How would i refute someone's claim that the Devil has "won" if most (or at least greater than 50%) of souls go to Hell?

[blaskoman]

during the conversation, I raised a number of arguments which hopefully were convincing. Firstly, I stated that the Church has not specifically proclaimed that any particular soul is in Hell. We can therefore never know that more people are in Hell rather than in Heaven. I mentioned that God’s mercy has no bounds so many souls could easily at least merit Purgatory. My friend, as a protestant, scoffed at my mentioning of purgatory (but that’s another topic of discussion.) I added that even if, for the sake of argument, more souls were in Hell, this would not mean that God “lost.” Nothing is lacking in God-- nothing can diminish His perfection – even the loss of souls.

 

[Khalid]

You wouldn’t. It’s the unanimous testimony of Church Fathers, and of the Scriptures themselves, about a faithful remnant (and Christ’s saying, “When the Son of man cometh again, will he find faith in the world?”) that the vast majority of souls do go to Hell, and even a majority of professing Christian souls go to Hell. When St Augustine was preaching to a group of Christians, he said that he doubted one in ten were elect (although he may have been hyperbolizing).

Think of this. There are more people alive at this moment than have died in the entire history of humankind. This is true whether one accepts the ancient earth evolutionist calculations, or whether one accepts the Biblical creation-fall-redemption calculations.

There are about 2 billions of Christians (counting all denomionations, even the quais-Christian ones) and 7 billions of people currently alive in the world. Even if every single person who ever claimed to be a Christian currently living was saved, over 72% of the world’s population is lost. Hinduism, Mohammedanism, Buddhism, Atheism, Evolutionism and the like, are not salvific religions.

Now, do you believe that every professed Christian is saved and amongst the elect? Pentecostals, Lutherans, Romans, Orthodox, Presbyterians, and even Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses? Of course not.

Do you believe that every Catholic is saved and amongst the elect? Catholics are about 1 billion of persons, or half the world’s Christian population. If all Catholics and half of the Orthodox and Protestants are saved, over 80% of the world’s population is lost.

Do you believe the Protestants which deny the Incarnation, Trinity, Resurrection, and Atonement are saved? Of course not. Take an additional two percent off. If one takes Augustine’s testimony, only 200m Christians are amongst the elect, and none other, leaving thirty-four out of every thirty-five souls currently living lost.

I could continue multiplying examples, but, suffice it to say, it seems unlikely in the highest that more than one-half of the professed Christians are amongst the elect, at the absolute uttermost limit. (It is more likely to be smaller, based on the consistent Patristic and Scriptural testimony.)

This places an upper limit, according to human reason, that about one in seven persons (14%) currently living will be saved. In pure numerical terms, “Satan ‘won’”, but God created everything, both seen and unseen; he created numbers, and souls, and Satan. Can numbers have a victory over the God who gives them meaning?

 

[Ryuji_Yamazaki]

Khalid, would you believe that Jesus died because of those who were to believe that he is God?

Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me. And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them? Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

Note: “I the LORD (Yahweh) will answer him…”. Let us continue:

Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself: And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

The heathens take Jesus to be claiming his being God because “I the LORD will answer him by myself”. Now look at this highly astonishing prophecy:

And if the prophet be deceived [is prevailed] when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived [prevailed] that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 14.1-9)

Ezekiel is a type of Jesus. He is son of man, prophet & priest. The prophet above is Jesus, the stumblingblock. Unto him of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from God, Jesus claims to be God: I the LORD will answer him by myself. The Pharisees, house of Israel, caused Jesus to be pierced by Rome, stranger that sojourneth in Israel. Both take Jesus to be claiming his being God. Both are mistaken. Therefore I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel, And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him but he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Now the Son of Man is faithful, the outward should shadow, contradict the inward, hence the outward Son of Man is Satan.
If one is outward, sees not the inward Spirit, what shall he do? Either worship Jesus as God, like the heathens do, Satan being the god of the earth, or slaughter him like the Pharisees:

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death. (Leviticus 24.16)

The only way out of the snare is to go inward, see the Spirit of Jesus. The Son of Man, in the outward is Satan: both are the 7 & the 7th, both had one head slain & revived.

 

[Back2Church]

how would i refute someone’s claim that the Devil has “won” if most (or at least greater than 50%) of souls go to Hell?

I don’t see how that makes the devil a winner. He still loses in the end. Just because that many people might lose with him doesn’t make him any less on the losing side.

I think trying to guesstimate how many people are going to hell is a fruitless endeavor, to be honest. Focus on helping people get to heaven, rather than figuring out some way to label the devil as a winner.

 

[Avila123]

Ryuji Yamazaki, I would be grateful if you could state which Bible or publication you are quoting from as it seems that whatever you are looking at, is missing some very important and large chunks of text.

For example, your first quote comes from Ezekiel Chapter 20 but if I look at a Christian Bible, it looks like some lines are totally ignored and words are pulled together to make up a new message (but not the full Biblical message).

With regard to your second quote, you clearly state that it is Ezekiel Chapter 14 v1-9 but in a Christian Bible, you are starting at verse 9.

It would help to know you religion so that responses can be tailored respectfully. I suspect that most readers such as myself, noticing the quotes and your comments at the end, have reached the conclusion that you are not a Christian (in the sense of accepting the Holy Trinity). Consequently, I have tried to moderate my response according.

 

[Ben_F]

Boston lost by just one point last night. They still lost. Jesus won on Sunday, two thousand years ago. The Devil lost. God bless:thumbsup:

 

[mytruepower2]

during the conversation, I raised a number of arguments which hopefully were convincing. Firstly, I stated that the Church has not specifically proclaimed that any particular soul is in Hell. We can therefore never know that more people are in Hell rather than in Heaven. I mentioned that God’s mercy has no bounds so many souls could easily at least merit Purgatory. My friend, as a protestant, scoffed at my mentioning of purgatory (but that’s another topic of discussion.) I added that even if, for the sake of argument, more souls were in Hell, this would not mean that God “lost.” Nothing is lacking in God-- nothing can diminish His perfection – even the loss of souls.

You might also mention that it’s not possible to “lose” more thoroughly than by being separated permanently from God, Remember, this is not a contest between God and the devil. The devil has lost already, in that he’s been cast into Hell. Satan’s aims are not to “win,” but merely to make as many people as possible lose along with him.

God is not impugned when people choose to reject him. This is a terrible loss on the part of individual people, but God loses nothing. He, after all, gave us all our uniqueness, and could just as easily give it to someone else, or to no one, and keep it for himself. We’re not really so irreplaceable when you’re discussing the Most High.

However, although I agree that the Church has not specifically proclaimed that any particular soul is in Hell, nevertheless, your claim that we can therefore never know that more people are in Hell rather than in Heaven seems to be questionable, if by “people,” you mean “human beings.” It’s often believed that there are only half as many angels in Hell as in Heaven, and the angels outnumber humans to a vast degree, so in -that- sense, it’s not indefensible to say that there are more in Heaven than in Hell.

However, Jesus clearly said that the way to perdition is wide, and those who pass through it are many, but the way to salvation is narrow, and “those who find it are few.” That seems to imply that more people are in Hell than in Heaven.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

during the conversation, I raised a number of arguments which hopefully were convincing. Firstly, I stated that the Church has not specifically proclaimed that any particular soul is in Hell. We can therefore never know that more people are in Hell rather than in Heaven. I mentioned that God’s mercy has no bounds so many souls could easily at least merit Purgatory. My friend, as a protestant, scoffed at my mentioning of purgatory (but that’s another topic of discussion.) I added that even if, for the sake of argument, more souls were in Hell, this would not mean that God “lost.” Nothing is lacking in God-- nothing can diminish His perfection – even the loss of souls.

I remember my old pastor commenting once “I sometimes wonder if God wants to win. He doesn’t seem to help His own people much.” And another time we were talking about whether “God is love”. He replied, “I sometimes wonder if it’s true. He seems to write people off pretty easily.”

World War II always appears to me to be a good allegory for the battle between God and the devil. The “good guys” (who have since deteriorated themselves in the moral sense) won the day and the “bad guys” lost. But a lot of lives were destroyed and lost in the process, with terrible suffering. It was a costly, almost pyrrhic victory. For example, about 600,000 Germans were killed by allied bombing, for the cost of about 150,000 allied aircrew. That’s a mere four to one ratio, in what was then the cutting edge of the allied war effort.

Same thing - the loss of souls costs God. The crucifixion of His Son cost God - I don’t think we’ll ever know just how much. There are those who say God’s plans can’t be thwarted. That may be true in the overall sense, but I think His plans for individual people are often wrecked by themselves, or other people, or a mixture of the two.

In the end though, the devil’s fate is the Lake of Fire, which looked like a sea of molten glass to the writer of Revelation. That’s hardly a victory.

The ones who have really lost are those who rejected God, when it’s all said and done. As I understand it, they’ll share the same fate as the devil in the end.

 

[tstrong728]

A little bit off the subject of the question but still relevant I hope, Jesus wins every time we pray - so pray early and pray often. Vote for JESUS!

 

[St_Francis]

Satan wins many battles but loses the war.

 

[SinnersAnonymus]

No one knows the state of another’s soul. That is for God alone to judge. An action sure, we can state that is morally wrong. But their soul is God’s alone to judge.

This is a red herring argument. It will run in circles and we are not supposed to pass that kind of judgment anyway.

Ignore it and move on. The whole protestant understanding of what happens after we die ends up being very black and white. Focus on day to day issues you can demonstrate or have personal knowledge or wisdom about and leave the heavy metaphysics for God to sort them out. In the end, all you can do is state what you know, in which they throw sola scriptoria in your face. By sticking to life experience you change the nature of the debate.

God Bless

 

[Kay_Cee]

You wouldn’t. It’s the unanimous testimony of Church Fathers, and of the Scriptures themselves, about a faithful remnant (and Christ’s saying, “When the Son of man cometh again, will he find faith in the world?”) that the vast majority of souls do go to Hell, and even a majority of professing Christian souls go to Hell. When St Augustine was preaching to a group of Christians, he said that he doubted one in ten were elect (although he may have been hyperbolizing).

Think of this. There are more people alive at this moment than have died in the entire history of humankind. This is true whether one accepts the ancient earth evolutionist calculations, or whether one accepts the Biblical creation-fall-redemption calculations.

There are about 2 billions of Christians (counting all denomionations, even the quais-Christian ones) and 7 billions of people currently alive in the world. Even if every single person who ever claimed to be a Christian currently living was saved, over 72% of the world’s population is lost. Hinduism, Mohammedanism, Buddhism, Atheism, Evolutionism and the like, are not salvific religions.

Now, do you believe that every professed Christian is saved and amongst the elect? Pentecostals, Lutherans, Romans, Orthodox, Presbyterians, and even Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses? Of course not.

Do you believe that every Catholic is saved and amongst the elect? Catholics are about 1 billion of persons, or half the world’s Christian population. If all Catholics and half of the Orthodox and Protestants are saved, over 80% of the world’s population is lost.

Do you believe the Protestants which deny the Incarnation, Trinity, Resurrection, and Atonement are saved? Of course not. Take an additional two percent off. If one takes Augustine’s testimony, only 200m Christians are amongst the elect, and none other, leaving thirty-four out of every thirty-five souls currently living lost.

I could continue multiplying examples, but, suffice it to say, it seems unlikely in the highest that more than one-half of the professed Christians are amongst the elect, at the absolute uttermost limit. (It is more likely to be smaller, based on the consistent Patristic and Scriptural testimony.)

This places an upper limit, according to human reason, that about one in seven persons (14%) currently living will be saved. In pure numerical terms, “Satan ‘won’”, but God created everything, both seen and unseen; he created numbers, and souls, and Satan. Can numbers have a victory over the God who gives them meaning?

Well, I’m confused. I thought the only way to go to hell was to die with unrepented mortal sin. For a sin to be mortal, it has to fit all three conditions: grave matter, knowledge that it is grave matter, and freely chosen. Have I gotten it wrong? You can be as generous as Mother Teresa, give your whole life to loving and serving God, yet still go to hell because you chose the wrong thing to believe?

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ talks about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell in his parable of the sheep and goats. I’ve read it several times, and it seems to me that his criteria in the parable is how we treat Christ by how we treat our fellow man.

 

[agnes_therese]

during the conversation, I raised a number of arguments which hopefully were convincing. Firstly, I stated that the Church has not specifically proclaimed that any particular soul is in Hell. We can therefore never know that more people are in Hell rather than in Heaven. I mentioned that God’s mercy has no bounds so many souls could easily at least merit Purgatory. My friend, as a protestant, scoffed at my mentioning of purgatory (but that’s another topic of discussion.) I added that even if, for the sake of argument, more souls were in Hell, this would not mean that God “lost.” Nothing is lacking in God-- nothing can diminish His perfection – even the loss of souls.

You gave the best arguments I know of, that’s all you can do. Some people prefer to believe that most souls go to hell – often excepting themselves, of course. The fact is, we just don’t know, and won’t know until we get to our own final destination. I suspect there may be some surprises.

 

[JRKH]

** how would i refute someone’s claim that the Devil has “won” if most (or at least greater than 50%) of souls go to Hell?**

I would begin by asking - If in this situation the devil “wins” then who is the adversary that he defeated?

That should tell you a lot about where he is coming from…

Peace
James

 

[Robert_Sock]

** how would i refute someone’s claim that the Devil has “won” if most (or at least greater than 50%) of souls go to Hell?**

I would begin by asking - If in this situation the devil “wins” then who is the adversary that he defeated?

That should tell you a lot about where he is coming from…

Peace
James

Great idea!

 

[ThinkingSapien]

…] I added that even if, for the sake of argument, more souls were in Hell, this would not mean that God “lost.” Nothing is lacking in God-- nothing can diminish His perfection – even the loss of souls.

Unless some one is playing a game with rules defined I’m not sure that “won” or “lost” is relevant in this context. It sounds to much like a general rule of sports games is being applied to the evaluation here.

 

[JRKH]

Unless some one is playing a game with rules defined I’m not sure that “won” or “lost” is relevant in this context. It sounds to much like a general rule of sports games is being applied to the evaluation here.

Well said…

Peace
James

 

[HardRockGTR]

I couldn’t possibly be a Christian and not a universalist. I’ve thought about it and I have my reasons. Problem is, there are biblical passages that both support it as well as passages that refute it.

Also, the devil isn’t a challenger to God. The devil is a mortal, finite being like all humans are, and God is an all-powerful entity. The devil only “wins” if God decides to let him “win”, whatever that means.

 

[BertBlyleven]

Well, the devil is still in hell…hard to call that a victory, no matter who is with you.

God is also in a sense glorified by the souls in hell, in the sense that they are receiving the punishment due out of divine justice. In another sense, these are souls God infinitely loves and desires to be in heaven, so this isn’t absolute.

 

[HardRockGTR]

I think I recall my dad telling me that one Marian apparition claimed that 30% of souls will make it to Purgatory.

Well, the devil is still in hell…hard to call that a victory, no matter who is with you.

God is also in a sense glorified by the souls in hell, in the sense that they are receiving the punishment due out of divine justice. In another sense, these are souls God infinitely loves and desires to be in heaven, so this isn’t absolute.

I like to think of hell less as a punishment and more as a choice. Again, I’d be a universalist if I were Christian, because this doesn’t take into account non-belief (which I am unable to believe is a choice), and because those who turn away from an infinite good merely do it because they don’t know that ultimate good.

Then again, universalism kind of completely defeats the purpose for us to be here on earth…