the time of Jesus, the were reference the same way, by the start. The start of Psalm 22: “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?”

While it’s possible that the human part of Jesus was feeling some rejection from his people, he was not asking a question to God. He is God. As I understand it, to teach that Jesus was cut off from God is false teaching and a rejection of the Trinity.

 

[Ion]

This is what I think about this moment of crucifixion, please correct me if you think necessary.

Indeed, first of all Christ clearly shows to people the fulfillment of the prophecies.
But in itself, the first line of the psalm, has a meaning, as the whole psalm.

Christ was bearing the cross alone, with no comfort or nourishment from God The Father or God The Holy Spirit; (My God, My God) and in His suffering he was indeed forsaken.

He didn’t ask the question to get an answer from God, nor he was afraid of anything, but only to show to the people that, He, as a sinless person, has the right to ask God this question.

A sinfull person doesn’t have the right to ask God this question.

 

[patrick457]

First off, it is a great mystery, so you’re not wrong to wonder about it and at it.

Secondly, it’s a quote from the Psalm 21/22, which was probably by David. All the Psalms are understood as being songs for all human beings, and Jesus as the Son of David was particularly qualified to make them His own. From the days of the earliest Christians, all psalms have been understood as being Christ’s song for us.

Indeed. According to one theory, it would even seem that the early Christians could not help but recount the story of Jesus using the language of the Psalms, and the Old Testament in general, which they believed pointed to Him (in which case, we have the gospel accounts being ‘history scripturalized’).

 

[steve53]

Don’t overthink this.

If Jesus didn’t think that Angels were going to come down from heaven and rescue him, at least he thought his ordeal was going to be painless.

But it REALLY hurt bad.

 

[patrick457]

Don’t overthink this.

If Jesus didn’t think that Angels were going to come down from heaven and rescue him, at least he thought his ordeal was going to be painless.

But it REALLY hurt bad.

Oh, that.

For those who aren’t in the know: some people (like E.P. Sanders - normally a favorite scholar of mine; this is one of the areas where I don’t agree with him - or Albert Schweitzer) interpret Jesus’ cry here as follows. According to them, Jesus at the Last Supper apparently thought that God would intervene by making His kingdom come before He was arrested and executed (cf. Mark 14:25), but after hanging on the cross for a few hours with no sign of the kingdom anywhere in sight, He began crying out in disillusionment and despair about being forsaken. In other words, Jesus did not really intend to die, but was trying to make God bring about the advent of the kingdom by bringing Himself into peril. This opinion is bound up with the view of Jesus as an eschatological prophet (not surprisingly, Sanders and Schweitzer portray Jesus as being this): while the revolutionary tries to bring about the kingdom by brute force, the eschatological visionary waits for God to do it.

And yes, from an orthodox perspective, this is a very problematic interpretation. About on the same level as that opinion by John Dominic Crossan about the Passion narratives being made out of whole cloth by the disciples - who, because they all ran away, never knew anything beyond the fact that Jesus was crucified - out of Old Testament prophecies.

 

[patrick457]

First off, it is a great mystery, so you’re not wrong to wonder about it and at it.

Secondly, it’s a quote from the Psalm 21/22, which was probably by David. All the Psalms are understood as being songs for all human beings, and Jesus as the Son of David was particularly qualified to make them His own. From the days of the earliest Christians, all psalms have been understood as being Christ’s song for us.

To quote the beginning of a psalm is to quote the entire thing. Take a look at that psalm, and see what it’s saying.

Now, let’s go back to what Jesus actually did say. “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” is Aramaic. The psalm in Hebrew is literally, “Eli, Eli, lamah 'azabtani?” (Which shows you how close Aramaic and Hebrew can be.)

'Azabtani literally means something like “loosen your grip” or “relinquish”. But it also means “to commit oneself”. When a man “leaves” his father and mother to cleave to his wife, the word for “leave” is 'azab. Jesus on the Cross was joined to the Church; the Son was outside His father’s house, sticking close to His Bride.

So probably God is doing some wordplay here, which isn’t something the original psalmist could have realized but which we’re in a position to know.

But yes, there’s still a lot to ponder in the usual meaning. You will find a lot of good commentaries on this psalm. Here’s one by St. Augustine which you might find interesting.

This x3.

 

[figs]

First off, it is a great mystery, so you’re not wrong to wonder about it and at it.

Secondly, it’s a quote from the Psalm 21/22, which was probably by David. All the Psalms are understood as being songs for all human beings, and Jesus as the Son of David was particularly qualified to make them His own. From the days of the earliest Christians, all psalms have been understood as being Christ’s song for us…

let me make that 4x lol

Also Christ quoted peices of other Psalms while on the cross.
The last words, “Into the hands I commit my spirit” comes straight from** Psalm 31:5
**From what I understand that Psalm was an evening prayer, taught to the young and prayer throughout life. The only thing I can compare to is something like ‘Now I lay me down to sleep’.

And, again when Jesus says, “I thirst” it is believed to come from Psalm 63:1. Read the whole Psalm, short as it is and it becomes clear what Jesus was saying on the cross, especially since he rejected the vinegar soaked sponge after reciting those words. It seems it has nothing to do with Him asking for a drink, as the Romans thought.

 

[Evan]

It could also be his experience of the “Dark night of the Soul” (a al St John of the Cross)

It could be affective desolation.

Fr Bob describes it this way (scribd.com/doc/9758071/Five-Pillars-Part-Two)

• The Desert Experience – Since the time of the Old Testament prophets, the experience of “being led out into the desert” has been well noted.
• This common expression of “dryness” and“aridity” in prayer refers to a lack of elevated or gentle consolation
• Not linked to a “lack of conversion” or “signal to a deeper conversion”
• This God’s way of inducing trust in and surrender to Him without the inducement of affective consolation
• Why would God do this to us? Because He wants our surrender to arise out of our desire for His heart, for His way, for His love, and His person. Rather than a desire for consolation, rapture, and ecstasy.
• God in His Mercy and His profound respect for us and our freedom leads us out into the desert
• Our job is to follow Him out into the desert,trust Him, to surrender ourselves faithfully to his heart and to wait for the coming of consolations

It certainly sounds like Jesus on the cross was uniting himself with us when we experience such a time in our lives.

 

[patrick457]

It could also be his experience of the “Dark night of the Soul” (a al St John of the Cross)

It could be affective desolation.

Fr Bob describes it this way (scribd.com/doc/9758071/Five-Pillars-Part-Two)

• The Desert Experience 口 Since the time of the Old Testament prophets, the experience of “being led out into the desert” has been well noted.
• This common expression of “dryness” and“aridity” in prayer refers to a lack of elevated or gentle consolation
• Not linked to a “lack of conversion” or “signal to a deeper conversion”
• This God’s way of inducing trust in and surrender to Him without the inducement of affective consolation
• Why would God do this to us? Because He wants our surrender to arise out of our desire for His heart, for His way, for His love, and His person. Rather than a desire for consolation, rapture, and ecstasy.
• God in His Mercy and His profound respect for us and our freedom leads us out into the desert
• Our job is to follow Him out into the desert,trust Him, to surrender ourselves faithfully to his heart and to wait for the coming of consolations

It certainly sounds like Jesus on the cross was uniting himself with us when we experience such a time in our lives.

This also.

 

[PeterGStanley]

He said it for our sake - to show us indeed he suffered a death just like every man has and will.