How would Protestant react when the CC and OC unite?

[Alexius]

Ridgerunner:

I would like to see an EO refute my contention that Protestantism (by and large, not in detail) is closer to potential reunion with the CC than is Orthodoxy. I really would. But to refute me, one would first have to WANT to refute me, and I’m not sure that desire is there. Prove me wrong. I really do respect the apostolic nature of the EO churches, and I would like to think I am wrong.

Ridgerunner: The only Protestant churches I could see re-uniting are the Anglican and possibly Lutheran churches. The problem is that there are many different Anglican churches and Lutheran churches. The seeming defience of Luther is not as much alive in his church today, but I don’t see many opting for union on any terms. Given the constant and growing objections to the Roman Catholic Church within Protestantism (I hear them everyday in my evangelical school), it seems that the complete opposite will occur. The 30,000 “Protestant” churches will become 40,000, 50,000, etc. Do you really expect cradle Protestants to accept the universal infallible Papal hierarchy, purgatory, invocation of Saints, use of images, transubstantiation, treasury of merits, salvation by faith and works, indulgences, Scripture as part of Tradition, superfluous merits, seven sacraments, intercession of the Saints, confession to priest, penance, Mariology (seditiously called “Mariolatry”), and prayers for the dead? The list is never-ending! Certainly there are topics of the list that some accept, but the remaining issues are just as objectionable! One of several High Anglican churches might reunite, but many low evangelical Episcopal churches will refuse. So, you will not see the Anglican Church reunite together by any means. The same goes for the Lutheran churches. You’ll see reunion only by dissatisfied indiduals…

On the other hand, the Orthodox Church is much closer to the Roman Church on many of the issues. Unfortunately, the thought system is entirely different! Absent is the doctrine of atonement, original guilt, purgatory (strictly speaking), the treasury of merits, superfluous merits, and indulgences. Theosis is emphasised rather than justification or sanctification and the position on the original sin is much closer to Judaism than Augustine’s conception. Because of this [Orthodox] conception, there is no need for the Immaculate Conception dogma. Despite this, the Orthodox Church as a whole Church, is much closer to union with Rome than are the many herds of Protestants.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Ridgerunner]

Do you really expect cradle Protestants to accept the universal infallible Papal hierarchy, purgatory, invocation of Saints, use of images, transubstantiation, treasury of merits, salvation by faith and works, indulgences, Scripture as part of Tradition, superfluous merits, seven sacraments, intercession of the Saints, confession to priest, penance, Mariology (seditiously called “Mariolatry”), and prayers for the dead?

Alexius

Well, I see it every Holy Week in my parish, Alexius, and not just a token here and there, either. Every year the parish population gains anywhere from 5-10% through adult conversions from Protestantism. And I live in the Bible Belt. I think I must be considerably older than you. When I was a kid, the KKK was alive and well here, and its membership included the majority of the local notables. Since there were virtually no racial or ethnic minorities here then, the KKK had only one minority to hate: US.

That has changed a lot. I know there is still a lot of hostility toward Catholicism among some Protestants; mostly, however, born of abysmal ignorance. But it’s nowhere near what it once was. Problem is, the harvest is great but the laborers are few.

I can’t generalize too far, but among the “high church” Protestants, there is a new appreciation of the early Church Fathers, and I really am telling you that many Anglicans and Methodists claim to be part of the CC RIGHT NOW. (But with “brotherly differences”, as some put it.) Evangelicals are a different thing altogether, at least around here. The focus of the earnest ones among them is a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. Everything else is distinctly secondary. If they once even suspect that the Eucharist is what the CC says it is, it’s a downhill pull from there.

No, I don’t expect the Lutheran Missouri Synod to suddenly announce that it is going over to the Catholic Church, or the United Methodist Church to do so as a body. What I do see in the future, I think, is a steady change in how the various denominations think, but even more significantly, in how individuals come to see the CC. I can’t explain it. I can only report what I see, and theorize about it, based on my understanding of Protestantism in my area. Among other things, the steadfastness of the CC in the face of the tremendous and disturbing power of secularism has brightened the Roman beacon a bit. Protestantism has, for a long time, maybe always, been a bit like a bunch of ships on a dark sea with captains keeping an eye on the “pole star” of the CC, which unlike other stars, is always there, and in the same place, when they look for it. They might not sail due north, but they still guide their ships by it. I was fascinated when, for example, former Mayor Koch who is a Jew himself, said that very thing. I have read some Protestant theologians who have said very similar things.

Like I said before, I would LOVE to think the CC and the EO could reunify sometime soon. And yes, I do think that would be a very significant event to Protestants. Protestants, perhaps because of their splintered state, generally long for authenticity, and that would enhance their perception of its being with the apostolic churches. But again, based on what I have read time and again in this forum in EO posts, I would put my bet on Protestants before I would put it on the EO churches.

 

[rr1213]

Well, I see it every Holy Week in my parish, Alexius, and not just a token here and there, either. Every year the parish population gains anywhere from 5-10% through adult conversions from Protestantism. And I live in the Bible Belt. I think I must be considerably older than you. When I was a kid, the KKK was alive and well here, and its membership included the majority of the local notables. Since there were virtually no racial or ethnic minorities here then, the KKK had only one minority to hate: US.

That has changed a lot. I know there is still a lot of hostility toward Catholicism among some Protestants; mostly, however, born of abysmal ignorance. But it’s nowhere near what it once was. Problem is, the harvest is great but the laborers are few.

I can’t generalize too far, but among the “high church” Protestants, there is a new appreciation of the early Church Fathers, and I really am telling you that many Anglicans and Methodists claim to be part of the CC RIGHT NOW. (But with “brotherly differences”, as some put it.) Evangelicals are a different thing altogether, at least around here. The focus of the earnest ones among them is a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. Everything else is distinctly secondary. If they once even suspect that the Eucharist is what the CC says it is, it’s a downhill pull from there.

No, I don’t expect the Lutheran Missouri Synod to suddenly announce that it is going over to the Catholic Church, or the United Methodist Church to do so as a body. What I do see in the future, I think, is a steady change in how the various denominations think, but even more significantly, in how individuals come to see the CC. I can’t explain it. I can only report what I see, and theorize about it, based on my understanding of Protestantism in my area. Among other things, the steadfastness of the CC in the face of the tremendous and disturbing power of secularism has brightened the Roman beacon a bit. Protestantism has, for a long time, maybe always, been a bit like a bunch of ships on a dark sea with captains keeping an eye on the “pole star” of the CC, which unlike other stars, is always there, and in the same place, when they look for it. They might not sail due north, but they still guide their ships by it. I was fascinated when, for example, former Mayor Koch who is a Jew himself, said that very thing. I have read some Protestant theologians who have said very similar things.

Like I said before, I would LOVE to think the CC and the EO could reunify sometime soon. And yes, I do think that would be a very significant event to Protestants. Protestants, perhaps because of their splintered state, generally long for authenticity, and that would enhance their perception of its being with the apostolic churches. But again, based on what I have read time and again in this forum in EO posts, I would put my bet on Protestants before I would put it on the EO churches.

A truly interesting, if different, perspective. I think what you describe above may result in more individual conversions from Protestant Churches to the Catholic Church. I still think though that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are closer to each other doctrinally than to the Protestant Churches so, if entire bodies move, it would be more likely to seen rapproachment between the CC and the EO.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think what you describe above may result in more individual conversions from Protestant Churches to the Catholic Church. I still think though that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are closer to each other doctrinally than to the Protestant Churches so, if entire bodies move, it would be more likely to seen rapproachment between the CC and the EO.

You might be right, and I wouldn’t argue the point. But it just happens that today a lady in another thread about something entirely different cited the following quote from noted Southern author, Flannery O’Connor:

“It is an embarrassment to our fundamentalist neighbors to realize that they are doctrinally nearer their traditional enemy, the Church of Rome, than they are to modern Protestantism. The day may come when Catholics will be the ones who maintain the spiritual traditions of the South.”
—from “The Presence of Grace” and Other Book Reviews by Flannery O’Connor, compiled by Leo J. Zuber (Athens, GA: University of Georgia Press, 1983), p. 77.

I was thunderstruck, not just because it is so widely thought otherwise, but because I have long thought the same thing myself. I’m going to see if I can’t get the publication to see what her premises were for her statement. Nobody, and I mean nobody, understood the soul of the South like Flannery O’Connor did.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I think that, barring a miracle, (which we certainly believe a real possibility ), this reunion will not be anytime soon. And because changes within the Protestant/Evangelical/Fundamentalist communities happen with lightening speed, (compared with the Catholic Church ), we certainly don’t know what the shape and texture of the Protestants/Evangelicals/Fundamentalists will be at that time. For all we know, they may be extinct, having either fallen away into the great liberal abyss, or individually or in small groups already be home in the Catholic Church. We can only pray for their homecoming!

Ridgerunner:

I do agree with you that the Protestants are much closer to the Catholics than they are aware (or would ever admit, at least until they come to understand that it wouldn’t be the end of the world to admit it!). Those who sincerely want to know the truth about what the Catholic Church teaches and are not afraid to know it, they are the closest to the Catholic Church by far already, they are not afraid of truth and the faith and reason that leads us to it. In other words, if when you hand them the Catechism to read, and they don’t drop it like it’s a pagan tallisman whose evil spirit will jump on them, then you have a chance in getting them to grasp what the Church is really about!

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

Unity should be very simple, it should hang on the greatest commandments.

How can we love Christians of other denominations as we love ourselves?

Christ said love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples. We are just too hard hearted and stubborn, it is a lack of love that separates us all.

In the spirit of searching for greater friendships

Eric

 

[Montalban]

Since there has been some dialogue between the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Christianity and the the Catholic Church; a likelihood of unification seem possible.

What if the Catholic Church and Orthodox reunited, how would Protestants react to this?

If you think it’s ‘likely’ then you probably misunderstand the differences between us. We’re not simply ‘catholics without a pope’.

 

[christianley]

Since there has been some dialogue between the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Christianity and the the Catholic Church; a likelihood of unification seem possible.

What if the Catholic Church and Orthodox reunited, how would Protestants react to this?

Fundamentalists in my area of the country are already predicting the emergence of an anti-Christ one world religion led by the Pope. The unification of Eastern and Western Christians would only provide fuel for that belief. I’m sure they believe Islam will somehow be involved in it as well. And I’m sure if the Catholic Church gave up anything significant to help bring about the unification of East and West that a number of conservative Catholics might bolt over to Protestantism – say if the Pope allowed married priests or birth control as the Eastern Orthodox do. I don’t see any reunification happening – how could the birth control issue be resolved for one thing? And would the East be willing to accept the Augustinian definition of Original Sin? I doubt it strongly. An intersting site:

oca.org/QA.asp?ID=4&SID=3

 

[a_cermak]

Since there has been some dialogue between the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Christianity and the the Catholic Church; a likelihood of unification seem possible.

What if the Catholic Church and Orthodox reunited, how would Protestants react to this?

A lot would depend on how they worked out the thorny issue of Papal supremacy, what it meant and how it would be practised. Then there would be questions of doctrine and how they were settled. Questions about Original Sin and theosis. Are the EO going to be able to continue keeping the faith they’ve kept since the time of Christ?

If those types of issues are worked out in a positive manner, you might see some Protestant groups moving back (though not the Evangelicals) toward unification, though dealing with their unique conditions would be difficult too. You might also see a re-union with some of the Utrecht groups of Old Roman Catholics.

 

[BrianH]

I do not think most would care at all Manny. For those of us who understand the ramifications, we would be happy.
Brian

 

[Titus03]

Well, as a Protestant, I personally expect the CC and the OC to come together within my life time. I would be anxious and scared, but still utterly excited. I say this because when I see such things as church factions uniting, the European Union, a one world currency on the horizon, I see Revelations. I read through the Left Behind Series, and I also studied through Revelations, and I liked their idea of a One World Religion, and I think it is a commonly accepted idea that the world is moving towards. It is called the Ecumenical Movement.

A recent gathering of Catholics and Protestants sat down and wrote a book declaring their similarities and how they can relate to one another and be in communion together as one. Many of you find this to be a wonderful thing, I would think, from reading over your posts, but I find this to be terrifying. Unifcation in religion is horrible, unless you’re the dominant one. Someone somewhere has to forfeit some of their beliefs for the compromise to work, and I strongly believe that the Catholic Church will be the dominant church in the very near future.

Further more, I expect the Protestant churches to return to the Catholic church within my life time. Of course, there will always be dissenters, those that stay behind, but they will be a vast minority, amongst a sea of converts heading back to the RCC. I am no prophet, no soothsayer, and I am not claiming any of this to be fact, but the OC and the CC coming together could very well be a precursor in the situation I stated above. Any thoughts? Comments?

 

[cazayoux]

:snip:

I read through the Left Behind Series, and I also studied through Revelations, and I liked their idea of a One World Religion, and I think it is a commonly accepted idea that the world is moving towards.

:snip:

Of course, there will always be dissenters, those that stay behind, but they will be a vast minority, amongst a sea of converts heading back to the RCC.

:snip:

Remember that those ‘left behind’ on earth in the days of Noah and Lot were the good guys. The bad were removed from the earth by fire and flood.

This is a major premise blower for the self-proclaimed experts LaHaye and Jenkins and their Left Behind series. (yes, I’ve read them also)

I need a bumber sticker “In case of rapture, can I have your car?”

Salut!

michel

 

[Titus03]

The idea of being left behind, as per the series, is being left after those in Christ rise up to be with Him. I am not accepting nor denying this theology, we’ll see whether or not Christ’s people are here during the tribulation or not when it arrives, if it hasn’t already arrived.

I don’t think the self-proclaimed experts crack was really neccesary, I mean, you said yourself you read the books, so I assume you understand the research that was required for them to be able to mesh fiction with theory and teach it in the form of a novel.

 

[Titus03]

Sorry, I couldn’t figure out how to edit my previous post, if you can edit at all. But, on thinking more into your post about Lot and Noah, Lot was taken out of Sodom and Gamorrah while the evil people were “Left behind,” the same with Noah as he was taken away in the ark, while the evil people were “left behind” to die in the flood. I am sure this doesn’t matter nor does it amount to anything, but your post just nagged at my mind, ha, and it felt not quite right. Ha. Sorry.

 

[colliric]

I agree with the poster who said you would see all types of reactions. I also think it would depend on how the reunification took place and pursuant to what terms. A complete capitulation by the Orthodox to Papal Supremacy and Infallability would probably be looked at with dismay by Protestants. Yet, if reunification took place according to a structure that was less than complete capitulation, then perhaps it could be viewed as a possible template for an eventual reunion of some of the “more Catholic” Protestant Churches with Rome.

In other words the Anglicans who still consider themselves “Anglo-Catholics”. But I doubt they’d give up their “easy divorce” ideology(that saw the king get them to offshoot from Rome) and Shakesperian-like hymnals.

Does anyone else think that the Catholic Church’s acceptance and usage of the Anglican created Alpha Course may have been an initial step? or was it just something which simply benefited the whole of Christianity and taught the shared doctrines so well that the catholic church embraced it too?

 

[Contarini]

Since there has been some dialogue between the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Christianity and the the Catholic Church; a likelihood of unification seem possible.

What if the Catholic Church and Orthodox reunited, how would Protestants react to this?

I would knock on the door of the nearest Catholic/Orthodox church that very day and beg to be received at the earliest opportunity.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

In other words the Anglicans who still consider themselves “Anglo-Catholics”. But I doubt they’d give up their “easy divorce” ideology(that saw the king get them to offshoot from Rome) and Shakesperian-like hymnals.

Anglicanism did not embrace an easy divorce ideology until recently. You completely misunderstand the HenryVIII issue, which concerned an annulment.

Beautiful language, indeed, is hard to let go of, because beauty is a reflection of God. The fact that you can sneer at it doesn’t say much for your religion, frankly.

Edwin

 

[Brian_C]

Let’s just all pray it does eventually happen.

 

[colliric]

If the Anglo-Catholic branch of the Anglican faith rejoined with the CC and the OC, we would truly have a universal church(not that we don’t already have one, only it would be more so).

 

[Contarini]

Well, as a Protestant, I personally expect the CC and the OC to come together within my life time. I would be anxious and scared, but still utterly excited. I say this because when I see such things as church factions uniting, the European Union, a one world currency on the horizon, I see Revelations. I read through the Left Behind Series,

And you still buy all this dispensationalist End-Times stuff? You must have been very strongly committed to it beforehand. If I hadn’t already abandoned that view, I’d have found it hard to hold on to after reading LaHaye’s repulsive trash. I can’t think of one thing good or holy about those books.

and I also studied through Revelations,
and I liked their idea of a One World Religion, and I think it is a commonly accepted idea that the world is moving towards. It is called the Ecumenical Movement.

Yes–what my grandfather (who shared your views) called “the hell-inspired scheme of amalgamation.”

But my grandfather was wrong. I doubt he ever actually met an ecumenist. I have. The ones I know are deeply committed to Christ and are not part of a scheme for creating one world religion. Ecumenism and interfaith relations are two different things. Geoffrey Wainwright, for instance (whom I know slightly from my days as a grad student at Duke), is one of the leading ecumenists in the world (he’s the chair of the Methodist-Catholic dialogue and has been involved in some of the major doctrinal agreements reached by the WCC). Someone less likely to compromise truth for the sake of unity is hard to imagine. In fact, Wainwright’s faults are in the other direction–he’s a grumpy curmudgeon who offends the secularists in the religion department both by his steadfast Christian faith and his rather difficult (though IMHO loveable) personality. He’s always complaining that things are going to hell in a handbasket and that Duke is becoming more and more secular.

Another eminent ecumenist (whom I didn’t know personally) was Lesslie Newbigin, one of the founders of the Church of South India. Try reading some of his books sometime–Foolishness to the Greeks, or The Gospel in a Pluralist Society, or The Household of God. Again, this was a guy with a firm grasp of the Christian essentials and no disposition whatever to compromise them.

I used to think as you do. But the facts simply don’t bear this view out. Yes, the big ecumenical mergers are generally unfriendly to orthodox Christianity (Wainwright strongly opposes Methodist moves toward the UCC, by the way). But the people who are interested in real ecumenical dialogue rather than corporate mergers are not people who are trying to sell out the Christian faith–not in my experience anyway.

Ecumenism is not about compromising on the essentials of the Faith, it’s about recognizing that these (the Incarnation, the Resurrection, the Trinity, salvation by grace, etc.) are the truly important things, and that the stuff most of us have been fighting over for hundreds of years is less important (though not unimportant).

If you believe that the one really important thing is faith in Jesus Christ, then you are an ecumenist whether you like it or not.

Unifcation in religion is horrible, unless you’re the dominant one.

You’re taking a purely postmodern view here, in which the only thing that matters is power. What about truth?

Either Jesus Christ is the center of our faith or He isn’t. If He is, then we need to seek unity with all who believe in Him. It’s as simple as that. Forget the amorality of Left Behind, where all that matters is to puzzle out the clues (no wonder both LB and DaVinci Code were so popular–they both appeal to the same basic impulse). What God asks of us is faith, love, and charity, not decoding skill.

In Christ,

Edwin