How we know about God

[Bill_Cherry]

Hence why it’s inconsistent. In genisis God is ordering genocides, plagues, the slaughter of women and children, and so many other crimes. And than suddenly he’s all loving? It doesn’t make much sense, if it’s the same God than he’s a very in consistent God, which is dangerous if he’s the real God. And other things, like it says incest is bad, yet how did Adam and Eve’s family grow? It says murder is bad, yet God orders Moses to slaughter a whole society of people and take their land. I could go on and on, there’s just too many holes.

**There is a big difference between the old testament and the new testament. The first thing that you should notice is that one is called “OLD” and the other one is called “NEW”. The OLD testament basically has all that "rumble thee forth and stompeth thee down"stuff, it is true. But it also contains the prophecies which foretell of the coming of a promised savior.

The NEW testament essentially supersedes the OLD. This does not negate the validity of the old testament. It simply over rides it. “WHY?”, you ask. Because the savior was born.:dancing: (YAY!)

The epistles at the back of the new testament go at great length to explain this. Perhaps you should read them. But to give you a VERY brief summary…

The old has passed away…we are no longer under the laws od sin and death, but under a new law of forgiveness and love…love thy neighbor as thyself for such is the fullness of the law and the commandments (or sumtheen seemlahr).

I would suggest reading it. Or maybe going to a bible study class. Or ask a more pertinent question that the faithful can help you with. Such as, "Why does the old testament say such and such and the new testament say so and so? Rather than just making some blatantly contemptible remark such as the one quoted above.

An education can be a wonderful thing. Start with Luke. and follow the footnotes.

**

 

[Hobble]

**There is a big difference between the old testament and the new testament. The first thing that you should notice is that one is called “OLD” and the other one is called “NEW”. The OLD testament basically has all that "rumble thee forth and stompeth thee down"stuff, it is true. But it also contains the prophecies which foretell of the coming of a promised savior.

The NEW testament essentially supersedes the OLD. This does not negate the validity of the old testament. It simply over rides it. “WHY?”, you ask. Because the savior was born.:dancing: (YAY!)

The epistles at the back of the new testament go at great length to explain this. Perhaps you should read them. But to give you a VERY brief summary…

The old has passed away…we are no longer under the laws od sin and death, but under a new law of forgiveness and love…love thy neighbor as thyself for such is the fullness of the law and the commandments (or sumtheen seemlahr).

I would suggest reading it. Or maybe going to a bible study class. Or ask a more pertinent question that the faithful can help you with. Such as, "Why does the old testament say such and such and the new testament say so and so? Rather than just making some blatantly contemptible remark such as the one quoted above.

An education can be a wonderful thing. Start with Luke. and follow the footnotes.

**

I’m completely aware of the difference between the old and new testaments. But in my opinion, old and new do nothing to wipe the slate clean for the messed up stuff that God does/orders in the old testament. Jesus was born, but that doesn’t make it okay that God ordered the death of women and children, wiped out civilizations with plague, etc… A tyrant doesn’t just become a good guy because he sacrifices a son. The God of the bible is just a man made God. Personally I believe in God, and the bible is a book written by people to control people.

 

[Bill_Cherry]

I’m completely aware of the difference between the old and new testaments. But in my opinion, old and new do nothing to wipe the slate clean for the messed up stuff that God does/orders in the old testament. Jesus was born, but that doesn’t make it okay that God ordered the death of women and children, wiped out civilizations with plague, etc… A tyrant doesn’t just become a good guy because he sacrifices a son. The God of the bible is just a man made God. Personally I believe in God, and the bible is a book written by people to control people.

**It sort of sounds like you want to put God on trial for crimes against humanity. I think Satan would like to do that to.

Are you aTrinitarian? I am. A Trinitarian is some one who believes that God the Father is also the Holy Spirit and Jesus. All at the same time. In a sense when he descended and was incarnated in bodily form, he went through the human experience and was crucified for our sins. So, in a way, (maybe,…I’m going out on a limb here) he was sentenced and put to death already. So, you want to put him in double jeopardy and I think that is against the law.**

 

[Hobble]

**It sort of sounds like you want to put God on trial for crimes against humanity. I think Satan would like to do that to.

Are you aTrinitarian? I am. A Trinitarian is some one who believes that God the Father is also the Holy Spirit and Jesus. All at the same time. In a sense when he descended and was incarnated in bodily form, he went through the human experience and was crucified for our sins. So, in a way, (maybe,…I’m going out on a limb here) he was sentenced and put to death already. So, you want to put him in double jeopardy and I think that is against the law.**

That’s how I interpreted it from the bible, that God was Jesus. A lot of people on here said that wasn’t right. But I don’t really Jesus was the son of God or God in real life, a lot of biblical scripture about him was edited by Roman politicians. There’s evidence now that Jesus actually survived crucifixion (a lot of people did survive them back then), and fled to Kashmir. In Kashmir they have stories and pictures of a man who looked, acted, and taught like Jesus did, they did not call him Jesus though, and it’s only recently that they have really heard of Jesus. There they also have his tomb, along with foot prints (and guess what, the foot prints have scars, that line up perfectly as if a nail was put through both feet). I’ve been trying to find the documentary where they traveled to Kashmir and found this stuff, but I’m having trouble finding it again online.

I’m not religious, but I am spiritually aware and I try to listen to my inner connection to God or whatever it is that guides me. And like I said, I don’t think Jesus was part of God, but I do admire Jesus and I enjoy his teachings.

 

[Bill_Cherry]

That’s how I interpreted it from the bible, that God was Jesus. A lot of people on here said that wasn’t right. But I don’t really Jesus was the son of God or God in real life, a lot of biblical scripture about him was edited by Roman politicians. There’s evidence now that Jesus actually survived crucifixion (a lot of people did survive them back then), and fled to Kashmir. In Kashmir they have stories and pictures of a man who looked, acted, and taught like Jesus did, they did not call him Jesus though, and it’s only recently that they have really heard of Jesus. There they also have his tomb, along with foot prints (and guess what, the foot prints have scars, that line up perfectly as if a nail was put through both feet). I’ve been trying to find the documentary where they traveled to Kashmir and found this stuff, but I’m having trouble finding it again online.

I’m not religious, but I am spiritually aware and I try to listen to my inner connection to God or whatever it is that guides me. And like I said, I don’t think Jesus was part of God, but I do admire Jesus and I enjoy his teachings.

**I would be interested in seeing this information, if you could post a link to it

Not to sound smug, but I think you’re on the right track It is good that you are searching. And again I don’t want to sound overly pious, but I think that when people like yourself act on the ,…uh,…(impulse?)…to question Gods existence it shows that you would like to believe it is true. Some would interpret this as the tug of the Holy Spirit! This seems to be a rare gift these days (per capita…). Being a Catholic of course I would hope that you find that all truth and beauty can be found in the Holy Catholic Church and enroll in the RCIA classes at your nearest Church I think they start next month. But, rest assured that there are some denominations which are in communion with us and salvation can be found there also. Otherwise She wouldn’t recognize the Baptism.
Although a lot of my brothers and sisters would shudder at that statement.**

 

[PJM]

=aball1035;5527914]Couldn’t somebody counter that by saying that we just make up a perfect being and call it God?

I suspect that the greatest evidence of the existence of God, is mans ability to LOVE.

This is so because LOVE is more than an emotion, [which by the way only man can have] it is a conscious decision. One can and should [according to Jesus] even “love those who hate a pursecut you”

***32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; * and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.” ***

***Inorder to LOVE man must employ all of his Spiritual GIFTS of mind, intellent, freewill and soul. More than any other reason LOVE is the explaination for why we were created. It is also the surest evidence og God, of God’s goodness and Mercy, and God’s Divine Will.

Love and prayers,***

 

[Hobble]

**I would be interested in seeing this information, if you could post a link to it

Not to sound smug, but I think you’re on the right track It is good that you are searching. And again I don’t want to sound overly pious, but I think that when people like yourself act on the ,…uh,…(impulse?)…to question Gods existence it shows that you would like to believe it is true. Some would interpret this as the tug of the Holy Spirit! This seems to be a rare gift these days (per capita…). Being a Catholic of course I would hope that you find that all truth and beauty can be found in the Holy Catholic Church and enroll in the RCIA classes at your nearest Church I think they start next month. But, rest assured that there are some denominations which are in communion with us and salvation can be found there also. Otherwise She wouldn’t recognize the Baptism.
Although a lot of my brothers and sisters would shudder at that statement.**

Here is the BBC documentary. It basically explores the idea that the gospels have been misinterpreted, and that they actually explain how Jesus never died. It also claims that Jesus may have left to gather the scattered tribes.

youtube.com/watch?v=9DXCZFRsyl8
(there’s 3 parts, the other 2 parts can be found in the “related videos” section)

I think I have been searching for my whole life, but my exploration of modern religions have always caused my heart feel like I was heading in the wrong direction. Eventually I started to realize that I could find answers inside myself, instead of in a book. I realized an energy inside me that sort of acted like a spiritual compass, so I could contemplate different theories, and as I got closer to truth the energy would grow stronger, it was like being in a meditative state. I haven’t done that for a while though, and lately I’ve sort of allowed myself to just be comfortable with unknown.

Here is another documentary that I just found, it links the story of Jesus with similarities in the stories of other religious icons. youtube.com/watch?v=hhef6wa2Mpc

 

[PJM]

=Hobble;5547620]Here is the BBC documentary. It basically explores the idea that the gospels have been misinterpreted, and that they actually explain how Jesus never died. It also claims that Jesus may have left to gather the scattered tribes.

youtube.com/watch?v=9DXCZFRsyl8
(there’s 3 parts, the other 2 parts can be found in the “related videos” section)

A fool and his money are soon seperated.

John 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth."

2 Cor. 2:14 “But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumph, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. 15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? 17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God’s word; but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.”

2 Thess. 1: 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Granddaddy used to say you’re alot more likely to find trouble when you go looking for it:thumbsup: I’m a dranddaddy now and attest that its thee truth

I think I have been searching for my whole life, but my exploration of modern religions have always caused my heart feel like I was heading in the wrong direction.

***That friend is because you are NOT seeking THEE TRUTH. Jesus Himself decares that on all matters of FAITH and or MORALS that you will find it in His Church where HE Himself placed it for save keeping.

Narrow your search friend, and IF you are really seeking truth you will find it***

Love and prayers,

 

[MindOverMatter]

I’m a dranddaddy now

Whats a dranddaddy?

 

[Hobble]

=Hobble;5547620]Here is the BBC documentary. It basically explores the idea that the gospels have been misinterpreted, and that they actually explain how Jesus never died. It also claims that Jesus may have left to gather the scattered tribes.

 

[Bill_Cherry]

*** I’m a dranddaddy now ***

Granddaddy’s of the world UNITE!

 

[warpspeedpetey]

because G-d is the maximal state of being, actus purus. being then by definition “perfect” (“complete” in modern thought) and lacking nothing necessarily implies maximal qualities. for example, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Well, we don’t know, some think they know, I choose to live with the unknown. The God of the bible is inconsistent. in some cases of the old testament **God orders or commits evil, **yet at other times God is all loving, there’s too many holes and contradictions.

such a ridiculous statement should be immediatley questioned, please tell me how you know that G-d has ordered or commited acts that are “evil”?

 

[Bill_Cherry]

such a ridiculous statement should be immediatley questioned, please tell me how you know that G-d has ordered or commited acts that are “evil”?

We are having a similar argument in the "Why do animals suffer thread…

Copy and paste
Originally Posted by redhen
Moral evil as a consequence of sin I can understand, but natural evil is still a mystery.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_evil

me
from your link…

“Moral evil results from a perpetrator, one who intentionally inflicts the evil. Natural evil has only victims, and is generally taken to be the result of natural processes. The “evil” thus identified is evil only from the perspective of those affected and who perceive it as an affliction.”

I think that “EVIL”, proper, is deliberate. Other things which we interpret as evil are in reality, inconveniences which we just do not like.
But, given your argument that everything was created by God, then, yes, he is ultimately responsible for it. But, it can also be argued that God uses ALL things to demonstrate his might and glory. The inference in your statement, theodicically (is that a word?) is that this some how makes God out to be evil. No offense,…but I find that logic to be intrinsically Satanic.not to imply that you are a satanist.

 

[Hobble]

such a ridiculous statement should be immediatley questioned, please tell me how you know that G-d has ordered or commited acts that are “evil”?

I Samuel 15:2-3
This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’

Numbers 31:17-18
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.

There’s so many others, but I don’t feel like looking up scripture anymore. Those are not all the word of God, but they are all results of his orders and anger. There are other instances where he commits terrible acts on his own, such as sodom and gomorra, and Noah and the flood.

In my opinion, Jesus’ eye for an eye philosophies were some of his most important, yet time and time again in genesis God promotes an eye for an eye approach to matters, this is another reason why the God of the bible is inconsistent. Eye for an eye mentality is the lowest way to handle any problem, if people can figure that out, why does it take a divine being thousands of years to figure it out?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I Samuel 15:2-3
This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’

Numbers 31:17-18
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.

There’s so many others, but I don’t feel like looking up scripture anymore. Those are not all the word of God, but they are all results of his orders and anger. There are other instances where he commits terrible acts on his own, such as sodom and gomorra, and Noah and the flood.

In my opinion, Jesus’ eye for an eye philosophies were some of his most important, yet time and time again in genesis God promotes an eye for an eye approach to matters, this is another reason why the God of the bible is inconsistent. Eye for an eye mentality is the lowest way to handle any problem, if people can figure that out, why does it take a divine being thousands of years to figure it out?

the Problem of Evil requires a judgement call by a person, someone who is only physically capable of possessing a mere infintesimal amount of all possible information about what is good or evil. G-d by dint of omniscience has all that information and can act accordingly. in fact the entire “Problem of Evil” that people have discussed for millenia does not actually exist. there is no such thing, because men can never be sure that there is not a perfectly good reason for any of G-ds actions. the “Problem of Evil” therefore simply doesnt exist outside of an irrational desire to make ones tiny bit of information, the measure by which such things are judged.

this is formally expressed as a criticism of info-gap decision theory where in the estimate of a value (a conclusion based on the limited information a person possesses) in an unbounded system (all possible information) can be far from the true value arrived at with all possible information considered (G-ds omniscience). simply put a person cant draw a valid conclusion about the morality of G-ds actions because he doesnt have all the information that G-d possesses.

to attempt to draw valid conclusions, such as “G-d is evil” or “G-d is immoral” is the same then as finding faces in the clouds so to speak. it is not then a rational position, but one based on emotion.

 

[Oreoracle]

Warpspeed,

You always claim that we don’t have access to all of the information that God does. So here’s my question: how do you know that God knows more than you? To say that someone knows more than you is to say that you know what you are ignorant of (you know what knowledge the other person possesses that you don’t possess). Such a claim is contradictory. Do you have some sort of proof that God knows more than you, or is this entirely faith-based?

 

[MindOverMatter]

Warpspeed,

You always claim that we don’t have access to all of the information that God does. So here’s my question: how do you know that God knows more than you?

Its a necessary inference based on Thomistic metaphysics, or just logic. In other words, it follows necessarily from the fact that God is the cause and the root of all things.

[edited]

 

[Oreoracle]

Its a necessary inference based on Thomistic metaphysics, or just logic. In other words, it follows necessarily from the fact that God is the cause and the root of all things.

Causing something to happen doesn’t mean one knows what they caused.

[edited]

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Warpspeed,

You always claim that we don’t have access to all of the information that God does. So here’s my question: how do you know that God knows more than you? To say that someone knows more than you is to say that you know what you are ignorant of (you know what knowledge the other person possesses that you don’t possess). Such a claim is contradictory.

yes, such a claim is contradictory, but thats not my claim. i dont know what information G-d possesses that i dont. i only know that we possess only an infintesimal fraction of the possible information that exists. the gap between what we know and what a logically omniscient being does is nearly infinite. therefore my conclusions about the morality of G-ds actions cant be valid as i dont have access to all that information. i.e, there may be a perfectly good reason for every event, even if we dont know said reason.

Do you have some sort of proof that God knows more than you, or is this entirely faith-based?

because G-d, as first cause, is the maximal state of being, actus purus. being then by definition “perfect” (“complete” in modern thought) and lacking nothing necessarily implies maximal qualities. for example, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence.

so my knowledge of G-ds omniscience isnt based on faith, its based on the logical nature of first cause as a necessary being.

that said, i dont even need to prove G-ds omniscience, the argument works because the problem is our lack of information. lets assume G-ds information wasnt infinite or omniscient but merely of a different sphere. in that case G-d could still have limited information, possibly even less then what we have, but if it is the information that provides the logical basis for His actions, we still have the same problem of not possessing the information necessary to draw logically valid conclusions about the morality of G-ds actions.

so either way if G-d is omniscient or not, the problem is that we lack the necessary information and the POE is irrational either way.