How would you answer this atheist's question?

[Dan123]

Child sexual exploits of Ancient Greece to present day bear that out as does any isolated prison culture.

And yet the vast majority of people, of all religions and none, agree that exploitation of children is wrong. You can justify it with your religion, I can justify it by appealing to wellbeing. We criminalize it almost universally across the planet. I’m not really sure what the issue here. Do you think I’m arguing sexual exploitation of children is okay? Do you think exploitation of children is exclusive to non-theists?

And what is the sado masochist doing that I’m supposed to pass judgement on? Is their partner consenting?

I’m going to be honest I don’t feel like you addressed my rather long explanation at all and just fell back on strawmen arguments. “Punishment” isn’t a moral foundation and you saying atheists claim that doesn’t stand in for evidence of such.

 

[FiveLinden]

Am I wrong in thinking that in Catholic tough it is right, and a duty, to the part in a just war and that the killing of children as an indirect effect of prosecuting the just war is acceptable morally? So using the shorthand of ‘God asked’ to mean ‘doing what is right’ surely the answer to the question the OP asked would be ‘yes’.

 

[redcatholic]

I’m too busy to get really in depth but my post was not a defense of ANY theists moral codes. But rather showing that the “atheist” moral code cannot stand alone. I felt it was adequate for the point.

 

[Freddy]

I don’t believe that God would test us in the same way as he tested Abraham, so we would not be asked to sacrifice a life for God.

The whole scenario has me nonplussed, Eric. God wouldn’t ‘test’ anyone by ordering to kill someone. That would be one of the cruelest acts imaginable. And if someone needed to die then God is omnipotent. It’s not like He’d need some help. Didn’t He kill everyong on the planet in the flood? Didn’t He kill everyone in Soddom and Gomorrah (including children)?

My response.
“If God commanded it I would do it”
“By the way my atheist friend, what is it that you rely on to not rape or kill another person?”

Well, Red - this is something you can put your mind to and give us all your explanation. What do you think it can be?

So, what’s the basis of your morality, then? If it’s personal opinion, then it’s merely subjective, so basically, what you’re saying is that everyone does what they want. Is that the basis for a system of morals?

The feelings you get of shame, of honour, of pity, of sympathy - all the emotions that govern how you act with others, do you think these are all restricted to Christians, Gorgias?

 

[Pattylt]

The ridiculous argument that atheists have no reason to be moral without God could be easily proven if atheists were immoral monsters. The problem is, they aren’t. Sometimes, they are even more moral than Christians.

If atheists are as moral as Christians, what is the Christians explanation then? Could it perhaps be that most people are just moral beings to begin with?

 

[Benadam]

Abraham enjoyed a relationship with God in which communication was unambiguous and in real time.
So Abraham had no doubt about who he was talking to or what was said.

I like this example. Genesis 18

So Sarah laughed[f] to herself and said, “Now that I am worn out and my husband is old, am I still to have sexual pleasure?” 13 But the Lord said to Abraham: “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really bear a child, old as I am?’ 14 Is anything too marvelous for the Lord to do? At the appointed time, about this time next year, I will return to you, and Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah lied, saying, “I did not laugh,” because she was afraid. But he said, “Yes, you did.”

 

[RoseScented]

If atheists are as moral as Christians, what is the Christians explanation then?

I’m up for correction if I’m wrong, but I believe the explanation would be what’s found in the belief that all humans have the natural law written in everyone’s heart. CCC 1954 “Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie”

There’s more in the Natural Moral Law section of the Catechism, but in general I’d say that sentence get to the heart of it. It’s possible, by human reason and the use of our free will, to determine the good and the evil in our lives and to act upon that. However, the Christian response would still root that in the individual participating with the Lord, even unknowingly, due to human nature and the way we were created.

 

[Benadam]

I think morals are awakened when an infant is able to know that it’s mother is more than an object that serves it’s needs. When it can know it’s mother is autonomous, it can know love and bond and empathize because it’s recognized the existence of ‘other’.
The Child knows it’s loved and knowing that, it can return love to her.
The ten Commandments are naturally obeyed to man with an intellect unobstructed by the law of death that a body that dies is helpless to disobey.

 

[esieffe]

If I had the kind of relationship with God that Abraham did and was wandering around a desert with God’s chosen people, had seen burning bushes and the like, yes, yes I would, but I would also be familiar with that story.

 

[Freddy]

The ridiculous argument that atheists have no reason to be moral without God could be easily proven if atheists were immoral monsters. The problem is, they aren’t. Sometimes, they are even more moral than Christians.

If atheists are as moral as Christians, what is the Christians explanation then? Could it perhaps be that most people are just moral beings to begin with?

If you don’t mind, Patty, I’m going to head a couple of people off at the pass before we get some fallacious arguments about the Usual Atheist Suspects as a contrived prop for the ‘immoral atheist’ nonsense.

‘My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.’ That was written by some guy called Adolf. Bad dude. Seems he had some connection with Christianity and a belief in God. But let’s say that all the evidence pointing to that fact is wrong. Then well done. We now have one single example of an atheist without morals. Because it’s not likely that the whole of Germany became atheist once Adolf got into power. And I can’t recall reading that the Nazis specifically asked for atheist volunteers to run Dachau and Auschwitz.

Likewise with Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin. When he commited to removing the church (or most of it) from Russia then did the entire population of the country become atheist overnight? Nah. So despite his early training as a priest he was definitely an atheist. So we now have two.

Hardly a number that’s going to carry any weight in any proposed argument as to the immorality of atheism.

 

[Freddy]

Pattylt:

If atheists are as moral as Christians, what is the Christians explanation then?

I’m up for correction if I’m wrong, but I believe the explanation would be what’s found in the belief that all humans have the natural law written in everyone’s heart.

I’d agree with that. With the obvious point being made that you would believe that it was written by God and I believe that it’s naturally evolved.

 

[Pattylt]

Hardly a number that’s going to carry any weight in any proposed argument as to the immorality of atheism.

I’d add that these men were mentally deranged in spite of anything to do with their atheism. They were first and foremost a cult of personality. Their atheism was due to not allowing anything to interfere with goals. Every evil atheist was also determined to control by their cult of personality. It had nothing to do with the atheism of today based on reason and logic. They were as far from reasonable and logically driven as can be!

 

[Vico]

One time an atheist asked me if I would kill a child if God commanded me to. Obviously I just said it was an absurd question. There’s no reason to answer it since God would not command me to do that. But he kept telling me to answer and I didn’t really know what to say. Of course my immediate reaction was no. Duh. Obviously not. But then I remembered the Abraham and Isaac story. So maybe it wouldn’t be that obvious of an answer? What would you respond to this atheist’s question?

Killing a child could be a moral choice if all other alternatives were exhausted and the child was doing something that would kill others. So God could command such a thing.

 

[Freddy]

rose.gold:

One time an atheist asked me if I would kill a child if God commanded me to. Obviously I just said it was an absurd question. There’s no reason to answer it since God would not command me to do that. But he kept telling me to answer and I didn’t really know what to say. Of course my immediate reaction was no. Duh. Obviously not. But then I remembered the Abraham and Isaac story. So maybe it wouldn’t be that obvious of an answer? What would you respond to this atheist’s question?

Killing a child could be a moral choice if all other alternatives were exhausted and the child was doing something that would kill others. So God could command such a thing.

As opposed to literally any other option that God could conceive. Like ensuring that the child was never born in the first place. It’s not like it’s going to be a surprise to God how the kid turns out.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Hardly a number that’s going to carry any weight in any proposed argument as to the immorality of atheism.

I’d add that these men were mentally deranged in spite of anything to do with their atheism. They were first and foremost a cult of personality. Their atheism was due to not allowing anything to interfere with goals. Every evil atheist was also determined to control by their cult of personality. It had nothing to do with the atheism of today based on reason and logic. They were as far from reasonable and logically driven as can be!

And in Hitler’s case he might well have imagined he was doing God’s work by exterminating the Jews. From Mein Kampf: ‘Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.’

That first phrase could equally have been said by Abraham as he prepared to kill his son.

 

[Gorgias]

I also don’t want to live in a society where rape and murder are prevalent or condoned, as it vastly increases the chances I or someone I care about, or by extension anyone, will be raped or murdered.

OK. What about a society in which their moral stances go beyond yours? Is that ok?

Even if you want to rebut that you adhere to God’s morality there’s still subjectivity in deciding which God

As to ‘everyone does what they want’, I mean that’s basically what happens in a pluralistic society isn’t it? We create laws and social norms based on those nearly universally agreed on harms to wellbeing like rape and murder, and we leave things like taking the Lord’s name in vain out of the law as it does not correlate to wellbeing (well in the demonstrable way we prefer when adopting laws).

Actually, restrictions against obscene speech were part of the law up until relatively recently. So, I think you’re simply making the case that, in the absence of an objective standard, “anything goes” (and often, “anything” itself merely means “anything the ruling class wants”).

Do you think I’m arguing sexual exploitation of children is okay? Do you think exploitation of children is exclusive to non-theists?

No, but I think that it’s a fringe case that doesn’t do anything useful to work toward understanding what’s in play. Pick something hard to discuss; kicking puppies isn’t anything that anyone would argue over.

The feelings you get of shame, of honour, of pity, of sympathy - all the emotions that govern how you act

Are you claiming that moral law is mere codified emotion?

I’m going to head a couple of people off at the pass before we get some fallacious arguments about the Usual Atheist Suspects as a contrived prop for the ‘immoral atheist’ nonsense.

Yes… picking out the bad apples and holding them up as if they were the norm is dirty pool. You know… like pointing to pedophile priests and positing that Catholicism itself is rotten to the core.

 

[Vico]

…
As opposed to literally any other option that God could conceive. Like ensuring that the child was never born in the first place. It’s not like it’s going to be a surprise to God how the kid turns out.

The Holy Trinity permits a person to be good or evil, that is why mortal sin is possible.

 

[PennyinCanada]

If I heard a voice that commanded me to murder a child, I would remember the commandment ‘Thou shalt not murder’.

Earth is a battle ground of good and evil. Test the spirit before doing an action.

 

[PennyinCanada]

You know, that question is so lacking any imagination or effort. Sounds like he just wanted to badger you and be a bully. Call him on that if you are in that situation again.

Let’s say artificial intelligence from the future that looked human, came back in time, and asked me to experience time travel, and I agreed. Then I was transported in a moment, and was standing and watching a boy playing outside. The AI told me the year and location and told me that the child was Adolf Hitler. What would I like to do? I could kill him now and change the course of human history and suffering in an incredible way. Or, pass this opportunity by and then allow, by my inaction, for Hitler to grow up and impact the world for evil, death and destruction.

Ok. Let him answer his own question. lol

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

The feelings you get of shame, of honour, of pity, of sympathy - all the emotions that govern how you act

Are you claiming that moral law is mere codified emotion?

I’m going to head a couple of people off at the pass before we get some fallacious arguments about the Usual Atheist Suspects as a contrived prop for the ‘immoral atheist’ nonsense.

Yes… picking out the bad apples and holding them up as if they were the norm is dirty pool. You know… like pointing to pedophile priests and positing that Catholicism itself is rotten to the core.

I can be quite clear on this as I know it’s applicable to all people. We all feel shame at some point. And we do our best to avoid it. We all feel pride. We don’t want to be considered a coward. Or dishonourable. Or greedy. We would prefer it if people considered us trustworthy. And courageous. Fearless. And benevolent. We are all concerned, to some extent or another, with how we are perceived by others. And all those emotions guide us in our actions.

Jesus emphasised these emotions in his teachings. Be courageous. Be humble. Be charitable.

Again I will ask. Are these emotions - the ones that guide us in our interactions with others, restricted to Christians?

And as regards the bad apples, I was doing just the opposite. They are exceptions which prove the rule. Just as I wouldn’t condemn all Catholics because of the actions of a few, I wouldn’t tar all Germans or Russians with the atheist brush because someone considers the head honcho to be an atheist.

The argument runs: Stalin and he was an atheist and caused the death of millions so therefore atheism must be really bad. The only number that is applicable is not the millions. It’s the one.