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FuzzyBunny116
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The Church defined its own infallibility. How could they do something like that? Isn’t saying that the Church is infallible, because it is infallible circular reasoning. How did it all work, exactly?
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CollegeKid
Guest
While my answer is extremely lacking and you should wait for other posters to add a lot more, what I can tell you is that I’ve wrestled with the same issue; I think most of us have. Your question is a good one. I remember, awhile back some of us on this forum were having another discussion about papal infallibility. I think the question at hand was, how do we know a Pope will never teach error regarding faith or morals, since is afterall the Pope who defines what is and is not “faith and morals.” IOW, is there some separate way apart from appealing to papal authority of verifying just what exactly “faith and morals” are and aren’t. One person basically responded: “How do we know? We have the Holy Spirit to guide the Pope.” The answer begs the question, but its the answer nonetheless, and here’s why: the 1st Vatican Council’s definition of Papal Infallibility in 1870 wasn’t put forward as some sort of apologetic technique for arguments so that we can point to it and say, “See, we can never go wrong.” It was a definition, an official statement, of what the Church has always believed, it therefore requires faith to assent to. It was basically a re-statement of a doctrine that had been taught (albeit developing in scope and magnitude throughout the centuries) since the Church’s conception, except this time it was an OFFICIAL statement of that doctrine. This is usually (maybe always) what statements of faith from popes and councils are-they are simply official declarations of what has always been taught, not inventions.
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Reformed_Rob
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One could say, as I am briefly going to say…
It is a logical necessity.
That is, the contrary is impossible.
It is not possible for there not to be an authoratative (read “infallible”) voice for Christ on this earth.
Well, perhaps it would be possible, but not if Christians are going to be able to know what to believe in regards to faith and morals. So, the contrary is impossible for logical and practical purposes.
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Exalt
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Perhaps reason and evidence?
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simbagizmo
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God’s Word is the authoratative voice on this earth. And believing in Jesus from your innermost being, and pursuing wisdom relentlessly, will reveal His truth.
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Malcolm_McLean
Guest
There are many biblically-based churches, many with very different interpretations of the Bible. Clearly thr Bible on its own is not sufficient. As for them believing in Jesus from their innermost being, and pursuing Wisdom relentlessly, that begs the question. However not all Protestants are self-conscious frauds.
Fortunately we know which is the original church. Though there is still a huge amount of debate about what the Bible means, at least there are some parameters.
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VociMike
Guest
The fact that the Church is infallible (in certain matters and conditions) is part of the revelation which she received from the apostles, who received it from Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit. So the answer to “how was the Church able to define infallibility” is that she was told she was infallible by God.
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jemfinch
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Because that’s clearly worked since 1517 in bringing unity to the Church of Christ.
Jeremy
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Reformed_Rob
Guest
I’m sorry, I must not be able to hear the voice due to all the Protestants talking over it’s gentle utterance
Sorry, don’t take that the wrong way! In fact, look, I put a smiley there. I say that to suggest that there is more to God’s Word than a book that was written and we read now.
Obviously, we are glad to have the Scriptures. Thank you God for leading Your Church to infallibly define the Canon of Scripture. And thank you God for sending your Son the “Word Incarnate” to dwell among us and verbally teach the Apostles. And thank you God for sending your Holy Spirit to guide the Church.
The Word of God is a Person. Not a collection of writings.
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simbagizmo
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I do not disagree with what you have said and nothing personal takenI’m sorry, I must not be able to hear the voice due to all the Protestants talking over it’s gentle utterance
Sorry, don’t take that the wrong way! In fact, look, I put a smiley there. I say that to suggest that there is more to God’s Word than a book that was written and we read now.
Obviously, we are glad to have the Scriptures. Thank you God for leading Your Church to infallibly define the Canon of Scripture. And thank you God for sending your Son the “Word Incarnate” to dwell among us and verbally teach the Apostles. And thank you God for sending your Holy Spirit to guide the Church.
The Word of God is a Person. Not a collection of writings.
. The Word of God is Jesus, John 1:1. But the Scriptures were given to us so that we could seek the Word of God and to believe in Him that is salvation. It was also given to us to study and understand His will for us, and to protect ourselves from false teachings of man.
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neophyte
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Jesus gave the authority to teach in His name to the Apostles (Matthew 10:20; Luke 10:1; Luke 10:16), with Peter having the preeminent position among them (Matthew 16:17-19), and promised that the Holy Spirit would protect them from ever teaching error (John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26; 16:13; 17:17-19; Luke 21:33). He said that they would remember everything Jesus taught them. (John 14:16-18, 26; Luke 21:33). He further promised that the fruit that the Apostles bore (i.e., the Bishops they appointed and the Church that He built on them(Ephesians 2:19-22)) would remain faithful (John 15:16). The Apostles in turn taught (again, without error) that they had the authority to pass that office on to their successors (Acts 1:20,26; Rom 13:1-2; Heb. 13:17; 1 Tim 1:3; 2 Tim 2:2; 2 Pet. 1:16–21, 3:2; 1 Cor 3:9-11; Jude 8, 10-11 (ref. to Num 16).
Based on the word of Christ, we can know that the Magesterium of the Church is protected by God from ever teaching false doctrine as being infallibly true and binding on all believers.
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Genesis315
Guest
Jesus told the Apostles the Church would never fail. Isaiah also said that. Its not circular reasoning, its more like a spiral that leads to God Incarnate. It’s the same way we prove the Bible as the word of God–it is because we can trace the tradition to Jesus Himself.
All things we believe are true because God said so. God’s authority is self-evident.
All things we believe are true because God said so. God’s authority is self-evident.
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raikou
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Yes indeed, but not to leave us groping for the proper interpretation of the Bible’s context. The Bible was given to us by the Catholic Church, including the list of books included in it to aid us in knowing the Word of God. We recognize the truth of the Scriptures, because it is given by the Church, which is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15) - the Church, whom Christ himself sent (“As the Father sent me, so I send you”) and given the Spirit of truth that will lead us to all truth (John 16:13) so it could teach us to observe all that Christ commanded (Mathew 28:20) and avoid the danger of self-interpretation (2 Peter 3:15).
Don’t you feel blessed that Christ, in his wisdom, assured us of a teaching office who will explicitly point out to us the truth? By doing this, he just proved that he is indeed the way, the truth, and the life - the light of the world, who also called the Church to be a city set on a mountain to be the light shining before men - a Church that teaches clear and explicit truths to the faithful to lead them to the sure path of salvation.
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simbagizmo
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I understand what you are saying, and somewhat we are in agreement. The differences that I tried to point out below, is where the credit and the faith in discernment is placed. Where you say Catholic Church, I would substitute God. Then we are really close.
Jesus states that he and the Holy Spirit will give discernment of truth to those who believe in Him as Scriptures say.
I believe Scriptures was given to us by God, authored by God, written by Christian me under the inspiration of God
I recognize the truth in the Scriptures because it was given by God to all so that all may come to know and believe in Jesus and become Christians and members of the church body of Christ. And within His church is the pillar and foundation of truth.
The Holy Spirit resides in all Christians, each individual Christian. And this is my point. The Holy Spirit in each Christian, in me, and will guide each Christian, including me, into all truth.
I do feel blessed that Christ called me, in me, and guiding me to do His will. I am also blessed with His church that surrounds me and supports me in understanding and growth, and giving me discernment of truth as I continue to seek His wisdom.
Amen to this
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Br.Rich_SFO
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The Holy Spirit guided that Church in an Ecumenical Council to make a public definition of something already known.
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Strider
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simbagizmo,
I respectfully pose this question:
IF the Holy Spirit will give discernment of the truth to those who believe, and
IF recognizing the truth in the Scriptures was given by God so that…[they] may become members of the church body of Christ, and
IF the Holy Spirit resides in all Christians and will guide each Christian to the truth, then
WHY are there so many Christian faith communities, each of which claims to have the Holy Spirit as guide to the Truth and each with different doctrines, many of which conflict and some of which are mutually exclusive?
IF Truth is objective, AND there is only one Truth, can we determine who has it?
Yes, we can, and I know how. Do You?
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simbagizmo
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First, I would start off that there is no IF, but it is assured that all who believe in Jesus will gain discernment of Truth.
Obviously with so many different beliefs, we cannot all be right. And Jesus foretold this when he said the path to eternal life is narrow and that many will say “Lord, Lord” and Jesus does not know them. This is why Jesus and the apostles told each of us to beware of false teachers, and to test all teachings and ourselves that it is truth. How do we determine who is right? You would have to return to the Scriptures. If anything the Scriptures teach us, is that man will constantly fall away from God. The church of God’s chosen people fell away so far, they could not even recognize the messiah the Scriptures foretold. They were so engrossed in their religion and traditions, they were blind to God’s Word. Jesus makes this very clear. The early church was made up of different people, Jews and Gentiles, not a single religious denomination. I believe that is still true today. I believe Christ’s Church is made up of a body of believers in Jesus Christ, whether it be Catholic or Protestant, and not of one religious denomination. I think Paul says it best
The fight of who is right because of a specific apostle they align with, Peter or Paul, or because Jesus came to America, is as old as the death of Jesus. I would just follow what Jesus says,
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raikou
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I think you misunderstood my reply somehow. I think (and correct me if I am mistaken) it appeared to you that I emphasized and glorified the Church too much that it has displaced Christ out of the spotlight. That is not true. In fact, Christ is the core of the Catholic faith. Christ is the pillar, summit, and root of our beliefs.
If you would notice, I said this in the end:
This is a common misconception of Protestants: that acknowledging the splendor, manifestations, and consequences of Christ’s work of redemption somehow decreases the glory of God.
For example, the visible Church who teaches explicit truths as it was handed down (preserved by the Spirit of Truth and assured to be without error) from the apostles (and ultimately, from Christ) is a necessary manifestation and a living proof that Christ is indeed the way, the truth, and the life - the light of the world.
When I say, “You should believe in the Catholic Church! The Church founded by Christ and the one whom he gave teaching authority.”, it does not mean that I am making a god out of the Catholic Church. On the contrary, it is because I raised my view of Christ to the point that I have recognized that being the light of the world, and this testifies for Christ’s glory all the more. This is no different from acknowledging the beauty of the sunset, and praising God for this.
Yes. And notice that before believing in Christ’s words, the Christian who will potentially achieve this gift of discernment from the Holy Spirit naturally needs to have a concrete contact with God’s words, in this case, a physical encounter with the Scriptures, ie, gaining knowledge of Christ’s teachings through the Christians who wrote some of them in the Bible, in some literary style through which they wanted to convey God’s message and inspiration and recorded them into writing.
Notice that Christian. That is the Church part I’m talking about. See, you also believe in Church authority in some way. You recognize that God works through his Church. That… that is the concrete contact I’m talking about. Can you see now that part of God’s way of making you discern the truth, is that it be expressed concretely, physically, and very much alive and clear in reality.
Sometimes, as in the case of Prophets, God allows a direct God-man contact (sometimes, through his angels). But in the case of reading Scriptures, you see this flow of revelation: God → Christ → apostle → disciple → Christian1 → Christian2 ->… → Christian3 who writes this book in the Bible → the Magisterium approving this book as part of the Bible → simbagizmo/raikou reading the Bible. And in this process, it is not that the apostle or this disciple exclusively carried out and stole the work of God’s evangelization. The Holy Spirit was at work all throughout, choosing and assisting these means. It is true that Church was a necessary part of that work by God’s will. And I confess to you that God is behind all that work, just to make it clear. See, no contradiction.
Realize also that the process was not God → paper and ink → Christian. When you read the Bible, you are recognizing the Church as part of the process in which you are to discern truth. And that Church is living for 2000 years since Pentecost until now to be the concrete manifestation of God being the light of the world.
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raikou
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Not just within, but a solid is. The paragaraphs above explain how. A pillar. A foundation. A rock. An explicit and living manifestation of the teaching office - Christ’s mouthpiece on earth.
True.
And you may very well know by now that I agree. But through a certain process, simbagizmo. A clear and concrete process, using the visible Church as the means, specifically, the Magisterium (all bishops in union with the Pope) whom he gave the teaching office. (not everyone can be prophets/teachers as mentioned in the Bible) Only they can authentically interpret God’s revelation and teachings. God’s Spirit will work on us in such a way that he encourages us to listen to those whom God has appointed to teach in order for us to discern the truth.Notice also that there are false prophets who claim to have the Spirit. That is what you get if you bypass the visible Church - contradictory teachings. One sect affirms the Trinity, another says Christ is only human. Surely, if the Spirit of Truth is at work and allowed by these members to work, there will only be one clear faith. Unlike in the Catholic Church, it can be clearly pointed out that we have one set of doctrines of faith and morals that we must believe in.
To conclude, let us hear Christ’s words in the Scripture:
“Whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever hears me hears not me, but the one who sent me.”
So I appeal to your faith in Christ, to hear me when I say you must listen to the Church, because I am not endorsing my own words, but only testifies to the words of God, the Most High.
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raikou
Guest
This is what the Scriptures say:
That is why I believe you have an inaccurate picture of the Church when you said…
… as though Christianity had no direction but disunity and a mere imperfect unity under the utterance of the words “I believe in Christ.”. You saw the disunity among the members, but you didn’t see St. Paul, living to teach and urge them to unite in Christ. He didn’t say “Well, as a matter of fact, we don’t have any denomination here, so please do as you wish.” But instead, he asked indignantly:
See the passion of our Lord when he prayed to the Father for unity! He prayed for us with fervent love. Knowing this, can you not believe that it is possible that Christ founded a visible Church and teaching office which will be a concrete standard to which the faithful can adhere to and in doing so be able to unite more perfectly in Christ?
2000 years later, we still have the successors of the apostles, reminding us Christians of the same call for complete unity. The Catholic Church, never to be overcome by the netherworld as Christ said, is still here to fulfill that call under the workings of the Holy Spirit.
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