How was the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ sacrificed?

[fisherman_carl]

What’s interesting is how Jesus identifies with our sufferings. Whatever you have done t to the least of these you do unto him he says. Does that sound like a God who is unaffected by our suffering? . People maintain that the divine nature can not be harmed. While this is true this does not mean that God does not suffer with us through his attachment to us. Take for instance, see how we can suffer just by witnessing others suffering. Even the soul can suffer. Take for instance even though we are body and soul our souls can suffer from the suffering of the body. When one member suffers all of the body is effected. And the soul, though immortal and immaterial, is attached to the body. St Thomas Aquinas argues that Christ’s soul also suffered on the Cross. He says :

“So, then, we say that if the soul be considered with respect to its essence, it is evident that Christ’s whole soul suffered. For the soul’s whole essence is allied with the body, so that it is entire in the whole body and in its every part. Consequently, when the body suffered and was disposed to separate from the soul, the entire soul suffered.”

• Summa

Do you think that the Father never suffered while Christ was on the Cross? Would you suffer if you watched your Son die on the Cross? Just what kind of suffering are we talking about? Not suffering that harms the divine nature. But, perhaps a divine kind, that identifies with the Son.

 

[inocente]

The Mirriam-Webster gives these meanings for divine:

*a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god
b : being a deity
c : directed to a deity *

All 3 meanings would seem to apply:

a : the sacrifice proceeds directly from God (“Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.” - Is 53)

b : Christ is a deity, God the Son

c : it’s directed at God the Father

:twocents:

 

[hu324b]

And nothing anyone has ever done has made them worthy to enter heaven - the sacrifice that Christ made is the only thing that makes us worthy which he did out of love for all of us that we may join with him to enter heaven- so if you think that you are saved by what you do you are wrong - faith in Christ with him and through him and by his forgiveness we enter heaven and for no other reason. Its all about Jesus and nothing about us.

Its important that you find the love of Christ in your heart for all people or your faith is dead.

 

[fisherman_carl]

What’s interesting is how Jesus identifies with our sufferings. Whatever you have done t to the least of these you do unto him he says. Does that sound like a God who is unaffected by our suffering? . People maintain that the divine nature can not be harmed. While this is true this does not mean that God does not suffer with us through his attachment to us. Take for instance, see how we can suffer just by witnessing others suffering. Even the soul can suffer. Take for instance even though we are body and soul our souls can suffer from the suffering of the body. When one member suffers all of the body is effected. And the soul, though immortal and immaterial, is attached to the body. St Thomas Aquinas argues that Christ’s soul also suffered on the Cross. He says :

“So, then, we say that if the soul be considered with respect to its essence, it is evident that Christ’s whole soul suffered. For the soul’s whole essence is allied with the body, so that it is entire in the whole body and in its every part. Consequently, when the body suffered and was disposed to separate from the soul, the entire soul suffered.”

• Summa

Do you think that the Father never suffered while Christ was on the Cross? Would you suffer if you watched your Son die on the Cross? Just what kind of suffering are we talking about? Not suffering that harms the divine nature. But, perhaps a divine kind, that identifies with the Son.

This is a difficult one. The classical view is that God is immutable, has no emotional changes and therefore can not suffer. However, how do we reconcile that with the God of the Bible who is often seen as displaying emotion? The classic view is to say they are anamorphising God. Yet, it is hard for us to imagine that God would have felt nothing when his Son was sacrificed. Many modern theologians have adopted a view that God is not completely immutable. Dr. William Lane Craig for instance thinks that while God is immutable in many ways we shouldn’t think that he couldn’t have emotions. He would argue that would be taking immutability too far.

But, one thing we know for sure is that he has a sense of humor. For after establishing the Sabbath on Saturday he starts the Lord’s day on Sunday, confusing 7th day adventists everywhere.

 

[fisherman_carl]

“The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: A broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.“

Psalm 51:17

 

[JerryZ]

Well, but, God did not die nor the Word when Jesus died. Jesus body died as the the soul left the body, so in His human nature He died but His divinity did not die. If so, how did this happen?

I believe you are trying to divide Jesus, When HE became man, as we recite in the Credo, HE effectively joined HIS divinity forever to HIS human body.

When I die either of natural death or murdered my human flesh dies yet my soul does not die. But I can offer my life for example to save another human being.

Jesus laid down HIS life here on Earth for the remission of our sins, you cannot separate Jesus from HIS human soul (Yes HE has one) and his Divine component, which we do not know what it is exactly for if we knew we would understand GOD completely.

We do know that Jesus’s divinity is the 2nd person of the Trinity, the logos.
We cannot equate the 2nd person of GOD with the human soul humans have. (A soul is created by GOD).
All humans have a soul. Jesus IS fully human and fully GOD, Hence Jesus has a human soul.

He allowed Himself to be killed in what COULD be killed, HIS human flesh.
HIS human soul as well as HIS divine nature again are immortal. Cannot be killed.

As HE is the perfect sacrifice, the Lamb, we cannot separate HIM into pieces, HE offers the totality to GOD the Father. Body, Blood. Soul AND Divinity. Exactly what IS present in the HOST when we partake of the Eucharist at mass.

Jesus soul does not have the power to stop the Romans from killing HIM.
HIS divine nature does BUT HE did not use HIS power, did HE.
Remember, the bad thief telling HIM to use HIS power to save Himself and the thief?
Hope that this helps you.

…

 

[hasantas]

Well, that’s the thing - it’s not the ‘person of Christ’, when we are offering the body, blood, soul and divinity. How can divinity be offered up? A priest once told me that when we start splitting Christ we are no longer speaking of Christ. I believe this applies here.

If we offer the person of Christ which would include His divinity, it may pass, but when we start splitting what is being offered and specifically state ‘divinity’ then it needs to be addressed.

Maybe I am being picky, maybe not.

İsn’t divinity of Jesus equal as God’s divinity? Christians say God is one or three with same nature! If the the divinity or essence or nature are same so we atone same divinity to same divinity!?

A God has one actual divine nature, isn’t he? If a god has a human nature so could that god stay as divine god anymore?

Did human kill a divine being so the divine being should be sacrificed?

Could a divine nature settle in time and matter to be sacrificed? If that is so then someone can kill God. But I do not worship a mortal god!

Is the essence of God as same as a human soul to settle in body?

So there could be many unanswered questions in that issue if some one start to say God had incarnated. And all these could not be answered in that ways: If God wish he can do or that is mystery.

And no one could sacrifice the divinity because a sacrificed divinity could not remain as divine. God needs nothing. If God wish forgive human’s sins then God could do that without a reason. But God ask and want from human the repentance for sins and that is enough for forgiving.

 

[Vico]

İsn’t divinity of Jesus equal as God’s divinity? Christians say God is one or three with same nature! If the the divinity or essence or nature are same so we atone same divinity to same divinity!?

A God has one actual divine nature, isn’t he? If a god has a human nature so could that god stay as divine god anymore?

Did human kill a divine being so the divine being should be sacrificed?

Could a divine nature settle in time and matter to be sacrificed? If that is so then someone can kill God. But I do not worship a mortal god!

Is the essence of God as same as a human soul to settle in body?

So there could be many unanswered questions in that issue if some one start to say God had incarnated. And all these could not be answered in that ways: If God wish he can do or that is mystery.

And no one could sacrifice the divinity because a sacrificed divinity could not remain as divine. God needs nothing. If God wish forgive human’s sins then God could do that without a reason. But God ask and want from human the repentance for sins and that is enough for forgiving.

The divine and human natures and the human soul cannot be destroyed, but the human body can be destroyed. Truly, the Person of Christ sacrificed his human body.

Hebrews 10:10
By this “will,” we have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[hasantas]

The divine and human natures and the human soul cannot be destroyed, but the human body can be destroyed. Truly, the Person of Christ sacrificed his human body.

Hebrews 10:10
By this “will,” we have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Human nature and human soul can be destroyed by God because these are not divine and not infinite. God can do everything through time and matter. Human soul is one kind of God’s law which God gave it a specific body which we cannot grasp and see. The gravity is one kind of God’s law but it has not a body.

God can revoke and dissolve His laws but God do not dissolve His divinity which is not true to be presumed for God.

 

[JerryZ]

Human nature and** human soul** can be destroyed by God because these are not divine and not infinite. God can do everything through time and matter. Human soul is one kind of God’s law which God gave it a specific body which we cannot grasp and see. The gravity is one kind of God’s law but it has not a body.

God can revoke and dissolve His laws but God do not dissolve His divinity which is not true to be presumed for God.

GOD does not destroy anything, GOD is the antithesis of destruction. HE is a Creator GOD.

HE did not destroy the Angels that rebelled against HIM, HE did not destroy Adam and Eve when they disobeyed HIM.
HE is omniscient, omnipotent and omnigood.
Indeed the human soul is created by GOD when a human body is conceived, but GOD does not destroy that soul no matter how much evil that soul is responsible off.
GOD loves even them that became evil. Otherwise Jesus words would have no meaning: “Love your enemy I tell you”
Jesus commands us to love our enemies and to pray for them.

…

 

[fred_conty]

When we pray the chaplet of Divine Mercy we pray:

‘Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity
of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement
for our sins and those of the whole world.’

I recall in some reading, perhaps the Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska, or some other reading, that this phrase is in some old liturgy. Not exactly like that but, the idea offering the ‘divinity’ of Jesus is not unique nor new with the apparitions of Jesus to Saint Faustina.

If divinity cannot suffer, how can it be offered up as a sacrifice in atonement for our sins?

Thanks in advance for your response.

Jesus as Man/God is one person.
Died means soul separated from body of one person.
If Jesus died then his soul separated from his body,but his soul continues to exist.
If Jesus died then one divine person died in this world,but his divinity continues to exist.

Truely, God/Man died on the cross, and that is how.

We offer his body, blood, soul, divinity.

 

[Vico]

Human nature and human soul can be destroyed by God because these are not divine and not infinite. God can do everything through time and matter. Human soul is one kind of God’s law which God gave it a specific body which we cannot grasp and see. The gravity is one kind of God’s law but it has not a body.

God can revoke and dissolve His laws but God do not dissolve His divinity which is not true to be presumed for God.

Alright, but what I should has said, is that the human nature and soul are immortal, and there is eternal recompense.

Catechism:**366 **The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.
1051 Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead.

 

[hasantas]

Alright, but what I should has said, is that the human nature and soul are immortal, and there is eternal recompense.

Catechism:**366 **The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.
1051 Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead.

Yes human soul is immortal but by power and wish of God. God do not destroy anything which He created but it get transition and evolution. Anyway if God wish He can destroy everything. But God do not destroy Himself which is undetermined for us to suppose. So a divine nature/essence cannot be sacrificed.

 

[Abba]

Jesus as Man/God is one person.
Died means soul separated from body of one person.
If Jesus died then his soul separated from his body,but his soul continues to exist.
If Jesus died then one divine person died in this world,but his divinity continues to exist.

Truely, God/Man died on the cross, and that is how.

We offer his body, blood, soul, divinity.

This is interesting. I never thought of it in this way. So, although God the Son did not die, in a sense He did, when His divinity separated from the soul and body.

And, although God cannot ‘suffer’ He can be pleased(This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased) or displeased (Israelite). I guess it could be a type of divine sacrifice to have to endure being united with a human body and soul that is being mistreated to the point of death by ignoramuses (Father, forgive them for they know not what they do).

I still need to do some thinking on this one, but, thank you all for your contributions.

 

[Usagi]

Well, that’s the thing - it’s not the ‘person of Christ’, when we are offering the body, blood, soul and divinity. How can divinity be offered up? A priest once told me that when we start splitting Christ we are no longer speaking of Christ. I believe this applies here.

If we offer the person of Christ which would include His divinity, it may pass, but when we start splitting what is being offered and specifically state ‘divinity’ then it needs to be addressed.

Maybe I am being picky, maybe not.

But that listing is NOT “splitting” what is being offered. It is indicating that we are offering the whole Jesus. Linguistically, I suppose, we have split it up by choosing to list four different aspects of Jesus (the same ones that are present in the Eucharist), but together those four aspects mean “all of Him.” I don’t think the point is to raise the question of exactly how each of those aspects was involved in His sacrifice, but to affirm that we are leaving nothing out.

Jesus is said to have “emptied Himself” of His prerogatives as God when He chose to Incarnate, so that is a sense in which His Divinity could be said to have been sacrificed. Obviously it was never separated from Him nor destroyed, but the privileges associated with it were voluntarily “set aside” for the most part.

To tackle the question another way, because of the hypostatic union we can rightly say anything of God the Son that we can say of Jesus of Nazareth, even if the things we say do not innately apply to God. That is how we can call Mary the Mother of God, as one famous example – meaning not that she is the origin of the eternal God, but that the Son she carried, bore, and brought up was fully God. In the same way it is also possible to say that God the Son died on the Cross, even though God cannot die in the sense of ceasing to exist. As God-made-man, He experienced all of what it is for a human to die. So in that sense it can be said that Jesus’ Divinity participated in His total sacrifice of His life.

Finally, the verbiage of the prayer is not “sacrifice” but “offer.” We are given the privilege of participating in the eternal offering of Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity to the Father when we take part in the Mass. Remember that bit in the book of Malachi, quoted in one of the Eucharistic prayers, about the pure offering that the Gentiles would one day offer to God. Jesus is the one and only pure and perfect offering, and we are privileged to join in offering Him to the Father. I think the prayer is saying, “You have given me the privilege to offer the only worthy sacrifice, even though I myself had no part in it; I therefore offer Him to You in reparation for my sins and those of the whole world.”

So, um, take your pick, I guess

Usagi

 

[Abba]

God do not destroy anything which He created but it get transition and evolution.

Hello hasantas,

Unfortunately, I have never read the Koran, perhaps someday I may get the leisure time to do so - if I live long enough. But, I was just thinking that in your above statement evolution and transition seem to be articles of faith in Islam and if so, they may provide yet another point of meeting with Christianity.

As far as your statement that God does not destroy anything He creates, well, I am not very knowledgeable about science but, I have heard that matter cannot be destroyed. If this is so, than in that respect God does not destroy, but He certainly destroys the image, composition and structure - as in the deluge, Sodom and Gomorrah, His direct cause of the death of human beings etc… (like the ones that touched the Ark of the Covenant).

Insofar as transition and evolution, the angels worked out their sanctification and humans are working out their salvation. This is a form of spiritual ‘transition’ and ‘evolution’ - I would think.

 

[Abba]

But that listing is NOT “splitting” what is being offered. It is indicating that we are offering the whole Jesus. Linguistically, I suppose, we have split it up by choosing to list four different aspects of Jesus (the same ones that are present in the Eucharist), but together those four aspects mean “all of Him.” I don’t think the point is to raise the question of exactly how each of those aspects was involved in His sacrifice, but to affirm that we are leaving nothing out.

Ummm. But, the 'affirm(ation)" points to the fact that ‘divinity’ was offered up/sacrificed.

Jesus is said to have “emptied Himself” of His prerogatives as God when He chose to Incarnate, so that is a sense in which His Divinity could be said to have been sacrificed. Obviously it was never separated from Him nor destroyed, but the privileges associated with it were voluntarily “set aside” for the most part.

Yes.

Abba: :“And, although God cannot ‘suffer’ He can be pleased(This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased) or displeased (Israelite). I guess it could be a type of divine sacrifice to have to endure being united with a human body and soul that is being mistreated to the point of death by ignoramuses (Father, forgive them for they know not what they do)”.

To tackle the question another way, because of the hypostatic union we can rightly say anything of God the Son that we can say of Jesus of Nazareth, even if the things we say do not innately apply to God. That is how we can call Mary the Mother of God, as one famous example – meaning not that she is the origin of the eternal God, but that the Son she carried, bore, and brought up was fully God. In the same way it is also possible to say that God the Son died on the Cross, even though God cannot die in the sense of ceasing to exist. As God-made-man, He experienced all of what it is for a human to die. So in that sense it can be said that Jesus’ Divinity participated in His total sacrifice of His life.

I really like these comparisons. I need to contemplate on it.

Finally, the verbiage of the prayer is not “sacrifice” but “offer.” We are given the privilege of participating in the eternal offering of Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity to the Father when we take part in the Mass. Remember that bit in the book of Malachi, quoted in one of the Eucharistic prayers, about the pure offering that the Gentiles would one day offer to God. Jesus is the one and only pure and perfect offering, and we are privileged to join in offering Him to the Father. I think the prayer is saying, “You have given me the privilege to offer the only worthy sacrifice, even though I myself had no part in it; I therefore offer Him to You in reparation for my sins and those of the whole world.”

It is a great privilege. Nice contribution Usagi. I will need to think about this.