How well can you answer this question?

[Bennie_P]

Yes Pax it helps, where is the part is it after John 6:53-54 where He uses the stronger language? just after that? and where is the part about them walking out too, please?

I have a real hard time with the word symbol, because even if its symbolic its not “mere” to me in any way. I find symbols powerful, the cross is a symbol and real at the same time. A flag is a symbol and real. There is meaning of something real.

Problem is I do and have always seen communion as literal, why who knows? perhaps God told me, bold statement but apparentely I didnt pick it up at the protestant churches I attended. So i got it from somewhere.

Up to probably several months ago, I never thought there was a difference between catholics and protestants. Maybe wine/juice and wafers/bread stuff but thats it.

I always thought of it as Blood and Body even if someone called it a symbol. See I could use in a sentence; the Body and the Wine or the Blood and the Bread interchangeably.

This is why the subject is difficult for me.

It is difficult and it is hard to reason it into belief and understanding. There are many Catholics that don’t truly believe, yet they have faith in it.

For me understanding and realization that it really turns into the body and blood of Christ and it is real food came sort of out of the blue when I wasn’t even trying to make sense of it. It came after weeks of prayer and meditating on these two verse in John 6 and I was meditating on them for a whole different concern and matter in my life.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.

John 6:65 (6:66) And he said: Therefore did I say to you that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. (DRB)

Then one day it dawned on me, it really is the flesh and blood of Jesus - WOW - and nothing has been the same since - He has risen and He is here NOW -

 

[Montalban]

Montalban

I wonder if cruzin has a point?? looking at the Temple and the skins what the priest wore etc one can understand things later on. why wouldnt what Jesus was doing at the last supper be “from” the passover meal, I dont understand??

And if you look at what I posted hopefully you notice I do understand it to be flesh and blood and actually have no problem at all with it being that, and have always thought that, and didnt learn that from a catholic church.

But I want to understand it now I realise others dont see it that way, and I was not aware the protestants I went to church with had a different view. Ive always kept a good distance from it, because of the seriousness of it. hope that helps anyone understand why I ask.

And when i see what cruzin says there is logic in it, everything with God builds on previous things moving forward.

For Orthodox it’s important that it’s Christ we’re taking upon us as part of the Eucharist. People who deny Christ there are missing out on his gift. We become united with God.
Athanasius and Irenaus are to us leading proponents of this.
Irenaus
The Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ… did through His transcendent Love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."
Against Heresies 5 (Preface to that book)
Athanasius
“He, indeed, assumed humanity that we might become God”
The Incarnation 54
both quotes in Karkkainen, V (2004) “One With God: Salvation as Deification and Justification”, (Liturgical Press; Collegeville Minnesota), p26.

 

[manualman]

you know, his birth and first 30 years of life was so plain that almost nobody really paid him any special attention. What got him into stardom was his magical talent & top notch human wisdom & charisma, or so the story says. Same thing with the Eucharist, without all the hype and propaganda of it being ‘the Real Presence’, it wont really be recognized as anything beyond a plain waffer. Its all in the head. Its all mental manipulation. Its all showmanship.

And here we have exhibit A of my point. If you WANT to cling to your own will, trust in your own ability to be a decent being with adequate goodness based only on oneself, you CAN reject Jesus for who he really is and rationalize away everything he said and did. And quite a few do. You can’t argue them into the kingdom, you can only resolve to be changed by Grace and trust God to do the convincing. Good luck to you AgnosTheist. You’re obviously searching for something - hope you find Him.

 

[manualman]

As regards the Passover, you need to take a step back and remember that God is outside of Time and History. When He established Passover and instructed the Israelites to slaughter a pure lamb, eat its flesh and mark their homes with its blood he was foreshadowing the Eucharist. At that first passover, the Israelites did not partake of a symbol. They ate the very flesh of the lamb they had sacrificed to God in supplication and atonement.

How can anyone say that supports the modern theory that the eucharist is only a symbol?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Good luck to you AgnosTheist. You’re obviously searching for something - hope you find Him.

Gee thanks!

 

[Subrosa]

THAT’s news to me. I always thought our orthodox brothers shared our belief that the bread and wine actually becomes the body and blood of christ, not symbolically, not merely supernaturally, not alongSIDE the bread and wine…

Is there a further distinction I’m not aware of or is this just a case of EO not liking a word that wasn’t around when the big split happened?

They have issue with the word “transubstantiation.” They actually don’t have a word for what happens, they recognise that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood. That’s about it.

Sub

 

[AgnosTheist]

They actually don’t have a word for what happens, they recognise that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood. That’s about it.

I guess the Orthodox is like the middle ground between the extreme Roman Right and the extreme Protestant Left.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

It is difficult and it is hard to reason it into belief and understanding. There are many Catholics that don’t truly believe, yet they have faith in it.
Then one day it dawned on me, it really is the flesh and blood of Jesus - WOW - and nothing has been the same since - He has risen and He is here NOW -

 

[Kitty_Chan]

How can anyone say that supports the modern theory that the eucharist is only a symbol?

Like I said, symbols are powerful and real they are not *only a symbol. *
For example; give me a American Flag and let me burn it. I will insult to the core pretty much every American. That Flag IS America.

Perhaps because I DO see it as Flesh and Blood, I have never thought of it as only a symbol.

So when this only a symbol came up on these boards, knowing how strong symbols are to humans, I cannot understand the arguement everyone is having.

Then again, perhaps protestants dont treat symbols seriously thats the only answer.??

 

[Pax]

---

Yes Pax it helps, where is the part is it after John 6:53-54 where He uses the stronger language? just after that? and where is the part about them walking out too, please?
…
…

Here is the sequence in John 6 for phago and trogo…i.e. the transition to stronger language for the word eat.

1. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.[ate/phago]
2. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.[eat/phago]
3. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."[eats/phago]
4. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”[eat/phago]
5. So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;[eat/phago]
6. he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.[eats/trogo]
7. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
8. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.[eats/trogo]
9. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.[eats/trogo]
10. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." [eats/trogo]

As far as the term symbol or symbolic is concerned I would say that it is important to note that there is a significant difference between a symbol and the thing that it represents. Jesus did not speak figuratively and He did not indicate that the bread and wine would be symbols. He does compare the bread of the Eucharist in verse 49 with the manna in the desert. Please note that the manna was real food. The manna is a prefiguring of the Eucharist. The Eucharist is the greater miracle just as it is the greater miracle compared to the ascension which is mentioned in verse 62. Since the Eucharist is a greater miracle than both the manna and the ascension it cannot be a symbol. There is nothing miraculous in something that is only a symbol.

 

[fellowChristian]

I have questions:

Who has partaken of the passover with a Jewish family?

Is not the passover meal filled with symbolism? Each part to remind the participant of something?

Was this not what the desciples were partaking in when he said “take eat this is my body”.

The first Passover Meal was very real!

Exodus 12

20’You shall not eat anything leavened; in all your dwellings you shall eat unleavened bread.’"
Host from Latin means “Victim”

21Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go and take for yourselves lambs according to your families, and slay the Passover lamb.

Jesus is our Passover Lamb lead to slaughter.

22"You shall take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood which is in the basin, and **apply some of the blood **that is in the basin to the lintel and the two doorposts; and none of you shall go outside the door of his house until morning.

**John 19:29 **

29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips.
two posts made of wood = cross

Exodus 12
8’They shall **eat the flesh **that same night, roasted with fire, and they shall **eat it with unleavened bread **and bitter herbs.

Holy Communion!
Anything is possible for God!

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

The first Passover Meal was very real! …

And it had to be a real lamb. Not a symbolic one. If you didn’t like eating lamb - too bad. Little lamb cookies wouldn’t suffice.

 

[fellowChristian]

C. We observe Passover much the same way the Jews did on the first 15th of Nissan in Egypt. Pesach is observed by sacrificing a lamb, eating “bitter herbs”, and Matzah, and purging one’s house of any grain-based leavened item. The lamb is not done today due to the Temple’s absence, but everything else is: the mad, meticulous scrubbing and cleaning of every nook and cranny, the Seders on the first two nights (in Israel only on the first night), and the Shabbat-like services on the first and last days.

From this Link

askmoses.com/article.html?h=532&o=148

 

[Kitty_Chan]

well Pax, as Ive said I have no problem with it being literal. Im actually trying to figure out where the symbol comes in. When I look again at what you say (and others) I see what you all mean by symbol just not cutting it. And thinking of things symbol while it can be good but it also can be bad. As in one could forget what a symbol represents or misuse a symbol. (go with me here please)

Take a whale. One sees a whale in a picture, maybe in a show. But until you see a whale up close you have no complete idea of what a whale is. When I looked into the eye of one I actually felt my soul stir. I could not have known that from the picture or the symbol. I had to see the real thing.

Am I on a thought here?? (Im not saying Gods a whale just speaking about connections)

Speaking of connections, Im liking the connection you speak of about the manna. I know somethings true if it connects to the OT. Thats why it was twigging about the passover, it must figure in there too?? I know alot of people dont think so, but I know Gods logical. Things are connected and make sense we just have to wrestle with it and He will show us. Maybe even ask strangers to help

To go to another connection. Remember I keep saying Im not sure where I got the idea that it was actual flesh, because I have always thought so, just this other symbol stuff is confusing me. Well, when you posted earlier from John, something interested me. Thats why I asked if you could post the whole thing and how it worked.

I thank you for taking the time to respond, I greatly appreciate it. Because part of my confusion cleared when I read it.

THIS is where I “got” the idea of communion being actual flesh and blood, Jesus said it plainly right there in what you posted. I took Him at His Word. I knew it, I just couldnt figure* how or when*, it made no sense. And it has to be logical to me or I wont get it. But thank you again, now I know* why *I knew. It truly was making me nuts. When I read this, I recognized it and remembered !!

And the part about them leaving had been brought up before to me, but it wasnt connecting. As you laid it out, I see how the progression happens now.

It also seems that when He said phago He was speaking sort of in general sweeping terms like for the world and your fathers.

When He changes to the trogo He starts getting quite personal. Like I will raise him, I in him, eats Me, not like the fathers eat but he who eats will live forever. All very personal, gives me the shivers actually.

And Im thinking perhaps well, Jesus is the Word, maybe its eating the Word like John ate the scroll. Wonder if that goes anywhere?

Well I wont run ahead, its late, thanks, Im going to go mull this over

 

[fellowChristian]

I love connecting the dots!

The word Bethlehem is Hebrew it means House of Bread

Mary placed her Son in a manger. The word manger means to eat or to chew.

A manger is where you place food.

The Ark of The Covenant contained the word of God, the manna that came from heaven, and the rod of Aaron.

The New Ark of The Covenant (Mary) held in her womb The Word of God the became flesh, The True Bread of Life, our King Jesus!

And what did He say?

John 6

48"I am the bread of life.

49"Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.

50"This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

51"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also **which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." **

52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”

53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and** drink** His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

54"He who **eats My flesh **and **drinks My blood **has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

55"For My flesh** is true **food, and My blood **is true **drink.

56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood **abides in Me, and I in him. **

Anything is possible for God.
Faith is our response to God.
How do you respond?

 

[fellowChristian]

Funny how most of us believe in the power of God.

God speaks and something happens!

His word is so powerful!

God says let there be light. And there is light!

God breathes life into man. We believe Him literally!

God split the Red Sea in half. We believe!

God says a virgin will have His child. We believe Him!

His word is powerful!

He says His flesh is true food. We say yes but not really.

If I took a piece of bread and exposed it to radioactive chemicals and then left it laying out and you came acrossed it you wouldn’t even know.

It looks like the same bread but something has changed it.

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt1art3.htm

usccb.org/dpp/realpresence.htm

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

 

[Pax]

well Pax, as Ive said I have no problem with it being literal. Im actually trying to figure out where the symbol comes in. When I look again at what you say (and others) I see what you all mean by symbol just not cutting it. And thinking of things symbol while it can be good but it also can be bad. As in one could forget what a symbol represents or misuse a symbol. (go with me here please)
…
…
Speaking of connections, Im liking the connection you speak of about the manna. I know somethings true if it connects to the OT. Thats why it was twigging about the passover, it must figure in there too?? I know alot of people dont think so, but I know Gods logical. Things are connected and make sense we just have to wrestle with it and He will show us. Maybe even ask strangers to help

…
…
…
And Im thinking perhaps well, Jesus is the Word, maybe its eating the Word like John ate the scroll. Wonder if that goes anywhere?

Well I wont run ahead, its late, thanks, Im going to go mull this over

There is a symbolic aspect to the Eucharist. The visible sign of bread represents Jesus flesh. Moreover, the visible sign of bread immediately reminds us of the staff of life. Likewise, Jesus is our nourishment and food for the spiritual journey just as the manna was the staff of life and the food for the journey during the exodus.

The visible sign of wine represents the blood of Christ that we actually receive. Wine was often used in reference to blood and was a representation of blood in the OT.

Another symbol in the bread and wine in the Eucharist is found in their separation. When the blood is separated from the body we know that death occurs. The sacrifice of the mass is the unbloody re-presentation of Christ’s once and for all sacrifice on calvary. Jesus stands as a lamb that has been slain at the altar in heaven forever offering himself as the once and for all sacrifice for our redemption per the books of Hebrews and Revelation.

There is a definite connection between the Passover and the Eucharist, and others have touched on this. In studying the Passover one discovers that there are four cups in its liturgy. Jesus and the apostles did not drink the fourth cup before they went out into the night. Jesus asks the Father, if possible, to let the “cup” of his suffering pass from him. Jesus follows the Father’s will suffering on the cross and drinking of the sour wine given to him on the hyssop branch. The hyssop branch is what was used to spread the blood upon the lintels at the first Passover under Moses. Once he drinks the sour wine Jesus says, “It is finished.” What he is talking about is the New Covenant sacrifice in his blood that was instituted at the Last Supper Passover meal and completed on the cross.

There may be, as you have suggested, a connection with eating the word like John ate the scroll. The word that we receive and eat as a scroll is scripture. The scripture tells us God’s word in the language of men and we are to chew on it and reflect upon it to make it our own. Jesus is the word incarnate and per his instructions we are to likewise consume him and thus be conformed to him and be raised to eternal life.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

There is a symbolic aspect to the Eucharist. The visible sign of bread represents Jesus flesh. Moreover, the visible sign of bread immediately reminds us of the staff of life…

Thank you so much for explaining it. And acknowledging the symbolic aspects. They were really confusing me and everyones hate of the word symbol wasnt helping. This clears up a lot.

]There is a definite connection between the Passover and the Eucharist, and others have touched on this. In studying the Passover one discovers that there are four cups in its liturgy. Jesus and the apostles did not drink the fourth cup before they went out into the night. Jesus asks the Father, if possible, to let the “cup” of his suffering pass from him.

Right!, I always wondered about that, the cup passing, I knew it must have meant something but hadnt thought about what. So to be clear, did they then drink 3 cups and leave the 4th?? And I bet the significance of the 4th cup had to do with sacrifice maybe?? Do you know what the other 3 were??

Jesus follows the Father’s will suffering on the cross and drinking of the sour wine given to him on the hyssop branch. The hyssop branch is what was used to spread the blood upon the lintels at the first Passover under Moses. Once he drinks the sour wine Jesus says, “It is finished.” What he is talking about is the New Covenant sacrifice in his blood that was instituted at the Last Supper Passover meal and completed on the cross.

Incredible, the branch and how it all fits is totally amazing. Ive always said Gods clever, but I probably dont know the half of it. This is what Ive been after, connections, logic Im so happy. I love finding out how God pieces things together! Also, the It is Finished, I took it to mean his work was done, satan has lost, old was gone and now new, and your description above completes it even more.

There may be, as you have suggested, a connection with eating the word like John ate the scroll. The word that we receive and eat as a scroll is scripture. The scripture tells us God’s word in the language of men and we are to chew on it and reflect upon it to make it our own. Jesus is the word incarnate and per his instructions we are to likewise consume him and thus be conformed to him and be raised to eternal life.

Yes, I had a thought of that when I was reading last night. Take this scroll and eat. I wonder what eat is used there??

Im quite happy you are taking time to discuss this, it is absolutely wonderful stuff. I couldnt describe it but this is what I was after. Something to chew on Is that getting carried away?

ps If I dont catch you friday, its our Thanksgiving weekend here and Im taking off but will be back Mon late, just so you dont think Im ignoring you after all this.

pps thanks too fellow christian et el.

 

[Pax]

…

Right!, I always wondered about that, the cup passing, I knew it must have meant something but hadnt thought about what. So to be clear, did they then drink 3 cups and leave the 4th?? And I bet the significance of the 4th cup had to do with sacrifice maybe?? Do you know what the other 3 were??

…
…

There are four expressions in conjunction with the Jewish redemption from Egypt and these correspond to the four cups at Passover. The expressions are:

–I will release you
–I will save you
–I will liberate you
–I will take you unto me as a nation.

This can be seen in Exodus 6:6-7 which says:
“I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great acts of judgment, and I will take you for my people, and I will be your God…” (Exodus 6:6-7)

If you study the gospel accounts carefully and follow the progression of a passover ritual carefully you will come to the conclusion that Jesus and the apostles did not drink the fourth cup. Instead they went out into the night singing the Hallel psalm. Jesus completes the passover with his sacrifice on calvary. In conjunction with this element of sacrifice I would refer you to the following link for an interesting article:

chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach.htm/aid/1709/jewish/The-Four-Cups.html

You will see more connections…enjoy.

 

[Erich]

If you study the gospel accounts carefully and follow the progression of a passover ritual carefully you will come to the conclusion that Jesus and the apostles did not drink the fourth cup. Instead they went out into the night singing the Hallel psalm. Jesus completes the passover with his sacrifice on calvary.

Scott Hahn comes to the same conclusion in The Hunt for the Fourth Cup.