Y
yelias
Guest
Looking for references on how was Mary concieved, was the same way she concieved our Lord Jesus, or was normal natural birth?
- Status
J
Joe_Kelley
Guest
Completely normal except she did not inherit Original Sin.
B
bear06
Guest
Spiritually without sin. Physically the usual way. Jesus is the only virgin birth.
T
Todd_Easton
Guest
The circumstances of Mary’s conception are related in the apocraphal gospel, Protoevangelium of James, a second-century writing.(www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm)
P
prodromos
Guest
Joe Kelley:
John.
This is one thing which seperates the Catholic church from the Orthodox church. If Mary’s nature was not exactly the same as every other human being, then Christ only healed Mary’s human nature and not our own.
John.
S
Scott_Waddell
Guest
I’m not sure what you mean. We believe Mary received the grace that we all receive, she just got it in advance.
Scott
B
BayCityRickL
Guest
I think she was conceived ( “i” before “e” except after “c”) the old fashioned, God-given way.
D
dumspirospero
Guest
Not sure exactly what you mean, but to put it simply…Mary was conceived without Original Sin and she was born through natural physical birth. Now, even though she was without original sin, she still retained her Free Will.
prodromos:
A
asquared
Guest
surely at your age you are not asking about a lesson on the birds and the bees, her parents, named in tradition as Anne and Joachim, conceived her in the natural way. At the moment of her conception in the womb of her mother when her soul was infused, through the grace of the salvific act of her Son, who remember exists in all eternity at this point, no stain of original sin, inherited by all other human beings (except of course her Son), darkened her soul.
P
prodromos
Guest
Scott Waddell:
“For we have not a high priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but tempted in all things in like manner, sin apart.” (Hebrews 4:15)
“What is not assumed, is not healed” (St Gregory Nazianzus)
“Although Christ took our filth upon himself, nevertheless he is not himself defiled by the pollution, but in his own self he cleanses the filth, for it says, the light shone in the darkness, but the darkness did not overpower it.” (St Gregory Nyssen)
What I mean is that if Mary did not have the same wounded human nature that all are born with then the flesh that Christ took from her in His incarnation was not our flesh in which case only Mary is saved. Orthodox believe that for us to be saved, Mary had to have our same wounded nature.
“For we have not a high priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but tempted in all things in like manner, sin apart.” (Hebrews 4:15)
“What is not assumed, is not healed” (St Gregory Nazianzus)
“Although Christ took our filth upon himself, nevertheless he is not himself defiled by the pollution, but in his own self he cleanses the filth, for it says, the light shone in the darkness, but the darkness did not overpower it.” (St Gregory Nyssen)
S
Sarah_Jane
Guest
“Mary too required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.”
J
JimG
Guest
So are you saying that the Orthodox do NOT believe in the immaculate conception? That is, the doctrine that Mary was conceived without original sin?
You seem to be saying that Mary needed to be born with original sin (a fallen nature) and that concomitantly Jesus would need to be born with orignal sin, in order to save us.
A human nature is still human, whether having original sin or not.
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
God doesn’t say anything about the birth of Mary, but He tells us in detail about the birth of our Lord.
So the birth of Mary was like the birth of all humans. Any other addition to this would be an addition to the Word of God.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
God doesn’t say anything about the birth of Mary, but He tells us in detail about the birth of our Lord.
So the birth of Mary was like the birth of all humans. Any other addition to this would be an addition to the Word of God.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
E
Erich
Guest
John 21:25 “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.”
Yet we know about these “things that Jesus did” from Sacred Tradition. The Word of God doesn’t have to just be written for it to still be His Word.
J
JimG
Guest
By your own logic, if the bible doesn’t tell us anything about it, then you can’t really say whether or not “the birth of Mary was like the birth of all humans,” since that conclusion itself is an addition to the word of God.
J
JPrejean
Guest
This is a case of miscommunication. What Catholics refer to as original sin is actual guilt passed to descendants of Adam. The Orthodox don’t believe this exists. Instead, they think of original sin in terms of the human nature being wounded as the result of Adam’s sin, which Catholics generally perceive as the consequences of original sin, not original sin itself. Both of us believe that Christ has to inherit the consequences of original sin (what the Orthodox simply call “original sin”) in order to save us. But the Orthodox don’t believe in individual guilt for original sin, so the Immaculate Conception of Mary is a spurious concept (there was no guilt of original sin to be removed).
As I understand it, the Orthodox also believe Mary was not entirely sinless, because if she had been sinless, she would not have needed to Christ to save her.
S
SherryLynn9
Guest
In the past, (I was raised Baptist) I had been under the assumption that it was the sexual aspect of conception that carried the original sin. I don’t have the reference in the Psalms, but David said" in sin did my mother conceive me.’’ When the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, #1. it wasn’t sexual, and #2. wouldn’t that have been when she was became holy. Jesus wasn’t conceived via sexual means, therefore He did not carry the original sin. Anyway it made sense to me at the time. When we get to the section on Mary in RCIA I will ask the question then. Is this one of those oral traditions?
I really enjoy these forums. So much to digest and learn.
Thanks everyone.
T
tuopaolo
Guest
The bible doesn’t say how Mary was conceived. I think she may have been conceived by the Holy Spirit like Jesus was. Just a guess.
J
JimG
Guest
Thanks for this reply, as I was simply unaware of this aspect of Orthodox belief. I’m not sure that Catholicism teaches that Christ has to inherit the consequences of original sin in order to save us. I thought that simply assuming a human nature was sufficient.
As for Mary being sinless, I do believe that the Church teaches that Mary was also saved from sin; she was just saved before she commited any (or received any guilt from original sin.) This is possible since God’s application of divine Grace is not temporally confined.
On a side note, I ran across a Catholic who operates another board who believes that not only was Mary conceived without original sin but that she was also virginally conceived. (He calls it speculative theology, but I am sure that it is not the teaching of the Church!)
J
JimG
Guest
SherryLynn9 said:
Yes, I’ve heard that since our nature is received from our parents, that original sin is inherited in that way, through generation. On the other hand, original sin resides primarily in the soul, which is created by God at the moment of conception, so I’m not sure. That would be a good question to bring up. I’ve never been quite comfortable with it, because it leads to the somewhat puritanical notion that there is something inherently evil about sex, and the Church has never taught that.
- Status