How would you answer this (discussion of evil)?

[MichaelLewis]

Dennis wrote:

Could you please define what you mean by incompatiblist free will?

Incompatiblism is the doctrine that free will and determinism are incompatible. Determinism is simply the doctrine that every event is determined by some set of causes, each of which in turn is determined by some other set of causes, all the way back to the beginning of the universe. Compatiblists like myself believe that free will is compatible with determinism. My freedom is constituted by simply by the fact that I can do what I want to do; so it is ok if God set up the universe in such a way that I would act the way I act. That doesn’t hurt my freedom. Libertarians (metaphysical, not political) believe that free will and determinism are incompatible, but we do have free will. Event libertarians believe we derive it from random events in the brain, which play a part in determining what actions we take. Agent libertarians (This seems to be the catholic position.) believe we get it from somewhere else. They’ll say things like “We just choose. Our decisions are undetermined but they come from us.” I think this position is incoherent. There is an extended debate about the issue at http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=44720

I am not saying that the ideal world would be one where the worst evil is a paper cut.

I didn’t mean to imply that you were saying that. You had asked: “How could anyone develop virtue in a world were the worst that could happen is a paper cut?” Well, as you implied, we would take them more seriously if that were the worst suffering that we could experience; we would “storm the gates of heaven” over paper cuts. I agree that we might question God because of them, but once he showed us how we need some suffering if we are to have agent-libertarian free will, and how valuable agent-libertarian free will is, we wouldn’t complain anymore; we wouldn’t want to trade the release from suffering for our free will.

The only world without evil is a world without freedom. Can you even imagine a world such as this?

As I just explained, my conception of free will is compatible with God arranging things so that we don’t sin. But even granting your conception of free will, this isn’t the best of all possible worlds that an all-powerful God could have arranged.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

MichaelLewis

If God is on your side then you have a better chance of ultimately winning than you would if you were on the side of the army with the greatest number of divisions.

Did you ever know Evil to enjoy a permanent triumph?

What’s so noble about martyrdom if you really believe you are going to heaven?

The nobility is in one’s faith and courage combined. Some have thrown away their faith and courage when threatened with death. Or some have sold it for thirty pieces of silver.

A lot of people who didn’t believe in an afterlife have died for causes they did believe in.

You mean the atheist Hitler? He only believed in himself. Can you give me a more viable atheist candidate?

All things being equal, aren’t they more admirable than the believing Christian martyrs, for whom death is just a doorway to bliss?

What have you got against bliss? And why would an atheist willingly give up his life if there is nothing on the other side of death?

 

[huskerfan]

A result of evil is good. The result of anything bad is good. My sister lost her son when he was just a little boy. As horrible as it was it brought our family back together and softened my dad. Earthquakes, floods, fires, the holocaust, murder, etc…brings out the good in other people. I do not blame God for anything bad in my life. It was either the direct result of something I did or it made me look at things in a different light and saw how wonderful the good was that came out of it. That said, I also would never wish bad on someone nor do I wish anything bad to happen to me.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Michael Lewis

But even granting your conception of free will, this isn’t the best of all possible worlds that an all-powerful God could have arranged.
**
*So if you were the all-powerful God, how would you have arranged the best of all possible worlds? *

 

[MichaelLewis]

*So if you were the all-powerful God, how would you have arranged the best of all possible worlds? *

Well, this is what I would do (though I’m not suggesting that there aren’t other plans that benevolent people wouldn’t find just as good, or a little better or worse):

I would create other beings with omniscience and divine creative abilities. I would give them their own sub-universes, over which they would have complete control (though not over other, ‘visiting’ gods, whom they could only expel), with the exception that they would have to give any sentient beings they created there an existence in that universe which was by their own lights worth having on balance, and would eventually end with their own godhood. I would let them, alone or in conjunction with others who would choose to work with them, create whatever world pleased them. Perhaps they would find god-hood boring. They might opt to temporarily empty themselves of some of their knowledge and power, so they could have the pleasure of working up to something. It would be up to them, and I’m sure they would make wise judgments for themselves, as I created them with omniscience and good judgment.

Michael

 

[huskerfan]

Michael,

Are you serious or is this a joke? I haven’t figured you out yet? :banghead:

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Tietjen:

Hitler had the backing of the people he did not just say, “I’m in charge.”.

Hitler did not have the backing of his people for the death camps, if that is what you mean.

There were at least thirty (30) assassination attempts against Hitler: mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/?tid=9488&ttype=2

And if you’re gonna personify evil, include Trotsky, Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, and homosexual Catholic predatory Priests, plus a whole bevy of other cretins in your ahistorical opinion.

 

[MichaelLewis]

huskerfan:

Michael,

Are you serious or is this a joke? I haven’t figured you out yet? :banghead:

About what I would do if I were God? Yes. I admit it is an unusual sort of proposal to make, but I was asked the question!!
Michael

 

[Kevin_Walker]

The official Catholic Church definition is Evil is the absence of Good.

Now another view of why would God allow evil to exist is to give man a choice, which helps justify the existence of Free Will.

Another view why God would allow evil or evil things to happen to innocent people is to guarantee them future rewards in the next world; this is to explain why children suffer and die.

Yet another view why God in his infinite wisdom and mercy would allow evil is that evil has as much right to exist as any other concept or behaviour.

Evil can exist without impuning Gods total goodness by observing some of the benefits of evil: the increase of a learning curve by others; evil leads man to appreciate the existance of the one true God all the more; evil develops self-sufficiency because we cannot wish our misfortunes onto others which would be evil; the presence of evil causes increases in certain other skills and development (blind have acute hearing & touch etc.); the presence of evil increases goodness; and evil can have beneficial effects such as when a good and loving father spanks his errant son.

Why would God create evil in the first place and allow it to exist? This has been a thorny theological topic for the past thousand or more years, a topic called Theodicy. It is a mystery man might not come to know until God wills it.

 

[MichaelLewis]

Gilbert cited me and wrote:
*
If God is on your side then you have a better chance of ultimately winning than you would if you were on the side of the army with the greatest number of divisions.

Did you ever know Evil to enjoy a permanent triumph?

*I don’t understand the relevance of your question. I’ve never know ANYTHING to have a permanent triumph.
What’s so noble about martyrdom if you really believe you are going to heaven?

The nobility is in one’s faith and courage combined. Some have thrown away their faith and courage when threatened with death. Or some have sold it for thirty pieces of silver.

*Ok, but how does that compare to believing that death entails ceasing to exist, and yet still loving something else enough to die for it? That is much more selfless, isn’t it?
A lot of people who didn’t believe in an afterlife have died for causes they did believe in.

You mean the atheist Hitler? He only believed in himself. Can you give me a more viable atheist candidate?

Yeah, Hitler; that’s who I had in mind. He was no atheist, you know. He was a cafeteria catholic who believed that providence had intended him for his mission, and had saved him from assassination. And it doesn’t look as if he died for the sake of anyone else; his cause was lost, and he didn’t want to endure the indignity of capture.
I was thinking of communists (not that I’m at all a fan of communism; quite the opposite) who were willing to sacrifice their lives and everything they had to the party, during the Russian revolution and afterwards. Consider also non-believing parents who give their lives for their children.

What have you got against bliss? And why would an atheist willingly give up his life if there is nothing on the other side of death?

Bliss is great. But sometimes people love other people or things so much they are willing to sacrifice for them without expecting anything in return (in this life or in heaven). If Christians can’t appreciate the beauty of this, it speaks very poorly for Christianity, I think.

 

[dennisknapp]

MichaelLewis:

As I just explained, my conception of free will is compatible with God arranging things so that we don’t sin. But even granting your conception of free will, this isn’t the best of all possible worlds that an all-powerful God could have arranged.

How do you know this is not the best possible world? How do you know that this world is not the best option for those with freewill?

What would a world where people are free and yet unable to sin look like?

Peace

 

[MichaelLewis]

dennisknapp:

How do you know this is not the best possible world? How do you know that this world is not the best option for those with freewill?

Because I can think of better options consistent with people being able to choose evil. (I have already described them.)

What would a world where people are free and yet unable to sin look like?

Isn’t that what heaven is supposed to be like?
As I indicated, it would be a world where people can break the rules, but other beings are protected from the results of their actions, in any number of ways.

 

[huskerfan]

MichaelLewis:

Isn’t that what heaven is supposed to be like?
As I indicated, it would be a world where people can break the rules, but other beings are protected from the results of their actions, in any number of ways.

Michael,

You exasperate me but that probably goes along with my blind faith. Probably also goes along with me not being as intelligent as you. Heaven would not be a place of rules because there would be no need for rules. Heaven is a place of perfect harmony.

 

[MichaelLewis]

huskerfan:

Heaven would not be a place of rules because there would be no need for rules. Heaven is a place of perfect harmony.

I just think a benevolent and all-powerful God would give us heaven right away. I see no reason to have anything less, if the best is possible. Why not just give up omnipotence? The problem of evil wouldn’t be a problem at all if this was simply the best God could do. Would that really be contrary to Christianity?

Michael

 

[huskerfan]

MichaelLewis:

I just think a benevolent and all-powerful God would give us heaven right away. I see no reason to have anything less, if the best is possible. Why not just give up omnipotence? The problem of evil wouldn’t be a problem at all if this was simply the best God could do. Would that really be contrary to Christianity?

Michael

What about the lessons to be learned on Earth? I don’t see anything wrong with it. I put this on another thread today and I will repeat it. My husband was born with a disease that ended in his death at 43. The last 10 years could be said to be awful but he didn’t see in that way. He believed his life to be a gift from God. He truly felt that the result of evil and bad was good. He taught me such a tremendous amount and the same for so many others. His suffering brought out good. I don’t see an evil God in that. You ask questions that I honestly asked myself in younger years and now feel aren’t even important. Maybe I have just seen a different side of life. I don’t need to question God and what He does. I love Him and trust Him. My husband is in a wonderful place and that is all that matters…the end result of his suffering.

 

[MichaelLewis]

huskerfan:

What about the lessons to be learned on Earth? I don’t see anything wrong with it. I put this on another thread today and I will repeat it. My husband was born with a disease that ended in his death at 43. The last 10 years could be said to be awful but he didn’t see in that way. He believed his life to be a gift from God. He truly felt that the result of evil and bad was good. He taught me such a tremendous amount and the same for so many others. His suffering brought out good. I don’t see an evil God in that. You ask questions that I honestly asked myself in younger years and now feel aren’t even important. Maybe I have just seen a different side of life. I don’t need to question God and what He does. I love Him and trust Him. My husband is in a wonderful place and that is all that matters…the end result of his suffering.

Even if your husband had on ballence a positive experience, not everyone does. I’m thinking especially of children who can’t put suffering in a broader context.
In terms of learning lessons, why not just directly give us the wisdom in question, as opposed to forceing us to aquire it the hard way?

 

[huskerfan]

MichaelLewis:

Even if your husband had on ballence a positive experience, not everyone does. I’m thinking especially of children who can’t put suffering in a broader context.
In terms of learning lessons, why not just directly give us the wisdom in question, as opposed to forceing us to aquire it the hard way?

***BUT, ***what would be the value in that? Ok…we can go further with this…my nephew died at the age of 4 of leukemia. He had his moments of being down but for the most part he was the most happy-go-lucky kid. It was devastating to his parents and to our family but it also brought our family much closer together. My husband’s cousin’s little boy died of heart problems and was so positive because he knew he was going to heaven “to live with Jesus”. What is evil about any of this? Is there evil in the world? Absolutely, but the end result is good.

Do you really feel this is a valid debate or are you just arguing for the game? I’m not asking this in a nasty manner. I’m asking because I’m just not sure where you are coming from. I work in an ICU and I see incredibly sad things all the time but I have learned so much about love, compassion, giving etc…from them. I couldn’t learn them from a world that didn’t have difficulties. I think God knew what he was doing.

 

[MichaelLewis]

***BUT, ***what would be the value in that? Ok…we can go further with this…my nephew died at the age of 4 of leukemia. He had his moments of being down but for the most part he was the most happy-go-lucky kid. It was devastating to his parents and to our family but it also brought our family much closer together. My husband’s cousin’s little boy died of heart problems and was so positive because he knew he was going to heaven “to live with Jesus”. What is evil about any of this? Is there evil in the world? Absolutely, but the end result is good.

Do you really feel this is a valid debate or are you just arguing for the game? I’m not asking this in a nasty manner. I’m asking because I’m just not sure where you are coming from. I work in an ICU and I see incredibly sad things all the time but I have learned so much about love, compassion, giving etc…from them. I couldn’t learn them from a world that didn’t have difficulties. I think God knew what he was doing.

If God were all-powerful though, he wouldn’t have to bring good out of suffering. He could just produce the good, and not permit the suffering. Anyway, some people, children and adults, don’t die well. Surely you would agree with that? Think especially of very young children who have no concept of an afterlife to comfort them, or those who have died without the benefit of modern pain killers.

I don’t think that the arguement from evil is a serious threat to theism, but I do think it is a serious threat to any religion that claims God is both all-powerful and pefectly benevolent. I don’t think that Christianity needs to cling to both of those propositions, but most Christians claim to. Honesty, if I encountered an atheist who employed the arguement from evil (like the poster’s relatives), I would just remind him or her that that only excludes a particular conception of God. I often wonder why people presume that God has a value-structure they approve of. If he exists, he might even be a sadist (Not that I’m suggesting this is likely, given “The problem of Good”. ); who knows?
Michael

 

[huskerfan]

MichaelLewis:

If God were all-powerful though, he wouldn’t have to bring good out of suffering. He could just produce the good, and not permit the suffering. Anyway, some people, children and adults, don’t die well. Surely you would agree with that? Think especially of very young children who have no concept of an afterlife to comfort them, or those who have died without the benefit of modern pain killers.

I don’t think that the arguement from evil is a serious threat to theism, but I do think it is a serious threat to any religion that claims God is both all-powerful and pefectly benevolent. I don’t think that Christianity needs to cling to both of those propositions, but most Christians claim to. Honesty, if I encountered an atheist who employed the arguement from evil (like the poster’s relatives), I would just remind him or her that that only excludes a particular conception of God. I often wonder why people presume that God has a value-structure they approve of. If he exists, he might even be a sadist (Not that I’m suggesting this is likely, given “The problem of Good”. ); who knows?
Michael

Michael,

You aren’t my brother are you??? I have one by the same name who talks just like you.

Anyway, the problem here is that you don’t believe and I do. I believe that I’m right and you believe that you are right. Where does that leave us? On an endless typing debate or just disagreeing. My boss always says that we “agree to disagree”. How about we leave it at that. Like I said to you before…I asked myself some of the same things you have pointed out years ago. I over the years have evolved into just “knowing” and I know that came from God. I hope and pray that someday you can just “know” it too. Maybe you don’t want to hear that but at least I’m not thinking bad thoughts.

 

[john_doran]

MichaelLewis:

Because I can think of better options consistent with people being able to choose evil. (I have already described them.)

just because you can imagine them doesn’t mean they’re (logically) possible.