How would a protestant cope with being in a first century church?

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Keep in mind that we are talking about the principle of sola scriptura. That principle requires the protestant to get all his teachings from scripture. As a catholic, I am not required to. So it would not make any sense to bind me to a principle which I am not supporting. I don’t need to prove distinctive that protestants support. Perhaps you are still not clear on the catholic position, if not then I will be glad to explain further.

So what authority does sola scriptura come from if not from scripture?
I can’t speak for my brothers and sisters in other denominations, but from a Lutheran perspective, the church is a teaching authority. Any dogma or doctrine, needs to be consistent with scripture. Scripture is the yardstick, the norm, it is not the only teaching authority.
 
Are you suggesting Apostolic Succession is through the Priesthood?
No. there were Catholic bishops who converted (or were converted) when some countries took on Lutheranism as a national Church. They did the ordaining, as do their successors. The form, intent, etc. may be in question, but the lines are not, to my knowledge.

However, Lutherans do believe that presbyter ordination is valid under divine law.

Jon
 
Back to the original topic, got here late.

I converted from a Protestant Denonimation that considers itself neither Protestant or a denomination (not Mormon). They consider themseves to be the first century church in the 21st century.

But if the returned to the first century I think they would be in for a shock. All you have to do is read the Didache and the Fathers to know the first century church did not resemble thier denomination at all.

The first century church was liturgical, they hate liturgy. The first century church was no centered on sermons. Then first century church did no have a continous revival meeting, assuming that the people are not yet Christians.

I think many Protestants read thier own theology into the first century church and ignore the historic facts.
 
The evidence of the Succession is constant and everywhere. Even the atheists agree that Peter, an Apostle of Jesus Christ, was the first Pope of the Catholic Church, and they, too, can list them off in order - just as anyone can list off the Presidents of the United States in order, even if he is not an American citizen.
There were three popes in the early 1400’s, just how many did you need? Was one not enough? All three of them seemed to have competent claim to the seat.
By the fact that the Early Fathers were writing about it, documenting it, and reminding people to be obedient to the Bishop of Rome as well as to their own Bishops, becasue they were appointed by the Bishop of Rome.
The Popes of Alexandria were never appointed by the Bishop of Rome until 1219 when a Latin Patriarchy was established.
 
You’re reading McBrien? He is not considered “main stream,” I don’t think. (I hope not!) Neither is Hans Kung; he has also worked in Rome, but was excommunicated - working in Rome isn’t always a sign of orthodoxy.

By the way, totally off topic, but Galileo’s theory has also been proven false - the Universe does not go around the Sun, either - so it’s a good thing that the Church didn’t make it a Doctrine of the Faith to be required to believe that the Universe goes around the Sun, as Galileo wanted Her to do. Can you imagine the laughing-stock we would be today, if Galileo had had his way? 😉
Yes it’s much better to believe that the Earth is the center of everything. 🙂
 
No. there were Catholic bishops who converted (or were converted) when some countries took on Lutheranism as a national Church. They did the ordaining, as do their successors. The form, intent, etc. may be in question, but the lines are not, to my knowledge.

However, Lutherans do believe that presbyter ordination is valid under divine law.

Jon
Ok, I haven’t found any Bishops that converted but I have found one Bishop who seemed to have been forced to ordain Lutheran priests as Bishops. I’m not sure if that is in the spirit of apostolic succession, but it is more than some denominations have.
 
Yes it’s much better to believe that the Earth is the center of everything. 🙂
Which is what Protestants believed at the time, and they used the Bible to prove it.There are still Protestant groups who use the Bible as a science text book.

Meanwhile the Pope believed Galileo’s theory could be right but demanded Galileo teach it as a theory or prove it to be true. Galileo could not prove it. Copernicus’ theory wasn’t proven for almost 200 years.

I used to wonder why Galileo didn’t run to Germany to seek protection from the mean ol’ Catholic Church. I have since learned the Protestants probably would have burned him at the stake.
 
…The first century church was liturgical, they hate liturgy. The first century church was no centered on sermons. Then first century church did no have a continous revival meeting, assuming that the people are not yet Christians.

I think many Protestants read thier own theology into the first century church and ignore the historic facts.
…and the pot calls the kettle black.
 
…and the pot calls the kettle black.
Radical all you have to do is read history to learn that the first century church was liturgical, not centered on the sermon, and did not run a continual revival meeting. They were there for people who were already Christians.
 
I think it is an equal question to ask “how would a Catholic cope with being in a first century church?” because so many Catholics supposedly don’t know the teachings of the Church. I believe I’d be uncomfortable. But it would be pretty cool. My family would argue that they would look exactly like them today.
 
Radical all you have to do is read history to learn that the first century church was liturgical, not centered on the sermon, and did not run a continual revival meeting. They were there for people who were already Christians.
We Anglicans would not dispute this fact. Tell that to the low church happy clappy evangalicals and pentecostals 😃
 
I wonder if they had pot luck dinners back then?

I hope they had a Krogers, because I would not have faired well seeing some of the dishes bring in today. :rolleyes:
 
Radical all you have to do is read history to learn that the first century church was liturgical, not centered on the sermon, and did not run a continual revival meeting. They were there for people who were already Christians.
Well, there is liturgical and then there is liturgical…Outside the NT we don’t have a whole lot of extant works from the 1st century….so let’s see how your idea of a liturgical service measures up against the historical record.

First, in those records, “priest” is only used for (a) the Jewish guys serving at the temple in Jerusalem: (b) Christ our high priest; and (c) the whole body of believers. As such, the innovation of having a priest offer some sacrifice on behalf of the congregation came sometime later (and still later came the separation of the priest from the congregation with his back to congregation and speaking a language unknown to the bulk of the congregation). The sacrifice that was envisioned was the believer’s righteous life and in particular his good deeds. As such, prayer itself was considered a sacrifice. The innovation of a real somatic presence arose out of Antioch and was unknown in the west even as late as Augustine

Second, if one looks at Paul’s epistles one finds that the Lord’s Supper was originally part of a meal that involved considerable food and drink (Paul’s objection is that some went hungry so he changed it so that everyone was to eat enough at home so that one didn’t need to eat for hunger). But still, it is everyone participating in a meal with no indication of a priestly consecration of elements.

Further, in Paul’s 1 Cor 14 we find full participation by the congregation. It reads:

*When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

If anyone speaks in a tongue, two–or at the most three–should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. *(NIV)

IMHO that is the description we must work from in understanding what the first services looked like (at least in the Gentile portion of the church). The Didache also speaks of the involvement of prophets and itinerant apostles. So please describe what you think that first century liturgical service looked like, incorporating the absence of any one serving as a priest, a number of men speaking in tongues, a number of men interpreting the tongues, a number of men prophesying, an agape meal (involving the Thanksgiving/Lord’s Supper) and everyone with a hymn, word of instruction or a revelation. Please also provide your 1st century sources for this as we don’t want your response to be the result of reading 2nd or 3rd century (or even later) practices back into the first century church.

If you would like to read more from respected historians regarding the above I would recommend Kilmartin (the Eucharist in the West), Witherington (Making a Meal of It), and Bradshaw (Eucharist Origins and Search for the Origins of Christian Worship).
 
That seems like a good response, Radical. But it fails to include readings from Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch who clearly spell out that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ. Ignatius also clearly says to do nothing without the bishop. Further, he says that where there is Jesus Christ there is the Catholic Church. That’s 107 AD, less than a century from the death of Christ and the establishment of the Church.

Another point I’d like to make is that the Catholic Church comprises about 24 rites - crudly put because I’ve heard that severl of these astually fall undeer a single rite. My point is that the early Church used the languages of the time, Aramaic, still used, Greek and probably Latin in some instances (unsure). Latin was adopted as the official langbuage later on. But Greek appears to be the more traditional and is still used today. In fact, initially the early Christians were Jewish and met in the Temple until they were kicked out later on. They would meet on Sunday to feast with the Love Feast, which may have resembled the Pascal meal. Read the “Lambs Supper” by Scott Hahn. This is not the only place we find this correlation. Though I do not claim to be an expert, I do know the difference between a dog and a stallion. The development of the Divine Liturgy or Mass is very ancient and developed over time being cut back from many hours to around 2 to 3 by several bishops early on. Eventually it narrowed down to what we see today in the Tridintine Latin Mass and then ultimately a return to an earlier celebration that is reflected somewhat in what was once officially referred to as the Novus Ordo. There is no prescription in the rubric on which direction the priest faces. Churches were build to face the east and therefore in a symbolic fascion the priest likewise faced east. The celebration is full of scripture throughout and there are many different Eucharistic prayers.

Yes. The Didache does speak of such things and therefore there aer Charismtics within the body of Christ. I’ve witnessed many and though I am a bit of a skeptic of many that claimed to have such gifts it does indeed exist. But several things are clearly laid out in scritpure and that is the churches hierachy in Titus and Timothy. The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, baptism necessary for salvation, Christmation or Confermation, Marriage being elevated to a sacrament, annointign of the sick, annointing and laying on of hands, particularly for new clergy, so is confession or formal sacrament of Reconciliation. They’re all there. You just have to take off those colored glasses to see face to face. pun intended 😛 (I take this emoticon to be used when being silly, not insult - but someone correct me if I’ve interpreted incorrectly, please).

Yes the priesbyters, also known as elders, were typically men from the local community worthy of respect. Deacons were also chosen too from among the other men. We also konw that in the early Church for many years not all priests were well edudated necessarily initially. Formation of new priests or elders were established. Paul, Titus and Timothy were bishops. The community knew the local community of men better than the bishops and allowed them to present candidates for ordination or annointing and laying on of hands. The same things is basically done today. I was chosen from amont the young men in my community and presented to the bishops or vocation director acting on behalf of the bishop. From there I was scrutinized, similar to back then. We went through many programs and entered a formal formation, Back then the formation may have lasted only a short time but usually around 2 or 3 years. In some cases St. Ambrose was baptized, ordained deacon, then priest and then bishop over a few days. Not exactly the way to go. But he already was a public figure and had a very good reputation. Of course that’s later. But the early church worship eventually merged into what we see today. If you’ve ever attended a Jewish service you’d think you were in a Christian worship until it became clear. I did that once before I was really familiar with the mass. Pretty cool. The tradition stems from Jewish tradition adopted by the Church as the norm. There is another book out there that spells out more clearly than I can about the development of the mass. Somebody post it please. I’m outo f pocket right now.

Oh, my family is full of church restorationists, elders, deacons, preachers. I was one of them before becoming Catholic. Scary thought to have little formal education in bible study and be allowed to preach. I know a lot of elders that their only qualifications for elected is the fact they were among the men not divorced, had a successful business and were basically good men on fire for Christ in most cases. They were older men. The early Church also had many married men in the clergy at all ranks. Celebacy became the norm in the West in about the 10th century.

Sorry, Long post for long post…??
 
They would cope about as well as a contemporary Catholic; horribly! Actually, no modern Christian would “cope” well in any church, prior to 1964! The majority of Catholics would be LOST in the Mass! Certainly, no pre-Vatican II, Roman Catholic would recognize it. The saints would be HORRIFIED! The Reformers may have been misguided, but they too would be APPALLED at the state of their churches! Can you imagine Henry VIII at a Lambeth Conference or Martin Luther at a Lutheran Synod? Don’t be arrogant Catholics! We can ALL work on holiness!:confused:
 
That seems like a good response, Radical. But it fails to include readings from Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch who clearly spell out that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ.
I think you are very mistaken regarding what Clem said….as for Iggy, he uses extremely dramatic language such that you can’t be certain that he is speaking literally. For example:

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

Here is one of the passages that you likely have in mind:

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

You should note that Iggy says Christ’s blood = incorruptible love. Not exactly literal…which isn’t unusual at all. Ignatius tends to stray from the literal which is why you can’t be sure that when he said that the “Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ” that he was talking about a Real Somatic Presence. At that point he is talking about the Docetists. When Ignatius states that the Eucharist is the flesh, he could mean that the Eucharist is the flesh a)literally, b)symbolically, c)sacramentally, d)representatively, or e)mysteriously etc. The Docetists seemed to deny that Christ came in the flesh. As such, they would not confess that the Eucharist was literally the flesh of Christ b/c no such flesh existed. Likewise, they would not confess that the Eucharist was symbolically the flesh of Christ b/c no such flesh existed. In fact, they would not confess that the Eucharist was the flesh of Christ in any way, shape or form b/c (they believed that) no such flesh existed. Here is an article that goes into detail
Ignatius also clearly says to do nothing without the bishop.
yes, and Ignatius seems to be arguing for the adoption of an innovation in his part of the empire that is unknown in other parts, namely the monarchical bishop.
Further, he says that where there is Jesus Christ there is the Catholic Church.
that should be “universal church” as that would convey Ignatius’ meaning….”catholic” has a bit of baggage these days.
Yes. The Didache does speak of such things and therefore there aer Charismtics within the body of Christ. I’ve witnessed many and though I am a bit of a skeptic of many that claimed to have such gifts it does indeed exist.
I share your skepticism
But several things are clearly laid out in scritpure and that is the churches hierachy in Titus and Timothy.
there are hierarchies and then there are hierarchies…simply b/c leadership roles existed, doesn’t mean they resembled current Catholic leadership roles.
The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, baptism necessary for salvation, Christmation or Confermation, Marriage being elevated to a sacrament, annointign of the sick, annointing and laying on of hands, particularly for new clergy, so is confession or formal sacrament of Reconciliation. They’re all there.
well you may think that they are all there, but from over here it looks exactly like you are projecting your own view back onto the words of scripture and thereby imposing a foreign meaning.
You just have to take off those colored glasses to see face to face. pun intended (I take this emoticon to be used when being silly, not insult - but someone correct me if I’ve interpreted incorrectly, please).
I like the style…let’s keep the discussion friendly and light.
Paul, Titus and Timothy were bishops.
not in the way the title is used now
Oh, my family is full of church restorationists, ….
IMHO the validity of the restoration effort depends on what one sees as the essentials….what you see as vital (the absence of which would totally undermine any effort of restoration that lacks it) another fellow will see as not being important at all.
Sorry, Long post for long post…??
thanks for your views
 
They would cope about as well as a contemporary Catholic; horribly! Actually, no modern Christian would “cope” well in any church, prior to 1964! The majority of Catholics would be LOST in the Mass! Certainly, no pre-Vatican II, Roman Catholic would recognize it. The saints would be HORRIFIED! The Reformers may have been misguided, but they too would be APPALLED at the state of their churches! Can you imagine Henry VIII at a Lambeth Conference or Martin Luther at a Lutheran Synod? Don’t be arrogant Catholics! We can ALL work on holiness!:confused:
I won’t speak to the other communions, but on the Luther part, 👍

Jon
 
Everybody has an answer for everything.
Yes, the Protestant point of view was expressed in the second post
Paul writes you a letter telling you that you don’t need to be circumcised. Knowing that the OT scripture teaches that all need to be circumcised, how are you going to test the truth of Paul’s statement?

Radical;7248990 said:
…plus I wouldn’t want to get circumcised anyhow…I’d be inclined to accept that teaching if at all possible.
 
Which is what Protestants believed at the time, and they used the Bible to prove it.There are still Protestant groups who use the Bible as a science text book.

Meanwhile the Pope believed Galileo’s theory could be right but demanded Galileo teach it as a theory or prove it to be true. Galileo could not prove it. Copernicus’ theory wasn’t proven for almost 200 years.

I used to wonder why Galileo didn’t run to Germany to seek protection from the mean ol’ Catholic Church. I have since learned the Protestants probably would have burned him at the stake.
I agree that there are Protestants out there that use the Bible as a science book. As far as Galileo running to Germany, I’m guessing that Lutherans probably wouldn’t have gotten all worked up about science, unless Galileo’s theory was being put out there to deny the Trinity.

Why would the Pope or Rome care weather the Sun circled the Earth or vice versa?
 
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